Corey soft breaking in 10 ball...

I'm obsessed with the racking issue.

JAM said:
I think a tight rack is the way it is supposed to be, at least I had thought so.

For a player to manipulate the rack with cracks in it, to help him break balls better, is no different than playing poker with a marked deck. There are players today who rack their own balls and cheat. People look the other way and say it is the opponent's duty to ask for a re-rack. Otherwise, in their view, the rigged rack is fair. I disagree.

Personally, I think neither player -- the breaker or the racker -- should rack the balls.

I believe there should be NEUTRAL rackers. Then the rack riggers wouldn't be able to cheat.

Rack rigging is quite different than breaking strategies that Corey has employed. Breaking strategies are to be commended, kind of like a good stroke in golf. Rack riggers, on the other hand, are cheaters. Yet, this seems to be pool's dirty little secret, and everybody looks the other way as if it is not happening.

The only way to cure it is to have NEUTRAL rackers.

JAM
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I agree with you in theory that a neutral racker could be the solution. However, I think they should proceed with caution as to who qualifies for this job. To actually get all the important balls tight in the rack, it's not as easy as it is often made out to be, IMO. Small gaps can be hard to see and if the table is not cooperating, it can be a back-straining effort to get all the important balls frozen.

While a 3rd-party racker is a huge improvement over rack-for-each-other, IMO, the best solution is to let the breaker make the bed that he's forced to lay in. This does raise concerns about rack rigging...

However, I don't think that rack rigging is nearly as rampant in rack-your-own as it is made out to be. The main unfair advantage that could attained in rack-your-own would be a gap behind the 9-ball (or 10-ball) to increase the chances of the money ball being made on the break. This problem could be immediately eliminated by ruling that a 9 (10) on the break is not a win.

Other than that, IMO, if there is no break box requirement, gaps do not make anything more favorable compared to a perfectly tight rack. Although you can adjust where you put the cue ball such that the gaps don't hurt you, the best thing for the breaker is to have everything frozen. To the best of my understanding, rack-rigging in rack-your-own is a misconception from the old days when it hadn't been widely discovered that a perfectly tight rack makes the wing ball almost guaranteed.

Of course I do not claim to know everything about the rack, so there could be some special gap or combination of gaps that I'm not aware of. However, until someone can and is willing to show me this gap or combination of gaps, I will continue to believe that the most fair thing to do is to let the breaker rack his/her own balls and to eliminate the rule that counts the 9/10 ball as a win on the break. JMO. :)
 
NoBull9 said:
Bud Green I know my typing skills suck!Sorry missed that class.But if you would like to slap me I'll be glad to Pm you my address.
Black Jack your diagram is nice but wrong.Corey was leaving the cue ball on the foot rail behind the stack.And was not attempting to hold the cue ball the way your diagram shows.The two ball was hanging around the corner pocket.Three up the table one by the side pocket.And he was breaking from the other side of the table foot or so off the side rail.
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Then he used the "follow break" - sort of like this diagram -

Just so you know, I made this diagram first - but from what I was hearing it sounded like he had used the other one... oh well... whatever he did, it worked for him!


Coreyssoftbreak2.jpg


(CueTable removed for JAM - here's a picture of it)
 
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One possible solution to help the problem of break spread patterns that are too boring (repetitive) could be to require a specific racking pattern for each rack.

For example, a sheet could be handed to the players before their match which lists the patterns that they will be required to use. In a race to 7, there would be a list of 7 patterns. Each player would use pattern #1 the first time that they break, pattern #2 the second time they break, etc.

The purpose would not be to eliminate the soft break but rather to reduce predictability of the layout in a manner that is fair to both players. Knowledge of how the balls leave the rack could still be used but it would increase the complexity a bit.
 
I was there, watching the Deuel/Nevel match.

