Congrats to the APA finalists...

[Endymion]

I stick with my numbers. It's a total joke that someone can win a handicappped tournament more than once with at least 10,000 initial entries for one bracket. I stand by this assessment.

Unfortunately, your assessment is flawed. Those raw numbers do not reflect the 'reality on the ground', which is that there are players who are not just going to qualify every year, but are the given favorites to be in the finals. Jeff Sergent and Kenny Brisbon are the class of the field anytime they are playing. Henry Brodt has won multiple 9 ball singles championships because he was the best player in the bracket, period. That's not just some wierd statistically improbable event, that's the best player playing well. I believe there have been other people who have won multiple events. Hard to do? Yes, but light years away from impossible, and hardly indicative of a system that is a total joke.

I frankly find it harder to believe the way that Illinois tends to dominate the upper tier. I think in 2006 Illinois broke dry, but in 2005 and 2007 we had 3 of the top 4 (and no Jeff Sergent).

 

[APA LO]

...... but I think a lot of people have her point of view so that's why I made the point of how much the participants have contributed to the tournament.

Yes, the participants did contribute to the tournament. Without their support, there wouldn't be a tournament. There isn't a single's tournament anywhere in the world that I'm aware of (besides the APA National Single's Championships) that someone can invest $15.00 into a tournament and get some or most of their travel expense paid, their hotel stay paid and have a chance at winning a portion of $200,000.00 in cash and prizes.

It really isn't fair to sit there and say that APA collected all those fees (and I question how accurate your accounting skills are with the amount collected), and then only point out the prize money paid out.

First off, the APA paid out $300,000 in cash and prizes between the 8 Ball and 9 Ball Single's Nationals event. They paid for the rooms of not just the National qualifiers, but the APA staff that ran this event morning, noon and night, and all of the referees as well. APA also paid towards travel expense for each qualifier as well as APA staff and referees.

Now, the tables you played on weren't delivered and set up for free. Not only did APA supply tables for the event, but they supplied many more for the Jack n Jill and mini tournaments next door. The list of expenses for putting on a huge event like this goes on and on. I doubt the Riviera gave APA that huge room for free. The electricians who hung the lights and signage probably didn't work for free. Mailings to the qualifiers, tremendous hours of advance set up, Dr. Cue and Alison Fisher promotions, Pool Party, semi trailors from St. Louis to Las Vegas and back again (have you seen the price of gasoline?) to deliver tournament supplies, etc....

I haven't even touched on the Regional events that took place all over North America not just once, but twice over the last year to qualify all of these players for Nationals. There had to be plenty of expense to organize and put those on.

Those beautiful trophies that they gave out to the top finishers probably didn't factor into the payout, and even if they did, I have still listed plenty of ways that this large event cost more than the $200K your misinformed post conveyed to everyone here, and I'm certain I could list a whole bunch more that I didn't think of right away. And I won't even mention Uncle Sam, since I know you weren't born yesterday.

If APA made a few bucks running this event, I think they deserve to. However, I doubt they really made all that much, if any.

And while I can't argue that you may have lost income to miss work to attend the Regional and National events, the only thing you gave APA to compete in this event was $15.00. I don't know about you, but I think that's awesome. I'd skip work for that any day of the week.

I'm sorry you didn't really enjoy the event. I hope someday you have a change of heart about competing in the event again, but I did feel compelled to share that your accounting of APA's expenditures for this event was WAY off base.

For $15.00, you:

1. Competed on a local qualifier board
2. Received a mailed invite to compete in a Regional event.
3. Received $200 in travel money (based on a previous post you made)
4. Received hotel stay at the Riviera for each night of the event.
5. Received last place cash and prizes totaling $200.00.
6. Had a chance to win as much as $15,000 in cash and prizes based on finish.

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, they had every opportunity to beat Jeff Sergeant in this event. To repeat as champion in this event, it takes more than just skill. You need a little luck and you need the rolls to break your way. I can't take anything away from Jeff, as he is a very skilled pool player. But, there were many players competing in this event that can beat Jeff in a race to 5 on a given day, they just didn't get it done. For that, you have to tip your cap to Jeff. But, the beauty of the APA National Single's Championships is that EVERY player wins money in this event, and the money increases the farther you make it through the tournament. Jeff just happened to win the most money in that skill level tier.

