Changed tip, complete loss of spin?

[painfullyslow]

Let me preface this with the following:

I am a firm believer in "It's the Indian, not the arrow" as any decent player should be able to adapt to their equipment
I am not one of those searching for the latest piece of gear that is suddenly going to make me play like a pro
I am not a pro player, but know which end of the cue to hold.

With that said, here is my situation. I am working with a Cynergy shaft (which I really like) which up until recently had a Kamui Brown Soft on it which was the first tip on it since I replaced the original tip immediately. For me, I found that it tended to deform and glaze over very quickly but more importantly I was never in love with the hit. It had a 'pingy' type of feel, if that makes sense.

When the time came for a change, after asking around to some of the other players at/above my level I opted to replace it with a G2 Soft tip. I much prefer the feel of the hit of this tip; it was a lot more confidence inspiring and solid feeling hit with better feedback. The issue is that with this tip I am barely able to get any spin on the ball at all. For reference, with my old Kamui I was able to draw more than a full table with a medium draw stroke but with the G2 I can barely get it to go 80% of the table with my absolute best stroke and power. Both tips are shaped the same, same table/cloth/balls.

Has anyone else experienced something like this? The obvious answer is to go back to the Kamui but since I really don't care for the feel of the hit I would like to explore other options first. I feel like I definitely have better control over the spin on the G2 but those times when you need to really put some spin on the ball, it falls very short.

 

[garczar]

Let me preface this with the following:

I am a firm believer in "It's the Indian, not the arrow" as any decent player should be able to adapt to their equipment
I am not one of those searching for the latest piece of gear that is suddenly going to make me play like a pro
I am not a pro player, but know which end of the cue to hold.

With that said, here is my situation. I am working with a Cynergy shaft (which I really like) which up until recently had a Kamui Brown Soft on it which was the first tip on it since I replaced the original tip immediately. For me, I found that it tended to deform and glaze over very quickly but more importantly I was never in love with the hit. It had a 'pingy' type of feel, if that makes sense.

When the time came for a change, after asking around to some of the other players at/above my level I opted to replace it with a G2 Soft tip. I much prefer the feel of the hit of this tip; it was a lot more confidence inspiring and solid feeling hit with better feedback. The issue is that with this tip I am barely able to get any spin on the ball at all. For reference, with my old Kamui I was able to draw more than a full table with a medium draw stroke but with the G2 I can barely get it to go 80% of the table with my absolute best stroke and power. Both tips are shaped the same, same table/cloth/balls.

Has anyone else experienced something like this? The obvious answer is to go back to the Kamui but since I really don't care for the feel of the hit I would like to explore other options first. I feel like I definitely have better control over the spin on the G2 but those times when you need to really put some spin on the ball, it falls very short.

Just my $.02 here but i think a hard tip gives better spin, especially over longer distances. The extra speed lets the cb arrive quicker retaining more spin. I'm no scientist but i've seen this happen many times over the years. Try a harder tip. I really like the Thoroughbred in med-hard or hard. https://www.thoroughbredtips.com/

 

[painfullyslow]

Just my $.02 here but i think a hard tip gives better spin, especially over longer distances. The extra speed lets the cb arrive quicker retaining more spin. I'm no scientist but i've seen this happen many times over the years. Try a harder tip. I really like the Thoroughbred in med-hard or hard. https://www.thoroughbredtips.com/

Thank you for the insight, I appreciate it. I have thought of moving up on the hardness but my concern is losing the feel of the hit, especially with the CF shaft. It is my understanding (could be wrong, this is my first CF shaft) that the firmer tips become more hollow and 'pingy' like the Kamui was for me.

Do you play with a CF shaft with that med-hard tip?

My local guy who does my tip replacement only had a few options for brands so G2 was the obvious choice of what was available. I have since ordered a Zan Hybrid since I have read good things about them, and I believe those have a medium firmness. I can always give the G2 medium a try as well but was hesitant for obvious reasons.

