Murray, you may have already mentioned this, and if so forgive me, but what is/was it that you do in your other life? Meaning outside the pool world. You have some damn cool toys, and I wanna come down and play. And I won't even try to take them home with me. Maybe.
CNC lathe
- Thread starter Murray Tucker
- Start date
Hey Murray, love the machine your building there. I'm curious to what motors & board you are running? I'm assuming it's PC based.
I'm really considering automating a machine I have here for My first cnc, but not sure if the Xylotex board will be enough. They have a package with just over 400oz motors included. Do you know, Is that enough to run on linear slides? My slides are tight and smooth, altough I have not weighed anything yet, and have no idea what kind of torque I need. I read somewhere that the thread count on the ballscrews can play into that also.
I'm still learning about controllers and that looks like the easiest way to go. If I have to go to geckos then It seems as if that may become more involed & expensive for a first project then I would like. Plug and play would be nice, but as long as I don't have to solder and have access to documentation for setting up initially, and then adding & upgrading to extra boards & features later down the road, then I may could figure it out.
This is also open to anyone that feels like chiming in. I would apprietiate any recomendations on how to get the ball rolling, or what others are using.
Thanks Greg C
I'm really considering automating a machine I have here for My first cnc, but not sure if the Xylotex board will be enough. They have a package with just over 400oz motors included. Do you know, Is that enough to run on linear slides? My slides are tight and smooth, altough I have not weighed anything yet, and have no idea what kind of torque I need. I read somewhere that the thread count on the ballscrews can play into that also.
I'm still learning about controllers and that looks like the easiest way to go. If I have to go to geckos then It seems as if that may become more involed & expensive for a first project then I would like. Plug and play would be nice, but as long as I don't have to solder and have access to documentation for setting up initially, and then adding & upgrading to extra boards & features later down the road, then I may could figure it out.
This is also open to anyone that feels like chiming in. I would apprietiate any recomendations on how to get the ball rolling, or what others are using.
Thanks Greg C
Cue Crazy said:Hey Murray, love the machine your building there. I'm curious to what motors & board you are running? I'm assuming it's PC based.
I'm really considering automating a machine I have here for My first cnc, but not sure if the Xylotex board will be enough. They have a package with just over 400oz motors included. Do you know, Is that enough to run on linear slides? My slides are tight and smooth, altough I have not weighed anything yet, and have no idea what kind of torque I need. I read somewhere that the thread count on the ballscrews can play into that also.
I'm still learning about controllers and that looks like the easiest way to go. If I have to go to geckos then It seems as if that may become more involed & expensive for a first project then I would like. Plug and play would be nice, but as long as I don't have to solder and have access to documentation for setting up initially, and then adding & upgrading to extra boards & features later down the road, then I may could figure it out.
This is also open to anyone that feels like chiming in. I would apprietiate any recomendations on how to get the ball rolling, or what others are using.
Thanks Greg C
I bought one of those kits. The motors look to be fine. The board looks to be very light duty. Prolly fine if you want to play around with a Taig or Sherline. Spend the $ on the Gecko's
RBC
Deceased
Cue Crazy,
Don't hesitate to try the Xylotex boards. They are certainly not Gecko's, but for what we need them to do they are hard to beat. Xylotex offers an assembled 4 axis system that is pre-wired and set up with a power supply and all. Just add Mach3 and you are in business.
The secret is to keep in mind that stepper motors are strong at lower speeds and that power drops off considerably as the speed goes up. Our machines are always cutting with live tooling, like a router, so the cut load is extremely light by machining standards. Even these small steppers are more than strong enough to cut whatever you need to in pool cues. The only time you have to be careful is when you run the motors fast, which is when the machine is in a "rapid" move. This is usually just going from one place to another.
My first machine uses a 1/2x10 (.100" per revolution) acme thread screw and can only run 95 Inches per minute rapid speeds. This can take some time to get from one end to the other. My second and third machines use 5/8x5 ballscrews (.200" per revolution), which run much faster at about 225 IPM. My next machine will use a 5 start 1/2x10 screw which moves .500" per revolution. I expect rapids in the 400 IPM range.
Murray is right that Gecko's are certainly bigger and stronger than the Xylotex. Gecko's can also be used with many more types of stepper motors. But if you get the Xylotex system, it comes already assembled and setup so you don't even have to worry about buying any more stuff. All you have to do is plug it in.
