Consistency of APA Ratings

[trob]

??? Our APA team Captain would NEVER allow any sandbagging. Like the rule book says, dont worry about the handicap, go shoot your best. Or something like that. Everyone on our team shoots their very best every single stroke and night. Sandbagging would be a waste of our time and talents and goes against our ethics in pool and beyond. We also are ridiculously accurate with our score keeping. Evidently not all think like this.

Some people don't take it as seriously as others so theyre more lax in their score keeping. I haven't been to vegas but I was told as a 9 I would have a tough time. You play 6's that will string racks on you. Some people are about winning at any cost. Thats not me. Since I started in apa I've tried to play my best every match whether my captain was telling me to be careful or I'm going to move up or not lol It's just not in my nature to intentionally miss or dog a game.

 

[AceAngeles]

Most LO's? I understand there are more then 300 LO's in The APA, how many have you talked to? And what might happen to be in your leagues local rules, like "No male S/L 2's" isn't necessarily applicable to the rules on the national level. While it may be in the HLT rules, it isn't in the rules for regular weekly play up through local team championship play.
The APA does allow male S/L 2's (and 1's) on the local level.

Honestly I'm just quoting what it says in our league bylaws which is put out by our league operator. I don't think it's possible to be a SL 1 in 8 ball anywhere though. I wish we had skill level 2 in our area. We have a nice guy on our team who has been in the league over 10 years, friends with everyone but is a lifetime 32% "3". I play him 6-8 times each session but it hurts the team.

 

[one stroke]

I think it would be great if the APA won/loss records were dumped into Fargo rate somehow. I strongly doubt that would ever happen as the APA would lose what separates them from their competitors. And since they are the big dog in amateur pool why would they do that?

I wish the BCA had a presence in my area. I would join in a heartbeat.

I highly doubt Fargo ratings would change much if used in APA , they would find the cut off point in numbers and give it a ranking 2-7 you would still have matches where a high 7 meets a low 7 and gets no handicap , or a hi 4 meets a low 5 and gets a game


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[Corwyn_8]

I'm sure you're right. Why would people care what system the APA uses.

But I will bet that the APA and their franchise owners do. Why would they give up a system that differentiates them from the competition?

Why? You just said that no one cares. How are they differentiated by a factor that no one cares about?

There is no BCA league near you, is one going to pop up out of nowhere the second APA sends their game records to FargoRate? That makes no sense to me.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Corwyn_8]

I highly doubt Fargo ratings would change much if used in APA , they would find the cut off point in numbers and give it a ranking 2-7 you would still have matches where a high 7 meets a low 7 and gets no handicap , or a hi 4 meets a low 5 and gets a game

That doesn't sound much like 'using FargoRates'. Using FargoRates would be setting the handicaps by the three digit fargo rating. None of that will EVER get rid of the fact that handicapping is being done on a per game basis. There will always be a cutoff between a zero game handicap and a one game handicap. Unless you want to introduce a finer granularity of handicapping. What fargo rates will do is compare actually ratings rather than an abstraction of that rating into levels. So a high 4 might play even with a low 5, while a high 5 might give a game to a low 5.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Celophanewrap]

Honestly I'm just quoting what it says in our league bylaws which is put out by our league operator. I don't think it's possible to be a SL 1 in 8 ball anywhere though. I wish we had skill level 2 in our area. We have a nice guy on our team who has been in the league over 10 years, friends with everyone but is a lifetime 32% "3". I play him 6-8 times each session but it hurts the team.

In APA 8 Ball Skill Levels go from 2 - 7, in 9 Ball Skill Levels go from 1- 9. HLT rules don't allow male 2's in 8 ball or male 1's in 9 ball. If your guy has been playing for 10 years and is still a 3 there then it sounds like there are other issues. But seriously, most teams would kill to have a 3 that never had any movement, so if you feel like he's hurting your team it's more the management than his play that's hurting the team. Sure, you'd like to be able to win once in a while but you have to know when to play him and he has to understand and be comfortable with his role.

 

[lorider]

In APA 8 Ball Skill Levels go from 2 - 7, in 9 Ball Skill Levels go from 1- 9. HLT rules don't allow male 2's in 8 ball or male 1's in 9 ball. If your guy has been playing for 10 years and is still a 3 there then it sounds like there are other issues. But seriously, most teams would kill to have a 3 that never had any movement, so if you feel like he's hurting your team it's more the management than his play that's hurting the team. Sure, you'd like to be able to win once in a while but you have to know when to play him and he has to understand and be comfortable with his role.

