Complaint Filed?

av84fun said:
jjinfla...<<Has any of the 200 IPT players even bothered to go to the police, or call up the States Attorney's office, and file a complaint?>>

Trust me on this. Until serious PROOF is obtained, this is primarily a CIVIL contract matter, not a criminal matter. If any criminal conduct appears to be established during any civil suit then the plaintiff's attorney would be the appropriate party to notifiy the state and/or federal authorities.

<<If no one files a complaint then there is no crime. There has to be a victim.>>

That is incorrect. The authorities can and often to file actions on their own initiative.

Finally, if you accuse someone of criminal conduct and then cannot prove that it is true, you can be found guilty of defamation and the offended party would not even have to prove damages. Damages would be presumed.

Not a criticism at all. KT disgusts me....Just advice to be cautious.

Finally, as I remarked in another post, NYC Dude has informed us that he has started the legal ball rolling and it seems to me that he should be taken at his word.

Regards,
Jim
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You seem well informed and intelligent.

Do you know that before the police can file felony charges against anyone in Chicago they have to have a States Attorney look over the charges and approve them.

Yes a person may get arrested by the police when there is no victim, it happens daily, but then if the victim does not show in court, or does not want to press the issue, the case is discharged. That also happen daily.

I suggested that if an IPT player thinks he has been wronged he should consult with an attorney. If he thinks there was something that violated the criminal statutes then his attorney would be the States Attorney. He would be the one who would explain if there was or was not a cause of action. It would be free. No cost at all to the player.

However, I have no idea which States Attorney. The one in the State where the alleged act was committed? The one where the alleged offeder/company resides? Or the one where the alleged victim resides? And more than likely no matter which one you go to he will point to one of the other two as having jurisdiction. Pool? Who the hell cares about pool. It's election time I want a good politician to prosecute.

Right now I do not even know if the IPT did anything illegal. Sure it is a travesty that all those players have not been paid but was it just a bad business venture or was it intentional? What was the intent?

If no victim wants to persue the matter then nothing will happen and I suggest we just all forget about it and go on our merry way and wait for the next sugar daddy to come along. It sure is not worth any aggravation to me. Just chalk it up to experience and remember to post the money next time. How many times have we heard that expression. Just don't post it under the table - right Lil John.

Of course the players have to take some responsibility too. Afterall, how long would a reasonable person expect someone to keep giving them a free ride? Surely everyone involved could see, or should have seen, that there was a lot of money going out and not very much coming in. Surely at some time they all said I will ride the wave as long as it lasts. Hopefully, I will come out ahead. They were taking a chance.

The fact of the matter is that if you look at the IPT from the very beginning until right now just about all of the players came out ahead or broke even. They sure did get to enjoy the limelight. How many times has Jam voiced that? Maybe some of the really big winners will share their winnings with those not so fortunate - that will be the day. But every one of them had the chance to be in Hohman's place.

Jake
 
Fleece3 said:
WOW!! Now that is an interesting read. If you go by this...is any of this really his fault?
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Wow. He owned a dealership. I wonder if he will help me buy a new car?

I don't care what his past is if he will just save me some money and get me a good deal.

Oh wait, I think I am starting to think like the pool players did when they joined the IPT.

Have I really sunk that low?

Maybe it is time to take up another game/hobby.

Jake
 
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IMHO if the IPT players are paid or not paid it will continue to reflect the resilliancy of our sport.

This is relative to the passion that links us all together, we love the challenge of the game.

Our professionals are the most nobel of all sport's players. We will play for very little money, and even enjoy a win if we do not get paid. Not to say we won't be upset for not recieving the money (reward), but we still go home knowing we withstood the challenge and won.

Now, when it comes to business we should not think our sport is jinxed or has been hexed. I belive it will just take more than any one individual to bring our sport into the grand scheme of professional sports.

I think people like Jay, Miz (God bless his family), Grady and many others, all who have done our sport right (with little or no return for themselves) should create a coalition based of what they have learned from promoting and present it to the players (sport at large).

Then, maybe our sport will have a chance with big time sponsors. Until then we should all be appreciative of those that have and I am sure will continue to promote our sport.

Exception - not doing business with people (or company reps) that lie.