I would be happy to help you if you have any questions. It might be easier to call me though, so feel free to.
Royce Bunnell
Obcues.com
Don't hesitate to try the Xylotex boards. They are certainly not Gecko's, but for what we need them to do they are hard to beat. Xylotex offers an assembled 4 axis system that is pre-wired and set up with a power supply and all. Just add Mach3 and you are in business.
The secret is to keep in mind that stepper motors are strong at lower speeds and that power drops off considerably as the speed goes up. Our machines are always cutting with live tooling, like a router, so the cut load is extremely light by machining standards. Even these small steppers are more than strong enough to cut whatever you need to in pool cues. The only time you have to be careful is when you run the motors fast, which is when the machine is in a "rapid" move. This is usually just going from one place to another.
My first machine uses a 1/2x10 (.100" per revolution) acme thread screw and can only run 95 Inches per minute rapid speeds. This can take some time to get from one end to the other. My second and third machines use 5/8x5 ballscrews (.200" per revolution), which run much faster at about 225 IPM. My next machine will use a 5 start 1/2x10 screw which moves .500" per revolution. I expect rapids in the 400 IPM range.
Murray is right that Gecko's are certainly bigger and stronger than the Xylotex. Gecko's can also be used with many more types of stepper motors. But if you get the Xylotex system, it comes already assembled and setup so you don't even have to worry about buying any more stuff. All you have to do is plug it in.
I would be happy to help you if you have any questions. It might be easier to call me though, so feel free to.
Royce Bunnell
Obcues.com
Last edited:
Murray Tucker said:
Thank Ya Sir,
Yeah, I was suprised one of the kits came with such big motors, and It had me somewhat confused. I have looked at small board kits on other sites, and they went nowhere near that much torque on the motors.
This platform I have here is very small, about 20 in. on the longest axis, so It's really just a way for me to break in to It, and experiement. It's kind of in the taig area as far as size, but The next will be much larger, more ridgid, and will cost alot more. I'll probably go with the geckos on It once I gain some more experience. I already know I don't want to get too cheap on that one, and really need to get some good ballscrews, because from what I've read you really have to worry about screw whip when you go with a longer axis, and want to run a higher speeds. same with the rails. I'll probably want to go with NSK style as you did, instead of the rods and bearings I have now, so that the middles will be nice and ridgid. The unit I have now is riggid, but It's small also, and sure that has alot to do with It.
I like how You slotted Your rails into the bottom plate, That's a very nice touch to tie them in.
Guess I'll go with that board for this one, since the price for plug and play is not too bad, but then again the kits that you finish yourself look easy enough also. It will take some time to build up the parts for the bad boy anyway, because I want It to be a super tight machine, and that takes alot more green to do.
Thanks Again, I really apprietiate You sharing Your thoughts.
Greg C
Hey many Thanks Royce,
You already confirmed most of what I was wondering, and It falls right in line with the imformation I have gathered thus far, but I'll definatly take a rain check on that call, because once I get everything setup, I'll be running into issues there that I don't fully understand yet.
I was already considering the Xylotex kit with one of the mach programs, and been getting into the screw pitch part. With My first setup's axis being so small, I was thinking the 1/2-10 should be enough, and should still be plenty fast enough as long as the board can handle the extended run times. On the other side though, when I start the other machine, I want some thicker ballscrews to run it. From everything I have read, and believe me the last 2 weeks I have really been pounding every bit of DIY and beginer info I could find online before I make the final decision, I keep coming back to this setup for what I have to work with at this time.
Thanks for comfirming. If I have to run at slower speeds then that's fine, It's better then standing over a pantograph all day and night if you want to get anything done. I've learned that altough I can do It, It's not much fun
I do have a couple of questions though.
Are delrin nuts really good enough on a short axis If you underdrill them? I'm using My slides as a pantomill now, and the runout is exceptable with no leadscrew even in there. I'm basically just going to reconfigure the machine, and build on mounts and screws for the motors, then add the drive box. Keep in mind that this is just My first machine, so I don't expect to mill metals or anything, and I realize that if I use delrin, ocasionally I'll have to replace them.