 

[frankncali]

Unfortunately, your assessment is flawed. Those raw numbers do not reflect the 'reality on the ground', which is that there are players who are not just going to qualify every year, but are the given favorites to be in the finals. Jeff Sergent and Kenny Brisbon are the class of the field anytime they are playing. Henry Brodt has won multiple 9 ball singles championships because he was the best player in the bracket, period. That's not just some wierd statistically improbable event, that's the best player playing well. I believe there have been other people who have won multiple events. Hard to do? Yes, but light years away from impossible, and hardly indicative of a system that is a total joke.

I frankly find it harder to believe the way that Illinois tends to dominate the upper tier. I think in 2006 Illinois broke dry, but in 2005 and 2007 we had 3 of the top 4 (and no Jeff Sergent).

Im just curious as to why you think that Illinois does so well. Or why some of the better players are more inclined to play APA there rather than other areas.
How often do they play? Are they on regular teams or just enough to become qualified? Either way they are doing nothing wrong.

I know here there are many of the better non-pros that dont play. Not sure why they dont because there really isnt much in pool that happens in
SoCal.
I refrain some listing any of the good APA players here just because I dont want to miss anyone but there are still some very good ones but many just
ddont play league. If they do they dont play very much and its usaully just enough to become eligible. There are exceptions that play often and are what I would consider regular APAers

 

[instroke75]

same here

Im just curious as to why you think that Illinois does so well. Or why some of the better players are more inclined to play APA there rather than other areas.
How often do they play? Are they on regular teams or just enough to become qualified? Either way they are doing nothing wrong.

I know here there are many of the better non-pros that dont play. Not sure why they dont because there really isnt much in pool that happens in
SoCal.
I refrain some listing any of the good APA players here just because I dont want to miss anyone but there are still some very good ones but many just
ddont play league. If they do they dont play very much and its usaully just enough to become eligible. There are exceptions that play often and are what I would consider regular APAers

my area is the same way, there are at least 10 to 15 guys in my poolhall who don't play apa that would smoke anyone of our apa players myself included, we don't like or choose not to play league play for different reasons! this weakens the talent pool of APAers coming from my area!

 

[a_susie_cue]

Illinois is so well represented because there are probably over 1000 teams in that state alone. Wisconsin only has one area which is Kenosha/ Racine. Florida, Oklahoma, and Texas seem to do well year after year too. It would be an interesting tidbit to find out how many teams each state actually has as well as Canada and now Japan. Your state could have some of the best players living there, but they may not play APA or even have the opportunity to play APA.

By the way, Jeff Sergent almost lost in the finals. He was playing Kevin Adams who was on the hill first in a 5-4 race. Kevin had played a great safe with the hopes of getting ball in hand on his next shot. Jeff came back with an amazing 3 rail kick shot on the 8. Not only did Jeff get a good hit, he kicked safe. The match went hill-hill with Jeff breaking and running the last rack for the victory.

In 2005, Kenny Brisbon (from Michigan) played Zane (from the Illinois/Wisconsin areas) in the purple tier. That too was a 5-4 race. Kenny's skills are better than Zane's, but he lost 4-2. The only 2 mistakes (if you can even call them mistakes) that Kenny made were scratching on the break and making a ball on a break but not being able to see one of his object balls. Zane was the underdog, but he managed to get by a "monster" player. It can happen.

The APA has been seeding their regionals and national tournaments for a while now. Their system keeps growing and growing. Don't they have over 1/4 of a million players now? As much as we may not like the seeding system, why would they change it when it works for them?

 

[Da Poet]

Unfortunately, your assessment is flawed. Those raw numbers do not reflect the 'reality on the ground', which is that there are players who are not just going to qualify every year, but are the given favorites to be in the finals. Jeff Sergent and Kenny Brisbon are the class of the field anytime they are playing. Henry Brodt has won multiple 9 ball singles championships because he was the best player in the bracket, period. That's not just some wierd statistically improbable event, that's the best player playing well. I believe there have been other people who have won multiple events. Hard to do? Yes, but light years away from impossible, and hardly indicative of a system that is a total joke.

I frankly find it harder to believe the way that Illinois tends to dominate the upper tier. I think in 2006 Illinois broke dry, but in 2005 and 2007 we had 3 of the top 4 (and no Jeff Sergent).