I guess what I am searching for is the feel of the G2 that I am currently using with the spin of the Kamui. Actually, less would be fine as well as occasionally the cue ball would get away from me when using a lot of spin (but that is likely me, and not the tip) but not 50% less like I am currently experiencing.

 

[garczar]

Thank you for the insight, I appreciate it. I have thought of moving up on the hardness but my concern is losing the feel of the hit, especially with the CF shaft. It is my understanding (could be wrong, this is my first CF shaft) that the firmer tips become more hollow and 'pingy' like the Kamui was for me.

Do you play with a CF shaft with that med-hard tip?

My local guy who does my tip replacement only had a few options for brands so G2 was the obvious choice of what was available. I have since ordered a Zan Hybrid since I have read good things about them, and I believe those have a medium firmness. I can always give the G2 medium a try as well but was hesitant for obvious reasons.

No cf but a stiff Mezz HybridPro(1st version). I use a med-hard Thoroughbred and love it. You won't lose any feel. Everyone i know that got a cf shaft switched to harder tip.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Let me preface this with the following:

I am a firm believer in "It's the Indian, not the arrow" as any decent player should be able to adapt to their equipment
I am not one of those searching for the latest piece of gear that is suddenly going to make me play like a pro
I am not a pro player, but know which end of the cue to hold.

With that said, here is my situation. I am working with a Cynergy shaft (which I really like) which up until recently had a Kamui Brown Soft on it which was the first tip on it since I replaced the original tip immediately. For me, I found that it tended to deform and glaze over very quickly but more importantly I was never in love with the hit. It had a 'pingy' type of feel, if that makes sense.

When the time came for a change, after asking around to some of the other players at/above my level I opted to replace it with a G2 Soft tip. I much prefer the feel of the hit of this tip; it was a lot more confidence inspiring and solid feeling hit with better feedback. The issue is that with this tip I am barely able to get any spin on the ball at all. For reference, with my old Kamui I was able to draw more than a full table with a medium draw stroke but with the G2 I can barely get it to go 80% of the table with my absolute best stroke and power. Both tips are shaped the same, same table/cloth/balls.

Has anyone else experienced something like this? The obvious answer is to go back to the Kamui but since I really don't care for the feel of the hit I would like to explore other options first. I feel like I definitely have better control over the spin on the G2 but those times when you need to really put some spin on the ball, it falls very short.

When someone says they can draw a full table length, that means little unless you stipulate how far away the cue ball is from the object ball on the shot you are drawing. If it’s 1 to 3 feet away, that’s not all that impressive, but it it’s 5 to 7 feet away, that’s pretty darn good draw.

 

[smoochie]

I've heard this a lot here on AZB< "It's the Indian, not the arrow" !! but I have a big disagreement with this.

To me, it's the Indian & the arrow too.

I firmly believe in equipment giving you an edge. It is very hard to not see this and I cannot believe some people still say its the Indian and not the arrow for pool. I personally have real-life experience and observations where I can see equipment that is really good can boost someone's game immensely, even they don't realize it, and I can give you examples if you want.

Example #1

I know four guys who been playing forever, I know them for at least 20+ yrs and their game is at a plateau in a level which is not that great, they hardly runout unless its a Kozmo and they miss easy shots with zero improvements, their equipment is mostly just a whatever cue and a maple shaft. These old dudes are not into technology. However recently some of them switched to CF shafts, a Revo specifically, and all of a sudden their game jumped a few levels where they runout more consistently and reliably, they even run out some tough layouts. This happened in front of my eyes.

Other than these old dudes I know younger players who were also stalling in the game and suddenly when they changed to better equipment such as revo or cynergy, again their game jumped a few nothces, not just one notch. And the crazy part is when I confront them that their game jumped a few levels, their usual answer is "No, it's not the equipment, I been focusing more". Us humans usually love to give credit to ourselves and this is why I think most people think that their game jumped not due to equipment but it is due to practicing or focusing. But I firmly believe that they just can't see reality and they improvement due to equipment and them being focused or practicing more has nothing to do with it. And why do I know this? Because I observed them for YEAAAAAARS at the same level and I saw it time and time and timmmme again.