Also I read somewhere that It's possible to run different size lead screws, and reconfigure the program settings to adapt to the differences, any idea how hard that is, and can the same be done with the motors? The reason I ask this is because My panto uses a brand new milling attatchment for the Z simular to Chris's, and wondering if trying to adapt that would not be worth the trouble? I'm thinking It's probably not for My first machine, and I should build another Z, but I really don't know how hard It is to do. I have a whole other assembled Z, but It's wayyyy too big for this machine, and saving It for the second machine. I could build one easy enough, or buy a small preassembled slide, and add the motor and screw, but do want to spend as little as possible on this one, and if it's possible to adapt the milling attatchment without much technical stuff added to the software, or tuning It in, then I may would rather go that way. I'm trying to cut corners, without It being a total waste, or overcomplicating things, so I can save It for the next machine.
btw, Any suggestions on a easy to use drawing program that does'nt break the bank, and works well with mach
I already have a cpu plenty big enough, with XP to go with It, just need to pickup a hardrive because My brother has to have 5-6 in his system and swiped It
He reconfigured It, so I'm just going to buy one with a few more gigs.
Thanks again, I'm really starting to feel better about what I'm getting into, and some of what I've been wondering about before making the plunge.
Greg C
You already confirmed most of what I was wondering, and It falls right in line with the imformation I have gathered thus far, but I'll definatly take a rain check on that call, because once I get everything setup, I'll be running into issues there that I don't fully understand yet.
I was already considering the Xylotex kit with one of the mach programs, and been getting into the screw pitch part. With My first setup's axis being so small, I was thinking the 1/2-10 should be enough, and should still be plenty fast enough as long as the board can handle the extended run times. On the other side though, when I start the other machine, I want some thicker ballscrews to run it. From everything I have read, and believe me the last 2 weeks I have really been pounding every bit of DIY and beginer info I could find online before I make the final decision, I keep coming back to this setup for what I have to work with at this time.
Thanks for comfirming. If I have to run at slower speeds then that's fine, It's better then standing over a pantograph all day and night if you want to get anything done. I've learned that altough I can do It, It's not much fun
I do have a couple of questions though.
Are delrin nuts really good enough on a short axis If you underdrill them? I'm using My slides as a pantomill now, and the runout is exceptable with no leadscrew even in there. I'm basically just going to reconfigure the machine, and build on mounts and screws for the motors, then add the drive box. Keep in mind that this is just My first machine, so I don't expect to mill metals or anything, and I realize that if I use delrin, ocasionally I'll have to replace them.
Also I read somewhere that It's possible to run different size lead screws, and reconfigure the program settings to adapt to the differences, any idea how hard that is, and can the same be done with the motors? The reason I ask this is because My panto uses a brand new milling attatchment for the Z simular to Chris's, and wondering if trying to adapt that would not be worth the trouble? I'm thinking It's probably not for My first machine, and I should build another Z, but I really don't know how hard It is to do. I have a whole other assembled Z, but It's wayyyy too big for this machine, and saving It for the second machine. I could build one easy enough, or buy a small preassembled slide, and add the motor and screw, but do want to spend as little as possible on this one, and if it's possible to adapt the milling attatchment without much technical stuff added to the software, or tuning It in, then I may would rather go that way. I'm trying to cut corners, without It being a total waste, or overcomplicating things, so I can save It for the next machine.
btw, Any suggestions on a easy to use drawing program that does'nt break the bank, and works well with mach
I already have a cpu plenty big enough, with XP to go with It, just need to pickup a hardrive because My brother has to have 5-6 in his system and swiped It
He reconfigured It, so I'm just going to buy one with a few more gigs.Thanks again, I'm really starting to feel better about what I'm getting into, and some of what I've been wondering about before making the plunge.
Greg C
RBC said:
Cue Crazy said:Thank Ya Sir,
Yeah, I was suprised one of the kits came with such big motors, and It had me somewhat confused. I have looked at small board kits on other sites, and they went nowhere near that much torque on the motors.
This platform I have here is very small, about 20 in. on the longest axis, so It's really just a way for me to break in to It, and experiement. It's kind of in the taig area as far as size, but The next will be much larger, more ridgid, and will cost alot more. I'll probably go with the geckos on It once I gain some more experience. I already know I don't want to get too cheap on that one, and really need to get some good ballscrews, because from what I've read you really have to worry about screw whip when you go with a longer axis, and want to run a higher speeds. same with the rails. I'll probably want to go with NSK style as you did, instead of the rods and bearings I have now, so that the middles will be nice and ridgid. The unit I have now is riggid, but It's small also, and sure that has alot to do with It.
