Confused about Balkline...

[SlickRick_PCS]

Ok, please forgive me if my wording is very aukward (yes, English is my first language and Spanish is my second... and yes... I am Hispanic going for French as my 3rd language and Dutch and German as my intermediate 4th and 5th languages when I head to California next summer. ) but when I see Xavier G. play balkline, I wonder how is it that a balk is or is not a foul? For instance: say that all three balls are on a corner section of a balk zone. When the game is... say... 47cm.2, is the 2 like one straight rail carom and then the next shot, one ball has to be out of the balk zone or is it two straight rail caroms (even though I got the ideal answer already, I still need more elaboration)? Another thing that catches me is that when a ball is out of the balk zone and comes right back into the same balk zone, does this mean that it is still a valid shot and a reset to 2 again?

I hope you guys can catch my drift here..... if not, please reply back for more elaboration.

 

[mbvl]

Ok, please forgive me if my wording is very aukward (yes, English is my first language and Spanish is my second... and yes... I am Hispanic going for French as my 3rd language and Dutch and German as my intermediate 4th and 5th languages when I head to California next summer. ) but when I see Xavier G. play balkline, I wonder how is it that a balk is or is not a foul? For instance: say that all three balls are on a corner section of a balk zone. When the game is... say... 47cm.2, is the 2 like one straight rail carom and then the next shot, one ball has to be out of the balk zone or is it two straight rail caroms (even though I got the ideal answer already, I still need more elaboration)? Another thing that catches me is that when a ball is out of the balk zone and comes right back into the same balk zone, does this mean that it is still a valid shot and a reset to 2 again?

I hope you guys can catch my drift here..... if not, please reply back for more elaboration.

Let's stick with your example of 47.2. Only the two object balls count. When both object balls are within a balk area, only 2 caroms are allowed while both object balls remain within the balk area. To continue the run, after the second (or first) carom, one (or both) of the object balls must leave the balk area. The ball (or balls) may return to the same balk area, but must have crossed the line into another area. If the two object balls lie in different balk areas (say, stradling a balk line), then any number of caroms are allowed. It is only when both object balls come to rest within a single balk area that the 2 carom limitation comes into play. Specifically, if either of the two object balls leaves the balk area, even if it then returns to the same balk area, the counter is reset to 2.

Mark

 

[GordonRamsay]

yeah.. that vid is confusing... normally I can pick up the rules but I was wondering about that fouling too..

 

[SlickRick_PCS]

Only the two object balls count.

OH, but I always thought that the cueball was part of the deviation when it needs to be on another balk zone, so it's the object balls then that have to be out of the zone that they're in.

When both object balls are within a balk area, only 2 caroms are allowed while both object balls remain within the balk area. To continue the run, after the second (or first) carom, one (or both) of the object balls must leave the balk area. The ball (or balls) may return to the same balk area, but must have crossed the line into another area. If the two object balls lie in different balk areas (say, stradling a balk line), then any number of caroms are allowed. It is only when both object balls come to rest within a single balk area that the 2 carom limitation comes into play. Specifically, if either of the two object balls leaves the balk area, even if it then returns to the same balk area, the counter is reset to 2.
Mark

So then say if the two object balls are on a balk area on a game of 71.2, is it one carom, two carom, then an exile of an object ball out of the area on the next shot or is it one carom, then exile of an object ball?

Thanks, Mark!

 

[mbvl]

OH, but I always thought that the cueball was part of the deviation when it needs to be on another balk zone, so it's the object balls then that have to be out of the zone that they're in.



So then say if the two object balls are on a balk area on a game of 71.2, is it one carom, two carom, then an exile of an object ball out of the area on the next shot or is it one carom, then exile of an object ball?

Thanks, Mark!

On re-reading my other post, I see that I wasn't completely clear, so I'll try again.

At 47.2, if both object balls are within the same balk area (it's the base of the ball that determines where the ball is), only one carom is allowed which does not move one of the two balls out of that area. On the second carom one of the balls must leave that area. If the ball returns to the area, the counter is reset.

At 47.1, if both object balls are within the same balk area, no carom is allowed that leaves both object balls within that area. So 47.1 is much, much harder than 47.2. In the Gretillat video notice how often he uses his "free" carom to set up the balls in a better position to drive one of them out. At 47.1 that option is not available since there is no "free" carom.

When the two object balls are in different balk areas there is no limitaion as to how many caroms can be made in a row. Notice how often he tries to straddle a balk line and gently nudge both balls while keeping them on opposite sides of the line. This technique can be used in both 47.2 and 47.1.

One final note: notice that, where one of the balk lines parallel to a cushion meets a cushion, there is another small box drawn. These are sometimes called anchors, but they are just additional balk areas. Again, at 47.2, only one carom is allowed that leaves both object balls within the anchor. This is to prevent the player from straddling a balk line close to a cushion and making very long series' using the cushion to help keep the balls close to each other. (In the video I thought I saw him make two free caroms within an anchor -- I'll watch again to make sure. It's possible that for the sake of the exhibition he wasn't applying the anchor rule, but why even draw them then?)

Edit: I watched it again and it's not absolutely clear. Very near the beginning of part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enIxM0QJpZw at the 0:24 mark he get both objects balls inside an anchor. On the second carom (at about 0:40) I question whether the white ball is really "over the line".

Mark

 

[SlickRick_PCS]

On re-reading my other post, I see that I wasn't completely clear, so I'll try again.