I am not here promoting the Revo or CF shafts, but truly I kept seeing this phenomenon happening and now I know that these people just weren't even good and now with this new technology/equipment they are FAAAAAAAR better and its not due to practice trust me, otherwise they'd be better from the old times when they were maple players.

Example #2

I've held myself few really really bad cues, where the shaft wood is very cheap with cheap tip, when you hit with that thing you cannot even draw the ball. Now hold a very high-end predator or custom cue and try to draw or follow, you will see the difference....so why argue with the "arrow" being able to boost your game? It's just beyond my undderstanding when someone argue this.

Again, it's the Indian & the arrow to me, not just that but the arrow in billiards is SOOOO important.

If you know a guy who's game is stalling or at platue for a very long time just do this experiment, give them a p3 with a revo shaft 12.4. Leave them just for a month or two and go back to them, you will see it.

Anyway, regarding your tip issue...It's probably the tip, either the batch is bad or probably you're not a G2 type of guy, similar to me! I hated G2, it's not my tip.. I can hardly accomplish enough spin with it but my friend swears by it, so it's a personal thing.

If I were you, i'd go with the default sniper tip for the cynergy, its an amazing tip for any CF shaft, I play with revo with a sniper and its truly amazing tip, try it.

 

[painfullyslow]

When someone says they can draw a full table length, that means little unless you stipulate how far away the cue ball is from the object ball on the shot you are drawing. If it’s 1 to 3 feet away, that’s not all that impressive, but it it’s 5 to 7 feet away, that’s pretty darn good draw.

I have absolutely no need nor desire to impress you or anyone. The statement was made as a gauge of measure, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[painfullyslow]

I've heard this a lot here on AZB< "It's the Indian, not the arrow" !! but I have a big disagreement with this.

To me, it's the Indian & the arrow too.

I firmly believe in equipment giving you an edge. It is very hard to not see this and I cannot believe some people still say its the Indian and not the arrow for pool. I personally have real-life experience and observations where I can see equipment that is really good can boost someone's game immensely, even they don't realize it, and I can give you examples if you want.

Example #1

I know four guys who been playing forever, I know them for at least 20+ yrs and their game is at a plateau in a level which is not that great, they hardly runout unless its a Kozmo and they miss easy shots with zero improvements, their equipment is mostly just a whatever cue and a maple shaft. These old dudes are not into technology. However recently some of them switched to CF shafts, a Revo specifically, and all of a sudden their game jumped a few levels where they runout more consistently and reliably, they even run out some tough layouts. This happened in front of my eyes.

Other than these old dudes I know younger players who were also stalling in the game and suddenly when they changed to better equipment such as revo or cynergy, again their game jumped a few nothces, not just one notch. And the crazy part is when I confront them that their game jumped a few levels, their usual answer is "No, it's not the equipment, I been focusing more". Us humans usually love to give credit to ourselves and this is why I think most people think that their game jumped not due to equipment but it is due to practicing or focusing. But I firmly believe that they just can't see reality and they improvement due to equipment and them being focused or practicing more has nothing to do with it. And why do I know this? Because I observed them for YEAAAAAARS at the same level and I saw it time and time and timmmme again.

I am not here promoting the Revo or CF shafts, but truly I kept seeing this phenomenon happening and now I know that these people just weren't even good and now with this new technology/equipment they are FAAAAAAAR better and its not due to practice trust me, otherwise they'd be better from the old times when they were maple players.