I like how You slotted Your rails into the bottom plate, That's a very nice touch to tie them in.
Guess I'll go with that board for this one, since the price for plug and play is not too bad, but then again the kits that you finish yourself look easy enough also. It will take some time to build up the parts for the bad boy anyway, because I want It to be a super tight machine, and that takes alot more green to do.
Thanks Again, I really apprietiate You sharing Your thoughts.
Greg C
I misread your first post. If you are retrofiting a macnine and want to play around with easy CNC then the Xylotex are fine. If you are building a machine from the ground up and spending the money for quality bearings, ball screws, etc. then the Gecko's would be the way to go.
Murray Tucker said:
It was kind of a 2 way question, and you answered It perfectly. I already have alot of parts for My second machine, and It will be more in the size of yours, with higher quality stuff, so I was asking for that also.It's going to be heavy, and need a better board and drivers. The z is simular to yours in shape with rails & blocks instead of rods, but it is surpluss equipment, altough good quality, and everything is already setup with pulleys and screw. even had an encoder motor and limit or homing switches on it, but the encoder on the motor has been removed. I wired it to a power supply & a power window switch to test, and It has plenty of torque to handle a router, but I will be upgrading the motor & mount. It's also really tight and ridgid, no play at all from what I can tell. I have a set of 4 blocks and rails also, but I need some for the longest axis. I have some long, large diameter rods, but I want to go with rails for a more ridgid setup. It would seem senseless to have them on all the other axis, and not the longest one where it probably counts the most..
The setup I'm thinking about using the Xyotex on now is pretty much the same as a small retrofit, only I'm using surpluss slide units, and may be easier to push then a mill conversion. The longest as I mentioned is actually about 24-25 inches total rod lenth, and Is a factory thompson type setup with a solid block carraige. It is very smooth, and plenty tight for what expect out of this machine. It was fitted with an actuator originally, but that has been stripped, or It's brand new like it looks, and never had it installed, so I do have to set a screw up for It. I have another smaller unit simular to It that's setup pretty much the same way, so I really just need to decide what I'm going to do for the z on it, set the motor mounts and screws up, and get to work on the controller & software. I'm using them manually now to cut inlays, and It cuts fairly tight with no glue lines if I get everything right when using It.
Anyway Thanks again, Greg C
RBC
Deceased
Cue Crazy,
You are certainly welcome to call anytime. Keep the phone number handy.
I use a xylotex with the 269oz motors to run one of Leonard Bludworth's 4 blade saw machines. This thing weighs 500 pounds easy and I can move it at 215 to 225 ipm without any problems. I use 5/8x5 ballscrews on it. I think I could move it faster if I underdrive the screws instead of 1 to 1.
For anti-backlash nuts go to dumpstercnc.com. You can get matching leadscrew from McMaster Car. I like these better than ballscrews because of how they deal with dust. Ballscrews are not anti-backlash even though many people think they are.
I use THK rails on all my machines, not round rods. As you said, they are to flexible.
A couple of other places to go to on the internet are:
cnczone.com You can read this forum for days!
machsupport.com Download the program and manual now. You can start to play with it even without a machine. The manual, printed out in a binder, is a must! Go to the support page and look at the videos. There are a bunch of them and they can help you to understand many of the confusing things about cnc.
Royce
www.obcues.com
214-497-9323
You are certainly welcome to call anytime. Keep the phone number handy.
I use a xylotex with the 269oz motors to run one of Leonard Bludworth's 4 blade saw machines. This thing weighs 500 pounds easy and I can move it at 215 to 225 ipm without any problems. I use 5/8x5 ballscrews on it. I think I could move it faster if I underdrive the screws instead of 1 to 1.
For anti-backlash nuts go to dumpstercnc.com. You can get matching leadscrew from McMaster Car. I like these better than ballscrews because of how they deal with dust. Ballscrews are not anti-backlash even though many people think they are.
I use THK rails on all my machines, not round rods. As you said, they are to flexible.
