colin collenso vs charley bond on break

berlowmj

berlowmj

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Bridge
Charley includes the rail bridge as an option. Can Colin's power techniques be implemented using the rail bridge?

Follow through
Charley suggests that we "freeze" on the follow through & drive the tip through the table (not literally of course) while Colin suggests rising on the follow through.

Colin's suggestion to Move the grip forward from the butt is supported by the heavier bench press possible on the power rack. Should the grip be even farther forward than it is while stroking regular shots?
 
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berlowmj...<<Should the grip be even farther forward than it is while stroking regular shots?>>

I don't think so...not for "regular shots." Just watch the top pros...virtually none of whom "choke up" except on rare occasions.

Allison does on very soft and/or certain shots where EXTREME accuracy is required....but GENERALLY...you will find that the vast majority of top pros will have their upper/lower arms at a 90 degree angle at the moment of tip-to-ball contact which would not be possible with a choked up grip...unless they REALLY crowded the CB ball with their stance.

Regards,
Jim
 
I'm sorry. My phrasing was clumsy. I'm really asking how far the grip should be moved forward on the break? i.e. should the grip on the break be as far forward as it is on the regular stroke.
 
berlowmj said:
Bridge
Charley includes the rail bridge as an option. Can Colin's power techniques be implemented using the rail bridge?

Follow through
Charley suggests that we "freeze" on the follow through & drive the tip through the table (not literally of course) while Colin suggests rising on the follow through.

Colin's suggestion to Move the grip forward from the butt is supported by the heavier bench press possible on the power rack. Should the grip be even farther forward than it is while stroking regular shots?
Click to expand...

I mention in the video that my open bridge method is simply my preference and that the same techniques can be incorporated for a closed bridge.

The rising of the cue in my follow through is partly from the cue bouncing off the bridge but also due to the force being applied by the wrist to the cue as I tighten the wrist strongly during impact to flick it forward for greater speed.

With a little practice this upward lift can be reduced. Also, having a loop bridge will eliminate most of this lift.

I try not to drive the cue through the CB downward toward the table, as is seen in the style of break that Mike Sigel uses. The main reason is that the CB will rarely stay on the table at the speed I am hitting it using this technique.

But if using a 70-80% power break going for accuracy, then it wouldn't hurt to hit down through the CB a little more.

btw: The break video is in my instruction section at the website below.
Colin

edit- Note: The power break is mostly useful for 8-ball, where CB positioning after the break is not so crucial, and when making a ball on the break can be quite difficult without exploding the pack apart.

It might also be useful in 10-ball, where making a ball on the break is more difficult than in 9-ball.
 
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Regarding the grip hand position:

When breaking using the technique I suggested, the power generating muscles are mainly the pecs and delts. Moving the grip hand forward puts the extension of these muscles into a more intermediate position, which makes them stronger. Moving too far forward is going to eventually put them into a less powerful position...or just make stroking the shot more difficult.

In normal playing mode, the muscles that drive the movement are basically the biceps muscles that creat flexion at the elbow. To place the biceps at an intermediate position of extension requires a different biomechanical analysis. The intermediate or stronger position seems to correlate with the grip hand being further back.

However, if one is stroking a normal shot for power, they can lift up a bit and bring the upper arm flexors into play. Then the shorter grip could assist.

Colin
 
Breaking ...

I have noticed Pros that 'choke up' a little when breaking. I, myself, choke up and inch or two when breaking, and shorten my bridge slightly. I will tell you what this does for you:

1) You get just as much power with MORE ACCURACY.
2) It assists in keeping your body from raising up BEFORE you make contact with the cue ball. Some players start a body rise even before they hit the cue ball, which often produces erratic results.

My break, and I break hard, used to be like a horizontal slidge hammer sort of with a half circle type effect through the motions which allowed me to get all the power into it. I revamped my break, patterned after Bustamante's break on motion, except I do not use the long bridge like he uses.
 
Colin Colenso said:
Regarding the grip hand position:
I really suck and can't play a lick. You can use your imagination about how I really experiment with my grip hand.
Colin
Click to expand...
Man you're sick. :eek:
 
Colin Colenso said:
...When breaking using the technique I suggested, the power generating muscles are mainly the pecs and delts...
Click to expand...
Hi Colin,

I practiced your technique the other day, or a reasonable facsimile, and did see an immediate improvement. Thanks again and I look forward to working on it further. Surprisingly, it really wasn't too hard to hit pretty close to center ball most of the time.