Actually with the numbers I was using, I was trying to demonstrate how much better a player has to be than the rest of the field to win multiple times. I want to stress the point also that these guys are great players and as such are a credit to the game.

Repeat winners is something that is only going on in the 6-7 bracket and I think we can safely assume that it is virtually impossible for this to happen in any of the other brackets. Why should the 6-7 bracket be any different from the others?

I think you point as far as certain regions dominating is a good one. Perhaps certain regions are turning players away while others aren't.

 

[Endymion]

Why should the 6-7 bracket be any different from the others?

It's fundamentally different than the other tiers because the 8's and 9's (in 8 ball mind you) are all still 7's and don't go on to the next tier since there isn't one. That's why you get repeat winners out of the upper tier. Lower tiers are generally won by players who a) get moved out of that tier and can't then repeat, or b) stay in the same tier but are generally the same speed as many other players in that same tier and have a much tougher time repeating.

 

[Da Poet]

It really isn't fair to sit there and say that APA collected all those fees (and I question how accurate your accounting skills are with the amount collected), and then only point out the prize money paid out.

How did you know I was sitting?


I agree. I didn't present that very well and I certainly don't have a problem with the overall entry fee vs payout especially when you consider all the additional expenses beyond the payout.

However, there are handicapped tournaments everywhere that pay back all of the entry fees and often more, granted they aren't as fancy as the APA Singles Nationals.

As far as the amount collected, I simply added up the amount of players in the Nationals from their website which was 361 for the Eight Ball Classic, multiplied by 16 which is how many players were in each bracket at the regional that I attended, (maybe others had different amounts?) and then multiplied by 8 which is how many players competed in the local, and then multiplied that number by $15. Total $693,120.

 

[DoomCue]

How did you know I was sitting?


I agree. I didn't present that very well and I certainly don't have a problem with the overall entry fee vs payout especially when you consider all the additional expenses beyond the payout.

However, there are handicapped tournaments everywhere that pay back all of the entry fees and often more, granted they aren't as fancy as the APA Singles Nationals.

As far as the amount collected, I simply added up the amount of players in the Nationals from their website which was 361 for the Eight Ball Classic, multiplied by 16 which is how many players were in each bracket at the regional that I attended, (maybe others had different amounts?) and then multiplied by 8 which is how many players competed in the local, and then multiplied that number by $15. Total $693,120.

I hate arguments like this. WHO CARES HOW MUCH MONEY THEY MAKE?!? If you don't like it, don't play. Even better, would you rather they don't make a dime? If so, enjoy playing in house leagues, because there wouldn't be an APA. As APA LO pointed out, there are lots of expenses you don't bother to take into account in your figures. How much do you think your $15 got you? Multiply that amount by 361 and see if your $693,120 makes any sense - do you still expect them to pay anywhere near that amount?

We live in a capitalistic society. Why are you concerned with how much money is made or is paid out? It's still a hell of a lot more than your measly $15. Is a shot at 1000 times your money not enough?

-djb

 

[Da Poet]

I hate arguments like this. WHO CARES HOW MUCH MONEY THEY MAKE?!? If you don't like it, don't play. Even better, would you rather they don't make a dime? If so, enjoy playing in house leagues, because there wouldn't be an APA. As APA LO pointed out, there are lots of expenses you don't bother to take into account in your figures. How much do you think your $15 got you? Multiply that amount by 361 and see if your $693,120 makes any sense - do you still expect them to pay anywhere near that amount?

We live in a capitalistic society. Why are you concerned with how much money is made or is paid out? It's still a hell of a lot more than your measly $15. Is a shot at 1000 times your money not enough?

-djb

Did you read the first sentence in my last post?

 

[RobertR]

Actually with the numbers I was using, I was trying to demonstrate how much better a player has to be than the rest of the field to win multiple times. I want to stress the point also that these guys are great players and as such are a credit to the game.

Repeat winners is something that is only going on in the 6-7 bracket and I think we can safely assume that it is virtually impossible for this to happen in any of the other brackets. Why should the 6-7 bracket be any different from the others?

I think you point as far as certain regions dominating is a good one. Perhaps certain regions are turning players away while others aren't.