Example #2

I've held myself few really really bad cues, where the shaft wood is very cheap with cheap tip, when you hit with that thing you cannot even draw the ball. Now hold a very high-end predator or custom cue and try to draw or follow, you will see the difference....so why argue with the "arrow" being able to boost your game? It's just beyond my undderstanding when someone argue this.

Again, it's the Indian & the arrow to me, not just that but the arrow in billiards is SOOOO important.

If you know a guy who's game is stalling or at platue for a very long time just do this experiment, give them a p3 with a revo shaft 12.4. Leave them just for a month or two and go back to them, you will see it.

Anyway, regarding your tip issue...It's probably the tip, either the batch is bad or probably you're not a G2 type of guy, similar to me! I hated G2, it's not my tip.. I can hardly accomplish enough spin with it but my friend swears by it, so it's a personal thing.

If I were you, i'd go with the default sniper tip for the cynergy, its an amazing tip for any CF shaft, I play with revo with a sniper and its truly amazing tip, try it.

Thank you for the feedback. Although it is not the point of the post, I guess I should have stated 'the indian, not the arrow; within reason'. The arrow has to be straight. I agree that equipment *at some level* absolutely matters. Going from a cheaply made cue to any of the professional brands is a large jump. I guess I was assuming that it was understood that I was looking to compare apples to apples, not apples to volkswagens.

Anyway, as you mentioned maybe I am not a G2 player. I can tell you with absolute certainty that I am not a Sniper player as I did not care for the default tip on that cue at all.

No cf but a stiff Mezz HybridPro(1st version). I use a med-hard Thoroughbred and love it. You won't lose any feel. Everyone i know that got a cf shaft switched to harder tip.

Again, thank you for this. I guess I had it backwards and will try moving up to a more firm tip and see what results I get.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Thank you for the feedback. Although it is not the point of the post, I guess I should have stated 'the indian, not the arrow; within reason'. The arrow has to be straight. I agree that equipment *at some level* absolutely matters. Going from a cheaply made cue to any of the professional brands is a large jump. I guess I was assuming that it was understood that I was looking to compare apples to apples, not apples to volkswagens.

Anyway, as you mentioned maybe I am not a G2 player. I can tell you with absolute certainty that I am not a Sniper player as I did not care for the default tip on that cue at all.

Again, thank you for this. I guess I had it backwards and will try moving up to a more firm tip and see what results I get.

I experienced the glazing on Kamui tips which was bothersome. Then I switched to Kamui Clear Black
with a soft hardness rating. The glazing problem was pretty much eliminated & KCB is now on all my cues.

 

[The_JV]

My local guy who does my tip replacement only had a few options for brands so G2 was the obvious choice of what was available. I have since ordered a Zan Hybrid since I have read good things about them, and I believe those have a medium firmness. I can always give the G2 medium a try as well but was hesitant for obvious reasons.

It's been my short experience that Zan tips play on the harder side of the spectrum. So your Zan Hybrid (medium) will quickly turn closer to 'medium/hard' then stay where most would consider a 'medium'.

 

[ChrisinNC]

I have absolutely no need nor desire to impress you or anyone. The statement was made as a gauge of measure, nothing more, nothing less.

Don’t get me wrong - I was just trying to make the point that any meaningful gauge of measure on a draw shot requires stipulating how far the object ball is from the cue ball.

For example, personally, my draw shot sucks from any distance regardless of the tip I use. I’m lucky if I can hit a stop shot when the cue ball is 6 feet away from the object ball, but put me 18 inches from the object ball and I can get a table length or more of draw.

 

[painfullyslow]

any meaningful gauge of measure on a draw shot requires stipulating how far the object ball is from the cue ball.

No, it doesn't. The point was to convey that I could move the cue ball significantly less with the new tip. It should be evident that both shots were executed at the same distance for the sake of comparison, or the test would be meaningless.

If you do not have anything constructive to add to the actual topic (significantly less spin on a new tip, in case you were confused) then please look elsewhere for your entertainment.