I was wondering if you or anyone has any advice on strengthening the relevant muscles, not only for breaking but for general play. I tried pushups a while back but developed a severe swoop, where I literally had difficulty putting right-english on the ball. Apparently you work out quite a bit and it hasn't produced any undesirable results, perhaps because of a more balanced regime.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Jim
 
Your ability to construct prose that are as explicit as your video is awesome. One more question. I use the loop bridge for regular stroking (i.e. non-break shots) but I found it easier to control the longer bridge by using the rail bridge grip. Is this a viable option or shall I persist with the loop bridge until I can control the lengthier bridge while breaking?

P.S. You are obviously no stranger to powerlifting.
 
Jal said:
Hi Colin,

I practiced your technique the other day, or a reasonable facsimile, and did see an immediate improvement. Thanks again and I look forward to working on it further. Surprisingly, it really wasn't too hard to hit pretty close to center ball most of the time.

I was wondering if you or anyone has any advice on strengthening the relevant muscles, not only for breaking but for general play. I tried pushups a while back but developed a severe swoop, where I literally had difficulty putting right-english on the ball. Apparently you work out quite a bit and it hasn't produced any undesirable results, perhaps because of a more balanced regime.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Jim
Click to expand...
Hi Jim,
Yeah push ups work most of the muscles involved very well.

You may have got a bit of a pump / stiffness, related to what is called Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness (DOMS) which can last a few days when the muscles aren't used to training. With regular training this will go away, so long as you don't try to play too soon after a hard workout.

For the lower body and back I'd suggest some squat leaps (if you don't have gym equipment). Also, for the lower back some bending and twisting with dumbells or improvised weights will help.

Also add some bicep curls.

A wide range of exercises to balance development is better.

If you can, avoid high impact exercises and exercise with slow movements where possible to avoid tendon strain.

Hope that helps,
Colin

edit: Oh, also add some wrist strengthening exercises. A dumbell would be helpfull for just flexing back and forth at various angles. Or you could tie a can or two of beans to the end of an old cue, hold it at one end and move it up and down varying your wrist position.
 
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berlowmj said:
Your ability to construct prose that are as explicit as your video is awesome. One more question. I use the loop bridge for regular stroking (i.e. non-break shots) but I found it easier to control the longer bridge by using the rail bridge grip. Is this a viable option or shall I persist with the loop bridge until I can control the lengthier bridge while breaking?

P.S. You are obviously no stranger to powerlifting.
Click to expand...
Sure, I think the rail bridge can work ok with practice. It's good to have options.

Yes, I was into power type lifting for years as part of track and field training. These days I'm a relative weakling. I was once over 250lbs in weight (a bit of fat thrown in for good measure) and doing deadlifts of 500+ lbs and bench presses over 320lbs.:D

Still, much of power is technique, but strength helps.

Colin
 
Colin Colenso said:
Sure, I think the rail bridge can work ok with practice. It's good to have options.

Yes, I was into power type lifting for years as part of track and field training. These days I'm a relative weakling. I was once over 250lbs in weight (a bit of fat thrown in for good measure) and doing deadlifts of 500+ lbs and bench presses over 320lbs.:D

Still, much of power is technique, but strength helps.

Colin
Click to expand...

Well the girls are much lighter and easier to kidnap in China aren't they ;)
 
berlowmj said:
Bridge
Charley includes the rail bridge as an option. Can Colin's power techniques be implemented using the rail bridge?
Click to expand...

Not sure....

Follow through
Charley suggests that we "freeze" on the follow through & drive the tip through the table (not literally of course) while Colin suggests rising on the follow through.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't "rising" or "driving the tip through the table" affect the CB direction after contact? It seems to me "rising" would have a tendency to make the CB roll forward, while Bond's idea would cause the CB to either stop or come backwards. Personally, I use Charley's technique and it results in a near center table stop on a consistent basis, so long as everything else about my technique is correct. "Rising", for me, makes the CB take off forward through the rack and away from the one, if it stays up.

Colin's suggestion to Move the grip forward from the butt is supported by the heavier bench press possible on the power rack. Should the grip be even farther forward than it is while stroking regular shots?
Click to expand...

I personally move my hand backwards on the break cue, to get (what I perceive as) more weight of the cue forward, as opposed to being nearer the balance point of the cue. To me, this gives me more power in breaking, if what I'm trying to accomplish is a harder break. I don't change the position of the left arm at all. As far as location of the CB is concerned, I break from wherever I want to, on the rail, on the table, et cetera, but always with a closed bridge for a tighter accuracy.

Just my measly $.02.... $:^)
 
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