Corey would rack the balls the same way, every time, and break the same way. I thought toward the end, that I should make a note of how the balls were racked, but spaced on it in the end. :/

I do recall that he was breaking from the left side, and the one-ball would scoot over into the right side pocket, pretty regularly. He broke soft enough that the 2-7 balls mostly spread out around below the head spot. The 8, 9, and 10 would always be left in a small triangle - these balls pretty much never moved, or only moved slightly, when Corey would break.

If I recall correctly, based on the 10 ball having to be in the center, the rack would be something like

1
*8
*09
3**2

The 0 indicates the 10-ball, the *s indicate the remaining balls - I fear I don't recall where they were placed, but Corey was very consistent in where these balls would end up after his soft break.

Basically his plan seemed to be to break, sink the 1 - then work through the 2-7 and get up where he had a straight-in 8/9 combo, follow up with the 8 and leave position on the 10.

In three racks in succession, I saw him B&R, nearly B&R, and hook himself on the two-ball right off the bat. But the spread (and lack thereof) of the rack was very very consistent every time.
 
I wonder if the Golf associations are thinking of changing the rules so Tiger isn't as dominate?

imo, if he's figured this out then good for him. It's not like it is some big secret, or he has uranium in his cue or something. He's doing this out in the open for everyone to see, and if desired, copy.
 
Omg

You should be able to break them as hard or soft as you want! Who cares as long as the break is legal. Constant complainers and all these new rules will ruin pool. Rules Rules Rules Rules, way too many, they are good to keep order and fairness BUT if someone has figured a way to get a edge then someone needs to figure out how to beat that edge, not change the rules.

All these rules remind me of the Govt or the Casinos whenever a guy finds a way to favor himself they change the rules, what a joke.

Just complaining about the complaining.
 
pletho said:
You should be able to break them as hard or soft as you want! Who cares as long as the break is legal. Constant complainers and all these new rules will ruin pool. Rules Rules Rules Rules, way too many, they are good to keep order and fairness BUT if someone has figured a way to get a edge then someone needs to figure out how to beat that edge, not change the rules.
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I disagree. If one's "edge" means they can B&R fairly consistently - and not just because they can get out of any old table, but because it is the SAME table every time - then there is nothing the other player can do to "beat that edge", if they don't get to the table.

Corey's rack/break combo really does come across to me as being a "loophole" method - something within the text of the rules, but likely not within the intention of the rules.

Enforcing randomness in the rack is a difficult thing to do. You can't really point at two different racks and say "that's random" and "that's not". Random has to do with patterns over time. To enforce that, there would need to be someone assigned to every table (or every two or three tables), watching the racks set up, keeping notes, ensuring no racking patterns were used.

And if you're going to have someone doing that, you may as well just have that person doing the racking for the players anyhow, as a third party.
 
Soft Break

The object of any professional player is to win! And compete within rules. Seems like Corey did both to me....... I know it might be boring to watch when he gets his soft break working and playing every ball in the same hole. (Almost seems like he is playing marbles instead of 9ball)
BUT, It takes a lot of concentration and skill to play 9 or 10 ball like this.

They will probably put some rules up against the soft break because it is boring to watch..... unless you go home and try it!! You will have a new found respect for the focus it takes to use the soft break.

I had the pleasure to be at DCC in 2001 when Johnny and Corey were trying to match up. Johnny would not let Corey soft break, So it didn't happen. However, Corey lost to Efren in one pocket then BEAT HIM playing some 9ball with his soft break. Corey at the time said he would play anybody in the world playing rack you own using his soft break. How deadly is that?


JMHO,
Drake
 
When I said slapped from above, I meant Mr Wilson giving you the "watch it" for the pink pony crack. I assumed you were hinting he's gay and would receive the usual blasting from the posters here and warnings...

After RichZuHaus's post, though, I'm not sure if thats what you where talking about or not. Pink Pony is legendary?