At 47.2, if both object balls are within the same balk area (it's the base of the ball that determines where the ball is), only one carom is allowed which does not move one of the two balls out of that area. On the second carom one of the balls must leave that area. If the ball returns to the area, the counter is reset.

At 47.1, if both object balls are within the same balk area, no carom is allowed that leaves both object balls within that area. So 47.1 is much, much harder than 47.2. In the Gretillat video notice how often he uses his "free" carom to set up the balls in a better position to drive one of them out. At 47.1 that option is not available since there is no "free" carom.

When the two object balls are in different balk areas there is no limitaion as to how many caroms can be made in a row. Notice how often he tries to straddle a balk line and gently nudge both balls while keeping them on opposite sides of the line. This technique can be used in both 47.2 and 47.1.

One final note: notice that, where one of the balk lines parallel to a cushion meets a cushion, there is another small box drawn. These are sometimes called anchors, but they are just additional balk areas. Again, at 47.2, only one carom is allowed that leaves both object balls within the anchor. This is to prevent the player from straddling a balk line close to a cushion and making very long series' using the cushion to help keep the balls close to each other. (In the video I thought I saw him make two free caroms within an anchor -- I'll watch again to make sure. It's possible that for the sake of the exhibition he wasn't applying the anchor rule, but why even draw them then?)

Edit: I watched it again and it's not absolutely clear. Very near the beginning of part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enIxM0QJpZw at the 0:24 mark he get both objects balls inside an anchor. On the second carom (at about 0:40) I question whether the white ball is really "over the line".

Mark

This is perfect! I am so printing this once I get to college tommorow. Thanks so much, Mark!

 

[eze123]

On re-reading my other post, I see that I wasn't completely clear, so I'll try again.

At 47.2, if both object balls are within the same balk area (it's the base of the ball that determines where the ball is), only one carom is allowed which does not move one of the two balls out of that area. On the second carom one of the balls must leave that area. If the ball returns to the area, the counter is reset.

At 47.1, if both object balls are within the same balk area, no carom is allowed that leaves both object balls within that area. So 47.1 is much, much harder than 47.2. In the Gretillat video notice how often he uses his "free" carom to set up the balls in a better position to drive one of them out. At 47.1 that option is not available since there is no "free" carom.

When the two object balls are in different balk areas there is no limitaion as to how many caroms can be made in a row. Notice how often he tries to straddle a balk line and gently nudge both balls while keeping them on opposite sides of the line. This technique can be used in both 47.2 and 47.1.

One final note: notice that, where one of the balk lines parallel to a cushion meets a cushion, there is another small box drawn. These are sometimes called anchors, but they are just additional balk areas. Again, at 47.2, only one carom is allowed that leaves both object balls within the anchor. This is to prevent the player from straddling a balk line close to a cushion and making very long series' using the cushion to help keep the balls close to each other. (In the video I thought I saw him make two free caroms within an anchor -- I'll watch again to make sure. It's possible that for the sake of the exhibition he wasn't applying the anchor rule, but why even draw them then?)

Edit: I watched it again and it's not absolutely clear. Very near the beginning of part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enIxM0QJpZw at the 0:24 mark he get both objects balls inside an anchor. On the second carom (at about 0:40) I question whether the white ball is really "over the line".

Mark

It's a rule question. I believe it's where the ball touches the table that determines over the line or not. From the top view you have half a ball in the way. At :44 the ball looks to be exactly over the balkline. I'm not sure how that's called - if the ball is exactly in the middle, is that legal or not? Not sure how a ref calls things in that situation - can the ball not touch the line at all? I've never read any rules that call it exactly. Definitely the kind of game where you need a third party that makes decisions.

 

[mbvl]

It's a rule question. I believe it's where the ball touches the table that determines over the line or not. From the top view you have half a ball in the way. At :44 the ball looks to be exactly over the balkline. I'm not sure how that's called - if the ball is exactly in the middle, is that legal or not? Not sure how a ref calls things in that situation - can the ball not touch the line at all? I've never read any rules that call it exactly. Definitely the kind of game where you need a third party that makes decisions.

Here's the actual rule from the UMB website:

"4. The object-ball exactly placed on the line of the zone is considered to be disadvantageous for the player."

Mark

 

[eze123]

"disadvantageous" - I liked how that sounds.

I figured I'd ask the man himself. Here's his reply:
***************************************
Hello,
I undestand your question. The ball is over the anchor block. It's difficult to see it on the camera. With this fixed camera system on the table, I saw that the vision is not always the true... Sometime, I see on the computer in 47/1 or 71/2 that the ball is inside staying... also I saw during the play that the ball was is the good side. It's difficult to see if the point was right or not in one cushion play, too. It's strange like the vision is deformed on with this fixed camera system.
Bye.
Xavier Gretillat

 

[mbvl]

"disadvantageous" - I liked how that sounds.

I figured I'd ask the man himself. Here's his reply:
***************************************
Hello,
I undestand your question. The ball is over the anchor block. It's difficult to see it on the camera. With this fixed camera system on the table, I saw that the vision is not always the true... Sometime, I see on the computer in 47/1 or 71/2 that the ball is inside staying... also I saw during the play that the ball was is the good side. It's difficult to see if the point was right or not in one cushion play, too. It's strange like the vision is deformed on with this fixed camera system.
Bye.
Xavier Gretillat

I like the word "disadvantageous", too.

That's neat for Xavier to respond. You should also look at his one-cushion demonstration. I really like his play. Good stuff.

Mark