Exactly.....i had a 2 that had the game of her life in a board qualifier and was raised fo a 3 and locked at that level since she won the qualifier.

She hardly ever beats another 3 and can't beat most 2's but will never go down and has not improved any in the 6 years she has been playing.

I vive up trying to teach her cause she takes every thing you say as criticism and thus she will never improve tk even a decent 3

 

[pogmothoin]

Why? You just said that no one cares. How are they differentiated by a factor that no one cares about?

There is no BCA league near you, is one going to pop up out of nowhere the second APA sends their game records to FargoRate? That makes no sense to me.

Thank you kindly.

I think you missed my point. Most APA players don't care what system is used. They, we, are playing for fun. Some do care about the results of the system though, hence the concern about sandbaggers. Heck, the league even uses spotters at tournaments to find violators.

The point of this thread was to discuss possible inconsistent ratings in the APA from area to area. Scorekeeping was discussed. So whether it's dishonesty or just lack of knowledge, failing to keep score properly degrades the validity of the "equalizer" handicapping system. The whole rating system is based on it. So if some LO's are more diligent than others it may validate those concerns.

My thought is that Fargo may turn out to be a more reliable system without the inherent flaw of requiring defensive shots be marked.

But again, even if that were so, there is no incentive for the APA and it franchisees to give up their closed and secret system. They invested their money, are profitable, and that is their bottom line and their right too. And a lot of people, including myself, have fun with it. But that doesn't mean there might not be a better or more efficient system.

And I like the concept of the Fargo system so yes I would play in a BCA league if one were close. What you or anyone else does is out of my control.

So thank you.

 

[Corwyn_8]

...hence the concern about sandbaggers. Heck, the league even uses spotters at tournaments to find violators.

The point of this thread was to discuss possible inconsistent ratings in the APA from area to area. Scorekeeping was discussed. So whether it's dishonesty or just lack of knowledge, failing to keep score properly degrades the validity of the "equalizer" handicapping system. The whole rating system is based on it. So if some LO's are more diligent than others it may validate those concerns.

My thought is that Fargo may turn out to be a more reliable system without the inherent flaw of requiring defensive shots be marked.

But again, even if that were so, there is no incentive for the APA and it franchisees to give up their closed and secret system.

Funny, I would have thought that happier players would be an incentive. That not having to pay 'spotters' would be an incentive.

Well at least we have gone from "it is their advantage", to "they have no incentive to change".

Thank you kindly.

 

[one stroke]

I think you missed my point. Most APA players don't care what system is used. They, we, are playing for fun. Some do care about the results of the system though, hence the concern about sandbaggers. Heck, the league even uses spotters at tournaments to find violators.

The point of this thread was to discuss possible inconsistent ratings in the APA from area to area. Scorekeeping was discussed. So whether it's dishonesty or just lack of knowledge, failing to keep score properly degrades the validity of the "equalizer" handicapping system. The whole rating system is based on it. So if some LO's are more diligent than others it may validate those concerns.

My thought is that Fargo may turn out to be a more reliable system without the inherent flaw of requiring defensive shots be marked.

But again, even if that were so, there is no incentive for the APA and it franchisees to give up their closed and secret system. They invested their money, are profitable, and that is their bottom line and their right too. And a lot of people, including myself, have fun with it. But that doesn't mean there might not be a better or more efficient system.

And I like the concept of the Fargo system so yes I would play in a BCA league if one were close. What you or anyone else does is out of my control.

So thank you.

Since Fargo only uses wins loses against opponents so there's aways going to be a players who fly under the radar in pockets all over the country ,,

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[one stroke]

Funny, I would have thought that happier players would be an incentive. That not having to pay 'spotters' would be an incentive.

Well at least we have gone from "it is their advantage", to "they have no incentive to change".

Thank you kindly.

250k players ,,can't be all that bad ! ,,


Your Welcome


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[Banks]

Funny, I would have thought that happier players would be an incentive. That not having to pay 'spotters' would be an incentive.

Well at least we have gone from "it is their advantage", to "they have no incentive to change".

Thank you kindly.

Their refs are doing the spotting as a small part of the job.

Plenty of players are happy. As long as there's a reason to be found, some people will try to game any system. Simple win/loss systems are the easiest.