It was certainly unfortunate they bumped you right before nationals. I can identify with alot of your feelings as I go to the BCA and VNEA every year on my own dime. Las Vegas this time of year is tough action for amateur pool.

I think once your game reaches the next level (SL7?) you might re-think your position about the national tournaments. Playing true SL7's (like Jeff) is very tough, but not impossible. The APA plays very short races (5) and once you realize that you can run out against anyone, you'll find the true beauty of the game lies in playing within yourself and not making any mistakes. I know you like numbers, so here's one. I'll bet there were at least 10-20 players that had an honest shot to win the 6-7 tier had they not gotten a bad roll, or made a crucial mistake. The fact that Mr. Sergent has won it 3 times only proves one thing, he has learned how not to make mistakes in crunch time.

I'd also like to apologize for my initial reply to your post. It was a bit on the harsh side, as I re-read it now. It's just that from my perspective, myself and many other players have been victim to the APA's handicapping system. The APA doesn't need anymore legislation or loopholes to keep out the good players, they have plenty already.

 

[Da Poet]

It was certainly unfortunate they bumped you right before nationals. I can identify with alot of your feelings as I go to the BCA and VNEA every year on my own dime. Las Vegas this time of year is tough action for amateur pool.

I think once your game reaches the next level (SL7?) you might re-think your position about the national tournaments. Playing true SL7's (like Jeff) is very tough, but not impossible. The APA plays very short races (5) and once you realize that you can run out against anyone, you'll find the true beauty of the game lies in playing within yourself and not making any mistakes. I know you like numbers, so here's one. I'll bet there were at least 10-20 players that had an honest shot to win the 6-7 tier had they not gotten a bad roll, or made a crucial mistake. The fact that Mr. Sergent has won it 3 times only proves one thing, he has learned how not to make mistakes in crunch time.

I'd also like to apologize for my initial reply to your post. It was a bit on the harsh side, as I re-read it now. It's just that from my perspective, myself and many other players have been victim to the APA's handicapping system. The APA doesn't need anymore legislation or loopholes to keep out the good players, they have plenty already.

First, there is absolutely no reason to apologize. You were speaking the truth and I threw my opinion out there knowing it would be unpopular and actually I am surprised I didn't get bashed worse than I did.

There was some great analysis posted by Frankincali and yourself on my handicap change and there is something that I didn't add that I want to mention. First, in the local, I was a four which was due to a really bad losing streak bringing me down from a five, but after the local on a super easy table with big pockets, I was bumped back up to a five. When my league operator showed up at our league match two weeks after the regionals, he told me personally that he had bad news and that the regional had barely bumped me up to a six and that within a week or two, he had to send the main office some letter declaring what my handicap was. It took me a few minutes to realize what he was indirectly implying, but I couldn't do it. I won my first match as a six, and practiced like crazy and beat a weaker seven the following week creaming him and kept on practicing like crazy winning a third time in a row. This pretty much sealed my fate as far as being a six in the 6-7 bracket. Even if I knew then what I know now about the type of competition there is in the Nationals, even though our team is six points in the lead with two weeks now to go, I wouldn't have tried any less to win my league matches. It wouldn't even be a close decision.

Thanks for the input and congratulations to all who travelled out there. Sorry for my whining!

 

[dogginda9]

i


As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, they had every opportunity to beat Jeff Sergeant in this event. To repeat as champion in this event, it takes more than just skill. You need a little luck and you need the rolls to break your way. I can't take anything away from Jeff, as he is a very skilled pool player. But, there were many players competing in this event that can beat Jeff in a race to 5 on a given day, they just didn't get it done. For that, you have to tip your cap to Jeff. But, the beauty of the APA National Single's Championships is that EVERY player wins money in this event, and the money increases the farther you make it through the tournament. Jeff just happened to win the most money in that skill level tier.

Truer words have never been spoken. He got plenty of good rolls and dodged a few land mines. As a matter of fact, he did lose a match in this years event. Just so happened to be in the last possible round to get a loss and still be alive. As a side note. He was also beat 75-12 and then 75-8 the first 2 rounds in this years 9-ball event. That's 150 balls to 20 for those statistical geeks like myself. I would have to call that a pretty sound a$$ beating.