Personally, I really couldn't give a sh!t about Corey's personal life or anyone's typing skills so take it easy big feller :p
 
Can we prove he doesn't have uranium in his cue? I think until his cue is examined and cut wide open, Corey shouldn't be allowed to play in any future tournaments.

md5key said:
It's not like it is some big secret, or he has uranium in his cue or something.
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ScottW said:
I disagree. If one's "edge" means they can B&R fairly consistently - and not just because they can get out of any old table, but because it is the SAME table every time - then there is nothing the other player can do to "beat that edge", if they don't get to the table.

Corey's rack/break combo really does come across to me as being a "loophole" method - something within the text of the rules, but likely not within the intention of the rules.

Enforcing randomness in the rack is a difficult thing to do. You can't really point at two different racks and say "that's random" and "that's not". Random has to do with patterns over time. To enforce that, there would need to be someone assigned to every table (or every two or three tables), watching the racks set up, keeping notes, ensuring no racking patterns were used.

And if you're going to have someone doing that, you may as well just have that person doing the racking for the players anyhow, as a third party.
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I disagree completely. Corey isn't breaking any rules, he does what he thinks gives him the best chance to win. I can't fault any player for trying to win. If I could soft break like that, and it gave me the best chance to win, you better believe I'd be doing it every time.
 
frankwhite said:
In my opinion(only mine) I think this is all BS. You should be able to break how ever you wish. Both players have the opportunity to break as they wish. Someone like Corey is so great for this game, dont think many people understand the effort he takes to come up with new shot(ect.) selections which many of us learn off of. I bless him for all I learned off of him when he is around. Just my input.
Frankie....
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You are 100% correct.
 
why dont we eliminate safetys too? In my opinion they are boring. It's not fair when they play safe & you dont. WHAAAA soft break WHAAAA safety WHAAAA soft break WHAAA safety IT'S NOT FAIR, ITS BORING LETS ALL CRY TOGETHER NOTHING IS FAIR.
 
Nickname Change

Prince of Pool to Lawyer of Pool

This guy finds every loophole there could possibly be. He pushes the rules to the full extent. Want me to break and get 3balls past the side? I'll figure it out. Want to change to 10ball? I'll get that one too.

I mean on the one hand its boring. On the other its pretty cunning. (personally i think you should break hard but i have an appreciation for cleverness)

I bet corey sits back and laughs in his head when ppl complain and says his soft break sucks. He probably thinks that hard breakers are nothing more than bangers, wanting to duke it out and go offense only.

Well lets look at all the other games. Straight pool has different kinds of breaks but everyone uses the same one and the same goes for one pocket. Both of those games have only a few different types of breaks and everyone uses them.

I dont hear anyone complaining in those games? why should 10ball be any different. If the guy gets to use his defensive break then you just have to "out move" the guy. Not easy against corey but im sure can be done.

But seriously 9ball 10ball are games that ppl want to see on TV and if we cant keep it exciting then ppl will never catch on. I say everyone breaks from the SPOT and the balls be racked at random.

If corey figures this one out... THEN SO HELP ME... Im gonnaaA... ;)
 
Whats wrong with soft break as long as its in the rules.Larry don'nt mind breaking on a bar table and making 4 or 5 balls,then killing off the lambs.I think you ought to let me use a breaking machine,where we both could break at 28, then it would be fair.
 
yeah, in response to the original poster. there is a kinda big thing here in california it seems. like if you break soft and run racks you're playing some sort of cheating style pool or something. i'll be as euphemistic as possible, but people need to get a clue with this stuff. if somebody is taking advantage of the rules, the way the balls are racked (or pretty much anything for that matter) to win the more power to them. that is what sport is all about, using your brain combined with skills to win as easily a victory as possible.

i saw tiger tee off with a 2 iron a year ago bc he had a 2 stoke lead at the last hole where there was water left. he knew he only needed a bogey to win. it's really all the same, people just using their head to win. the people that can't or refuse to do this scream bloody murder and i guess that is their strategy, although that is totally pitiful if you ask me. breaking soft not only isn't pitiful, it's the highest control, best possible pool if it's working.
 
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