 

[painfullyslow]

I experienced the glazing on Kamui tips which was bothersome. Then I switched to Kamui Clear Black
with a soft hardness rating. The glazing problem was pretty much eliminated & KCB is now on all my cues.

Nice to know that I am not the only one. I had actually wanted the Clear Black but he was out of them at the moment so I went with what he had...the Kamui Brown Soft. I did not realize that there was such a substantial difference between the two and may take another look at Kamui. Out of curiosity are you shooting with a CF shaft?

 

[painfullyslow]

It's been my short experience that Zan tips play on the harder side of the spectrum. So your Zan Hybrid (medium) will quickly turn closer to 'medium/hard' then stay where most would consider a 'medium'.

I appreciate the feedback! I have heard that as well but figured I would give it a shot as it seems that many seem to really like this tip.

 

[The_JV]

I appreciate the feedback! I have heard that as well but figured I would give it a shot as it seems that many seem to really like this tip.

When I switched up my gear and started playing with an Exceed (Mezz) cue, I adopted a Zan Soft on the wx700 shaft. That shaft is on the stiff side, and found I needed the soft tip to get the 'feel' I enjoyed with the demo I hit. This was coming from a predator Z2 with a rock hard tip.

I later bought a wx900 which is much closer to the Z2/Z3 shaft. I started out with a full medium Zan, and still needed to drop down to the medium/soft.

 

[SBC]

I experienced the glazing on Kamui tips which was bothersome. Then I switched to Kamui Clear Black
with a soft hardness rating. The glazing problem was pretty much eliminated & KCB is now on all my cues.

Exactly what I use...they are terrific for those who use a soft tip that doesn't change hardly at all over time.

 

[smoochie]

Don’t get me wrong - I was just trying to make the point that any meaningful gauge of measure on a draw shot requires stipulating how far the object ball is from the cue ball.

For example, personally, my draw shot sucks from any distance regardless of the tip I use. I’m lucky if I can hit a stop shot when the cue ball is 6 feet away from the object ball, but put me 18 inches from the object ball and I can get a table length or more of draw.

I kind of agree with him and i'll tell you why.

I also do get your point, a 5 to 7 ft draw shot will show you how solid a stroke is and how good a person draws, but he wasn't trying to get a good draw or practicing draw shots.

All he was doing is, measuring a difference of two cue/tips with the same exact shot, so therefore he has already SET a datum for his draw shot, even if it's not a difficult shot. This means he could set two of the same shots then try two tips with same speed/stroke, then he can conclude which one draws better, simple as this.

So yes he wasn't trying to do a difficult draw, just a measurement of two of the same draw with two different tips.

 

[smoochie]

Anyway, as you mentioned maybe I am not a G2 player. I can tell you with absolute certainty that I am not a Sniper player as I did not care for the default tip on that cue at all.

Again, thank you for this. I guess I had it backwards and will try moving up to a more firm tip and see what results I get.

Ok I kind of got your point with this, Sniper and G2 are both on the softer side for tips so if you dislike both there's a good chance that you're not a soft tip kind of guy. So my advise to you is try a HARD tip and see how that feels.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Nice to know that I am not the only one. I had actually wanted the Clear Black but he was out of them at the moment so I went with what he had...the Kamui Brown Soft. I did not realize that there was such a substantial difference between the two and may take another look at Kamui. Out of curiosity are you shooting with a CF shaft?

I only have maple shafts (12.75-13 mm) from the original cue maker for all my cues.
Switching to LD & CF shafts after 60 yrs. playing pool w/maple shafts doesn’t work.

I tried several and I don’t like the look and especially the feel of CF shafts. My cues’
shafts are pristine & feel better than any new shafts I’ve ever seen. Crocus cloth &
Renaissance Wax render the cue shafts like glass. Jewelers polish gold using crocus.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

New tips always play a little "mushy" to me in the first week.
I use med-hard one piece leather tips and after the " break in period" they all spin the ball about the same.