 

[RobertR]

Truer words have never been spoken. He got plenty of good rolls and dodged a few land mines. As a matter of fact, he did lose a match in this years event. Just so happened to be in the last possible round to get a loss and still be alive. As a side note. He was also beat 75-12 and then 75-8 the first 2 rounds in this years 9-ball event. That's 150 balls to 20 for those statistical geeks like myself. I would have to call that a pretty sound a$$ beating.

You know, come to think of it, he doesn't play 9ball all that well. I think I'll woof at him a little at the BCA and try to get a little slice of that APA pie.

 

[Scott Lee]

Yes, the participants did contribute to the tournament. Without their support, there wouldn't be a tournament. There isn't a single's tournament anywhere in the world that I'm aware of (besides the APA National Single's Championships) that someone can invest $15.00 into a tournament and get some or most of their travel expense paid, their hotel stay paid and have a chance at winning a portion of $200,000.00 in cash and prizes.

It really isn't fair to sit there and say that APA collected all those fees (and I question how accurate your accounting skills are with the amount collected), and then only point out the prize money paid out.

First off, the APA paid out $300,000 in cash and prizes between the 8 Ball and 9 Ball Single's Nationals event. They paid for the rooms of not just the National qualifiers, but the APA staff that ran this event morning, noon and night, and all of the referees as well. APA also paid towards travel expense for each qualifier as well as APA staff and referees.

Now, the tables you played on weren't delivered and set up for free. Not only did APA supply tables for the event, but they supplied many more for the Jack n Jill and mini tournaments next door. The list of expenses for putting on a huge event like this goes on and on. I doubt the Riviera gave APA that huge room for free. The electricians who hung the lights and signage probably didn't work for free. Mailings to the qualifiers, tremendous hours of advance set up, Dr. Cue and Alison Fisher promotions, Pool Party, semi trailors from St. Louis to Las Vegas and back again (have you seen the price of gasoline?) to deliver tournament supplies, etc....

I haven't even touched on the Regional events that took place all over North America not just once, but twice over the last year to qualify all of these players for Nationals. There had to be plenty of expense to organize and put those on.

Those beautiful trophies that they gave out to the top finishers probably didn't factor into the payout, and even if they did, I have still listed plenty of ways that this large event cost more than the $200K your misinformed post conveyed to everyone here, and I'm certain I could list a whole bunch more that I didn't think of right away. And I won't even mention Uncle Sam, since I know you weren't born yesterday.

If APA made a few bucks running this event, I think they deserve to. However, I doubt they really made all that much, if any.

And while I can't argue that you may have lost income to miss work to attend the Regional and National events, the only thing you gave APA to compete in this event was $15.00. I don't know about you, but I think that's awesome. I'd skip work for that any day of the week.

I'm sorry you didn't really enjoy the event. I hope someday you have a change of heart about competing in the event again, but I did feel compelled to share that your accounting of APA's expenditures for this event was WAY off base.

For $15.00, you:

1. Competed on a local qualifier board
2. Received a mailed invite to compete in a Regional event.
3. Received $200 in travel money (based on a previous post you made)
4. Received hotel stay at the Riviera for each night of the event.
5. Received last place cash and prizes totaling $200.00.
6. Had a chance to win as much as $15,000 in cash and prizes based on finish.

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, they had every opportunity to beat Jeff Sergeant in this event. To repeat as champion in this event, it takes more than just skill. You need a little luck and you need the rolls to break your way. I can't take anything away from Jeff, as he is a very skilled pool player. But, there were many players competing in this event that can beat Jeff in a race to 5 on a given day, they just didn't get it done. For that, you have to tip your cap to Jeff. But, the beauty of the APA National Single's Championships is that EVERY player wins money in this event, and the money increases the farther you make it through the tournament. Jeff just happened to win the most money in that skill level tier.