 

[Corwyn_8]

250k players ,,can't be all that bad ! ,,

Not sure how your response addresses my point at all. Are you trying to give the appeal to popularity fallacy or the halo effect fallacy?


Thank you kindly.

 

[one stroke]

Not sure how your response addresses my point at all. Are you trying to give the appeal to popularity fallacy or the halo effect fallacy?


Thank you kindly.

I'm Not sure your even making a point but let's go on the assumption you are and having happy players are a incentive ,
Well I could be just grasping at straws but if you got 250k players you probaly more than handful of happy players ,,

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[pogmothoin]

This thread was not meant to be about who is happy playing in the APA. I play in the APA and enjoy myself. It was meant to be about how consistent are the APA ratings from one area to the next.

As a national organization it should be fairly consistent. Some players don't know the rules perhaps, or even intentionally circumvent them (shocking, I know). As some have said some LO's may not be as concerned with the enforcing the rules as others. Not that they aren't, but some try harder perhaps.

Not the end of the world one way or the other.

Thank you all. I think I've gotten my answer. It just depends.

 

[Celophanewrap]

This thread was not meant to be about who is happy playing in the APA. I play in the APA and enjoy myself. It was meant to be about how consistent are the APA ratings from one area to the next.

As a national organization it should be fairly consistent. Some players don't know the rules perhaps, or even intentionally circumvent them (shocking, I know). As some have said some LO's may not be as concerned with the enforcing the rules as others. Not that they aren't, but some try harder perhaps.

Not the end of the world one way or the other.

Thank you all. I think I've gotten my answer. It just depends.

It's almost like every area grades on the curve. In some of the APA areas that I've come across in my meager travels it's like the LO (or who ever...) thinks there has to be a few of everything. I doubt that's what it actually is but depending on where you might be that can be what it feels like, I watched a match one time several years ago in the North East between a couple of 7's. These two just from watching I would have guessed were 4's at best. A few days later fast forward to The Chicago area I'm watching a couple of 5's in a match, these guys were dynamite, safes, breakouts, excellent speed and position play. A double hill match, that's 9 games in about 14 innings and I doubt it would have gone that long if it weren't for a couple of defensive shot. I would guessed they were strong 7's. I realize on both occasions this was a very small sampling so I could have been watching an anomaly.
I think it there are many variables and it really depends on how dedicated your staff is and how many players are actually playing.

 

[Skippy27]

Regionals in St. Louis were last weekend and I did not see anything out of the ordinary for any of the players in my bracket or the brackets of the others I was with.

There were even a few that certified themselves higher as required if they thought they should be and shot their bracket giving a handicap. They will be moved up at nationals and shoot in the correct bracket.

All in all - it matched my experience in Vegas last year with the handicaps being pretty accurate and I am sure it will match my experience in Vegas this year.

I am sure there will be a straggler or 2 that get through to the national tournament being underrated. However, they will probably get adjusted while there as I know at least one guy did as I was shooting a mini with a guy that had a bye because of it. It may have been the same "6" that beat me in 3 innings over 5 games in the finals of another mini.

 

[one stroke]

This thread was not meant to be about who is happy playing in the APA. I play in the APA and enjoy myself. It was meant to be about how consistent are the APA ratings from one area to the next.

As a national organization it should be fairly consistent. Some players don't know the rules perhaps, or even intentionally circumvent them (shocking, I know). As some have said some LO's may not be as concerned with the enforcing the rules as others. Not that they aren't, but some try harder perhaps.

Not the end of the world one way or the other.

Thank you all. I think I've gotten my answer. It just depends.

It's is fairly consistent till you get to the Nationals ,, that's the same with every league


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[Corwyn_8]

I'm Not sure your even making a point but let's go on the assumption you are and having happy players are a incentive ,
Well I could be just grasping at straws but if you got 250k players you probaly more than handful of happy players ,,

Since Pogmothoin said:

I wish the BCA had a presence in my area. I would join in a heartbeat.

I assume he could be happier. I was exploring ways that might happen. If you are fine with your fallacies, I will leave you to them.

Thank you kindly.

 

[one stroke]

Since Pigmothin said:

I assume he could be happier. I was exploring ways that might happen. If you are fine with your fallacies, I will leave you to them.

Thank you kindly.

If your to use the op in your feeble attempt to prove a meaningless point at least spell he name right , it's pogmothoin


Your welcome