My point is, pool players and promoters are showing they are above the image that has plaqued our sport as being degeneratee or less than worthy. Contrary to let's say 20 years ago, the hustler image is gone for one simple reason - there is no action beacuse players have gotten smarter. I think the history books will prove this true.
 
Fleece3 said:
WOW!! Now that is an interesting read. If you go by this...is any of this really his fault?
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You know what is strange, in all the reading I have done on the guy and it is a lot. No where is there ever a mention of any kind of personal relationships. Be it a girl friend or boy friend, he doesn't seem to have personal relationships to other people at all. Is he ever with anyone at the tournaments or is there an ex-wife somewhere he hides? I think everything about the guy is strange, you don't know what he is going to do from one day to the next, ever, I don't think he does.
 
macguy said:
You know what is strange, in all the reading I have done on the guy and it is a lot. No where is there ever a mention of any kind of personal relationships. Be it a girl friend or boy friend, he doesn't seem to have personal relationships to other people at all. Is he ever with anyone at the tournaments or is there an ex-wife somewhere he hides? I think everything about the guy is strange, you don't know what he is going to do from one day to the next, ever, I don't think he does.
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He was walking around Reno with a VERY hot blonde (at least from 30 feet)-killer body. Money/fame talks. Who knows , she may even believe that Billionaire crap.
 
Nostroke said:
He was walking around Reno with a VERY hot blonde (at least from 30 feet)-killer body. Money/fame talks. Who knows , she may even believe that Billionaire crap.
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You could have a $Billion , a $Million or $500 and she's still gonna get only $200....... IF she's lucky.
Doug
( Rent-A-Blonde )
 
Smorgass Bored said:
You could have a $Billion , a $Million or $500 and she's still gonna get only $200....... IF she's lucky.
Doug
( Rent-A-Blonde )
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Could be- They did have those shills in the audience.
 
jjinfla...<<You seem well informed and intelligent.>>

Thank you. I appreciate that.

<<Do you know that before the police can file felony charges against anyone in Chicago they have to have a States Attorney look over the charges and approve them.>>

With respect, that is not correct. The police do not "file felony charges." The police can arrest you but that cannot file charges against you. Charges can only be filed by the SA.

Please note that the STATE can file criminal charges against anyone they choose without a complaint from a citizen. It happens all the time. Such charges are filed on behalf of the citizens of the state...which is why criminal complaints are entitled...The People vs. Joe Jones.

<<Yes a person may get arrested by the police when there is no victim, it happens daily, but then if the victim does not show in court, or does not want to press the issue, the case is discharged. That also happen daily.>>

Not being argumentative with you...honest...just trying to shed light. Your statement is contradictory.

First you state that police can arrest people "when there is no victim" and then you state that charges get dismissed if the victim doesn't show up in court.

Please note that there can be no crime if there is no victim...but sometimes, the "victim" is the citizenry of the state and sometimes the "victim" is not damaged in any way...such as ATTEMPTED fraud charges where the scheme failed. Just because no one loses money when a fraud is attempted does not mean the the attempt is not a crime. The same holds true for a traffic offense known as reckless endangerment...which can be either a Class 1 misdemeanor or a felony depending on the severity of the incident and depending on various state laws. For example, if you intentionally try to run someone over with your car...and MISS...you can still be charged with reckless endangerment.

<<The fact of the matter is that if you look at the IPT from the very beginning until right now just about all of the players came out ahead or broke even.>>

I don't think that either one of us has the exact statistics but "just about all" suggests a VERY high percentage...like 95% or more. Given the expenses of traveling to Reno...including air fare, hotel room, food etc. and since ONE QUARTER of these contestants were qualifiers who paid serious money to qualify...I personally doubt that "nearly all" of the players broke even.

I generally agree with the balance of your post...especially your remark that you don't know whether any criminal conduct was commited. Neither do I. There is certainly the APPEARANCE of very objectionable conduct but accusing people of crimes is a dangerous business regarding which you can be sued for defamation. It's just a "bad percentage" to do so.