A couple of other places to go to on the internet are:
cnczone.com You can read this forum for days!
machsupport.com Download the program and manual now. You can start to play with it even without a machine. The manual, printed out in a binder, is a must! Go to the support page and look at the videos. There are a bunch of them and they can help you to understand many of the confusing things about cnc.
Royce
www.obcues.com
214-497-9323
RBC said:
Wow, If your running those on that thing then they should be plenty enough for this little setup I'm wanting to do now. Here I was looking at the 425 and 497oz motors. Big difference in price there, not to mention probably overkill also.
I've been all over cnczone, and it is a great site. I had the info on Mcmaster Car for the screws, but don't think I've seen the one you mentioned for the nut, I'll check that site out for sure. thanks for the tip.
I have seen the mach site, and that's one of the things I like is the access to all that info, because I'm definatly gonna need It.
The rails that I do have already for the second machine are even nsk or thk's I believe. The Z has small IKO's on It already though. Not sure how good those are, but the unit feels super tight as I mentioned before, and very smooth. Those would be cheap to replace with a better brand If I needed to. The z It'self will save me alot of machining even if I switched trucks and rails out.
I'll keep the number here, I really do apprietiate the offer very much. Now that I know this controller will work, I have a reason to pinch My pennies for one, and won't be scared to order..
I don't see many on the secondary market, so that even meant they burn up, or people are happy with them and not selling. Anytime I do see them they get snatched right up by someone.Thanks Again, Greg C
RBC
Deceased
Cue Crazy,
When you actually look at the torque curve of the larger motors, they do not do very well at speed. This is because of the high inductance. I used to run my small machine on 116oz motors at very nearly the same speeds. To make use of the big motors power, you really need to gear everything down. Even with the steep screw (1/2 x 10, 5 start) you still have 3200 motor steps per inch of travel when the motors are micro stepped. That means 1 step is equal to .0003125". Now, I will tell you, that is on paper. Your machine will not have that kind of control because of the mechanical side of things, but you get the idea.
If you ever find yourself in the Dallas area, call me and I will show you my machines.
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
When you actually look at the torque curve of the larger motors, they do not do very well at speed. This is because of the high inductance. I used to run my small machine on 116oz motors at very nearly the same speeds. To make use of the big motors power, you really need to gear everything down. Even with the steep screw (1/2 x 10, 5 start) you still have 3200 motor steps per inch of travel when the motors are micro stepped. That means 1 step is equal to .0003125". Now, I will tell you, that is on paper. Your machine will not have that kind of control because of the mechanical side of things, but you get the idea.
If you ever find yourself in the Dallas area, call me and I will show you my machines.
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
RBC said:
Thanks Royce,
That's brings up a last question, so your thinking I should use a pulley setup, that way I can change gear ratio, or is a coupler sufficient? I'm still reading into the steps, torque, and gear ratio side, and alittle weak in that area. I've had read info that falls in line with some of what you mentioned about It though, and one guy's running 5to1 while another guy may be running 1to1. Basically the more steps the more torque, but loss of speed correct, and the difference in the size of the motors arbor & the leadscrew play into that ratio? Does that mean I need to find the perfect balance that I can live with on both fronts or do I want to gear down for precision due to My application for inlay or 3d work should the inlay not work out tight enough? Looks like the one question turned into many, and I can probably find the other answers with some more research now that I have a better understanding of things.
I've known quite a few people from there, but I've never been to the lone star, In fact don't get away much at all anymore, but You never know, maybe someday I'll start moving about the states, and give you a ring If it looks like I'll be out that way.
I bet Your setup is very nice.I may need talk to you about other bussiness before long anyway. Word of mouth is starting to reach here finally, and may need to talk about some partials with you if possible.
I was very intrigued when you introduced the design on here, so anytime I hear anyone mention them, I'm all ears.Anyway, I don't want to take up anymore of Your time, I know It's valuble and I could go on for days
I really do apprietiate you taking some out to share & help me with all My questions. It's really been a huge help.Thanks again, Greg C
RBC
Deceased
Cue Crazy,
I wasn't really trying to say that you should use a belt and pulley setup. They are much more work to build than a direct coupling. They do, however give you some options later on if you determine that the pitch on your leadscrew is not what you really wanted.