APA LO...Thanks for your comments. As a former APA LO myself, I have to agree with most everything you mentioned. Two questions, about points made by Da Poet and frankincali. Da Poet said that some APA players can "buy their way past locals", into the regional singles competitions. I do not believe this to be true. Can you confirm or deny this? It was not possible when I was an LO in the early 90's. Second...Frank mentioned that you go into Regional tournaments with a "clean" match score. I also don't believe this is true. Again, it wasn't when I was an LO. From my recollection, all match scores were recorded and counted, in the database, as contributing to S/L numbers. This included singles matches, both at local, regional, and (if you made it) national levels.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[frankncali]

APA LO...Thanks for your comments. As a former APA LO myself, I have to agree with most everything you mentioned. Two questions, about points made by Da Poet and frankincali. Da Poet said that some APA players can "buy their way past locals", into the regional singles competitions. I do not believe this to be true. Can you confirm or deny this? It was not possible when I was an LO in the early 90's. Second...Frank mentioned that you go into Regional tournaments with a "clean" match score. I also don't believe this is true. Again, it wasn't when I was an LO. From my recollection, all match scores were recorded and counted, in the database, as contributing to S/L numbers. This included singles matches, both at local, regional, and (if you made it) national levels.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott I have known a couple people to "buy" pst the locals. Some just fake a board and turn in the money. I have heard that some LOs will let a player do this and some will not. I have seen a few fake qualifying boards. Sometimes it usually because the area does not have enough people trying to qualify so they dont have many events.

I am not 100% about the information that I listed. It was just told to me that way and honestly it made alot of sense. Its not that the person
starts with a totally clean slate but rather they would start with a slate of scores all equal to their average. So if the person was 5.6 after taking his top matches out of his last (x amount) then instead of having the highs and lows in the regional computer it would just be (x amount) of the players average. Not sure if thats right or not but it would make it a little easier for players to move SLs more quickly and keep sandbagging down.

BTW--- When is your next time coming around SoCal?? Is Jack W is out
near Banning/Beaumont and if so how is he doing?

 

[Scott Lee]

Frank...If people are "buying" their way into the Regionals, it is most certainly without the knowledge of St. Louis. There are poor league operators, who try to cheat the system, just as there are players who try to do the same.
The match score system may or may not be the same as when I was an LO. That's why I wanted a response from a current LO.

Jack White still lives in Banning, CA. His wife, Mollie, past away a year and a half ago. Jack is still out touring some, although I took over most of his tour long ago. I make to CA a couple of times each year. I was just out there in late Feb.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[APA LO]

APA LO...Thanks for your comments. As a former APA LO myself, I have to agree with most everything you mentioned. Two questions, about points made by Da Poet and frankincali. Da Poet said that some APA players can "buy their way past locals", into the regional singles competitions. I do not believe this to be true. Can you confirm or deny this? It was not possible when I was an LO in the early 90's. Second...Frank mentioned that you go into Regional tournaments with a "clean" match score. I also don't believe this is true. Again, it wasn't when I was an LO. From my recollection, all match scores were recorded and counted, in the database, as contributing to S/L numbers. This included singles matches, both at local, regional, and (if you made it) national levels.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Players are not allowed to buy a board and bypass local qualifiers. Players caught manipulating scores or any fraudulent behavior will be facing more than just disqualification, and APA will investigage I can't speak for other League Operators, but I would hope there aren't any that would resort to cheating. If someone is aware that this may be happening, I would urge them to contact the APA National Office.

To your second question, all scores are figured into skill levels, including local qualifiers, Regionals, local league matches, higher level tournament scores, etc..

 

[a_susie_cue]

Hey Scott,

How come you don't have your pool lesson stuff in the APA packets?

 

[Da Poet]

APA LO...Thanks for your comments. As a former APA LO myself, I have to agree with most everything you mentioned. Two questions, about points made by Da Poet and frankincali. Da Poet said that some APA players can "buy their way past locals", into the regional singles competitions. I do not believe this to be true. Can you confirm or deny this? It was not possible when I was an LO in the early 90's. Second...Frank mentioned that you go into Regional tournaments with a "clean" match score. I also don't believe this is true. Again, it wasn't when I was an LO. From my recollection, all match scores were recorded and counted, in the database, as contributing to S/L numbers. This included singles matches, both at local, regional, and (if you made it) national levels.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Sorry Scott, you're right. I included the possibility that this might be occuring to make a different point about the amount of players that could have possibly entered the APA Singles Qualifiers, and have possibly qualifed to play in the 6-7 bracket. It was based on previous posts here on AZ that I recall from memory and I didn't want to exclude this possibility as I was anticipating a challenge that never occured. I didn't mean to mislead anyone about the process.

I suppose I could search the posts, but I was trying to be conservative in my estimates and if buying boards is a rare illegal occurance, then my earlier points are only further supported.