Regards,
Jim
 
IF any tournament for which the IPT accepted entry fees or from which IPT earned substantial other income does not take place within a reasonable time frame from when it was advertised/published to take place and if the published/promised/contracted/guaranteed prizes are not paid out within a reasonable time frame after completion of the tournament or if the tournament is cancelled and refunds are not made in a reasonable time frame.........there might in due course at those points in time be grounds for a complaint to the police.....but IMHO,on all known circumstances to date there would not be the proverbial snowballs chance in hell of KT being charged or convicted of any criminal offence unless someone pretty far up the food chain in IPT were to "turn" and come forward with some hard irrefutable evidence of premeditated intent to defraud

Failing that this will be very easy to put down as a failed business attempt which is all it might very well be anyway.
 
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Al due respect to the above posters, I will go out on a limb and say I believe multiple frauds/crimes have been committed here. It is not just failing to pay prize money. It is the continuation of fraudulent activity with full knowledge no payment (or consideration) will be forthcoming.

What makes all this most serious is they used the wire (phone lines) to collect monies (from credit cards) across state lines. There is ample evidence in case law that makes such acts federal offenses.

KT's prior history will also make him a person of interest to the Feds. I just hope someone files and many players go to their respective State Attorneys. If they do, someone will haul KT (and Dingo) into court.

And it is not all bad for Pool either. Maybe the best thing for this sport is to be thrust into the national headlines. "I don't care what you say about me, just spell my name right". Errol Flynn
 
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Smorgass Bored said:
You could have a $Billion , a $Million or $500 and she's still gonna get only $200....... IF she's lucky.
Doug
( Rent-A-Blonde )
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Do you yhink she got stiffed?:rolleyes:
 
jay helfert said:
Al due respect to the above posters, I will go out on a limb and say I believe multiple frauds/crimes have been committed here. It is not just failing to pay prize money. It is the continuation of fraudulent activity with full knowledge no payment (or consideration) will be forthcoming.
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You are exactly right!!! The tough part of a case would be.....

"with full knowledge no payment (or consideration) will be forthcoming"

You have to PROVE that, not just suspect. Without a memo, wiretap (legally obtained), or an associate (not a fired ex employee) willing to state in open court (and without facing jail time) that that is the case here, your case would be DOA.
 
A course of action such as suing KT directly might help players gain any losses they incurred for their cost of participation in IPT.

Charging the IPT of fraud would not provide reason for payment to any victim. The IPT could be charged and fined to the extent of the law.

Criminial prosecutions dont pay back victims they pay the government who handles the bulk of the work.

Nothing has to be proved the judge has to believe you are in the right and they are in the wrong. Evidence would be helpful, but I've seen cases get argued on word of mouth and thats enough to award compensation.
 
Keep in mind that when you are in a criminal court the burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt, or 99 44/100%

In a civil court the burden of proof is preponderance of evidence or more likely than not or 51% to say 77% that he did it.

The OJ case is a good example. The jury in the criminal court could not find overwhelming proof he was guilty of the crime. But the jury in a civil court found enough evidence to prove him guilty. Winning a judgement is not the same as receiving the money decreed in the judgement.

The civil court jury found against OJ and he was ordered to pay a whole lot of money to the family. So far the only people who have received money from OJ are his lawyers.

I keep looking at my birth certificate and nowhere on it does it state that life is fair.

Jake
 
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jjinfla...<<The jury in the criminal court could not find overwhelming proof he was guilty of the crime.>>

I get your point and agree with it but I just couldn't let the above comment go. In fact, the jury DID have overwhelming evidence of Simpson's guilt but elected not to convict him in part due to the incredibly inept prosecution.
 
jjinfla said:
I keep looking at my birth certificate and nowhere on it does it state that life is fair.

Jake
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its in the small print at the bottom - it's an acronymn for
'fornication aftereffect in repair' .... ROFL
 
av84fun said:
jjinfla...<<The jury in the criminal court could not find overwhelming proof he was guilty of the crime.>>

I get your point and agree with it but I just couldn't let the above comment go. In fact, the jury DID have overwhelming evidence of Simpson's guilt but elected not to convict him in part due to the incredibly inept prosecution.
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How right you are there. They were so inept that their ineptness made them millionaires. Dardon and what's her face.

I always wanted to write a book titled:

It pays to be incompetent.

It seems the more incompetent the more the person is rewarded.

Simple example: a person cannot complete his task in the alloted time so the company makes him/her work overtime and pays him/her overtime.

Jake
 
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