Anyway, for simplicity sake, I would recommend no less lead than .100" per revolution. That is a 1/2x10 acme screw. Better would be a 2 start 1/2x10 acme screw that has a .200" lead. The leverage is better with a smaller lead, but they are not more efficient. a 5 start 1/2x10(.500" lead) is something like 75% efficient where as a single start 1/2x10 is more like 40% efficient. What you lose in leverage is more than made up by your stepper being much stronger at the new lower speed. I know this stuff can be confusing. I learned alot by reading Nook Industries website. www.nookindustries.com They list tons of information on all types of leadscrews.
Call me or email about the partials. Atlas will be carrying them for smaller quantities, but I will still sell them direct for larger quantities.
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
I wasn't really trying to say that you should use a belt and pulley setup. They are much more work to build than a direct coupling. They do, however give you some options later on if you determine that the pitch on your leadscrew is not what you really wanted.
Anyway, for simplicity sake, I would recommend no less lead than .100" per revolution. That is a 1/2x10 acme screw. Better would be a 2 start 1/2x10 acme screw that has a .200" lead. The leverage is better with a smaller lead, but they are not more efficient. a 5 start 1/2x10(.500" lead) is something like 75% efficient where as a single start 1/2x10 is more like 40% efficient. What you lose in leverage is more than made up by your stepper being much stronger at the new lower speed. I know this stuff can be confusing. I learned alot by reading Nook Industries website. www.nookindustries.com They list tons of information on all types of leadscrews.
Call me or email about the partials. Atlas will be carrying them for smaller quantities, but I will still sell them direct for larger quantities.
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
I can't Thank you enough Sir,
Yeah, I was thinking about the option in case I got the pitch wrong, and I was thinking I might be able to mill the mounting plates Myself but maybe I'll just go with the couplers at first, because I don't want to get too far ahead of Myself.
I checked out the site for the nut, and really slick how they work.
Thanks for the link on the leadscrew, I'll study that to get a better understanding.
Yes It is confusuing, each step of the way has been like that for me, I just keep chipping away learning alittle at a time, but still have alot to learn.
I expect It will still take some time for me to get things rolling, but when I do I will share the results.
Thanks again, Greg C
Yeah, I was thinking about the option in case I got the pitch wrong, and I was thinking I might be able to mill the mounting plates Myself but maybe I'll just go with the couplers at first, because I don't want to get too far ahead of Myself.
I checked out the site for the nut, and really slick how they work.
Thanks for the link on the leadscrew, I'll study that to get a better understanding.
Yes It is confusuing, each step of the way has been like that for me, I just keep chipping away learning alittle at a time, but still have alot to learn.
I expect It will still take some time for me to get things rolling, but when I do I will share the results.
Thanks again, Greg C
RBC said:
Murray Tucker said:
Machine cuts great. The only problem is the 1/2-10 Z axis lead screw gets whippy if I rapid too fast. I'm replacing it with a 1/2-2 5 start screw and I think it is time to put it to work.
I'm puzzled (no big surprise eh?). When you say 1/2-10 Z, are you referring to the long lead screw? How will 1/2-25 be less whippy? Is it because the root of the thread is not as deep? Is the thread an acme?Murray Tucker said:
I looked at your pic. I noticed the rails have a good bit of distance between them. I thought, that would give it more stability. Then I wondered, does the mass riding on them need to be balanced, so that each rail has equal weight?
Anyway, that is one very nice looking machine you have made.
RSB-Refugee said:
Yes. The Z axis for a lathe is the long one. Switching to a 2 pitch screw will let me slow the motor down and still get high travel speeds. With a 10 pitch screw you have to turn the motor 400 rpm to get 40 ipm of travel. With the 2 pitch you only have to turn it 80 rpm.
RSB-Refugee said:
If you notice the X axis hangs off the back of the machine quite a bit. The set up is very well ballanced.
RSB-Refugee said:
Just re-read this and noticed what caused the confusion. It is not a 1/2-25 screw. It is a 1/2-2 with 5 starts.
Murray Tucker said:
You may send me that old whippy lead screw (and nut of course), no sense having it clutter up your shop
I'm assuming it is a nice precision ball screw assembly ... I prefer very expensive free stuff Dave, a cheap bastage who put back a piece of gp acme rod the other day after it rang in at $50
