crooked tournaments

S

satman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I just read the thread concerning a crooked tournament. How much is the entry you were risking playing in this tournament as a 6 instead of a 5? How much is first place? Regardless of what handicap you are if you don't like it you don't have to play. Ask for your $$$ and let it go. If you have evidence the guy is splitting up the money then someone else does too. Eventually these type people get theirs. The business owner will be the big loser in the end. I don't know of anyone who owns a business that will risk their reputation over splitting up a handicap tournament. The personal attacks on this site never cease to amaze me. They should just start a complaint forum and make people post there who want to attack others, then delete them dailey. What do you think?

P.S. I think I'll side with the tournament director and owner. Sam
 
A good idea Satman about a "Gripe Board"..."Have an issue, post it here. Let the B.S. fly" should be the headline.

I haven't played in too many rated tourneys. I went to one every few months but since they didn't recognize me having played there before they made every outsider who came in play as an "A" player. 5-2 race. After they lost and established themselves somewhere their rating would go down. I stopped going to that one. That was before I got better.

After I played a few more years and got better I played in the weekly USPPA tourneys in Seattle. Rated a 70 initially but after beating up on the TD a few weeks (114) in a row I was up to whatever was needed not to have the TD spot me a game on the wire. Which was CS. Played him some friendly games this weekend and got him 10-0 before he quit. I was just tired of spending 10 hours at a tourney spotting everyone 5-2 and only making $60 for first.
 
You're right satman, there are way too many people who view forums like this as an ideal place to drag something or somebody through the mud.

Based on the initial post by tdorn, it's obvious that his intent was to trash the owner's unrelated cue website, slander his name, depict the tournament director as a crook, and to try and harm the reputation of this billiard establishment and all because the TD decided to rank a player a "6" instead of the requested "5".

As is typical with this type of behavior, his efforts have backfired and in the process he has revealved himself to be a childish, barely literate hot-head.

Joe
 
Sounds like a good workout to me. I played in a local handicap tournament as an 10 and giving up the last 2, the weakest players were rated as a 3. mostly 4 to 7 range in the field. I think this is an excellent practice session. Think about it, if you're gonna pay for table time any way, why not take a shot at getting paid for it. Our entry was only $10+2 for green fee, I didn't care if they made me a 12. More practice for my money. Sam
 
UWPoolGod1 said:
A good idea Satman about a "Gripe Board"..."Have an issue, post it here. Let the B.S. fly" should be the headline.

I haven't played in too many rated tourneys. I went to one every few months but since they didn't recognize me having played there before they made every outsider who came in play as an "A" player. 5-2 race. After they lost and established themselves somewhere their rating would go down. I stopped going to that one. That was before I got better.

After I played a few more years and got better I played in the weekly USPPA tourneys in Seattle. Rated a 70 initially but after beating up on the TD a few weeks (114) in a row I was up to whatever was needed not to have the TD spot me a game on the wire. Which was CS. Played him some friendly games this weekend and got him 10-0 before he quit. I was just tired of spending 10 hours at a tourney spotting everyone 5-2 and only making $60 for first.
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I hate to be the one to break this to you but THERE'S NO MONEY IN POOL. Our tournaments are just like the ones described above and in the other thread about "crooked tournament." These tournaments are supposed to be entertainment, pay your fee, play for a few hours, if you make any money its a bonus. You will NOT make a living playing in these events. UWPoolGod1 is "tired" of playing 10 hours for $60. He must not like pool. Most people would be happy to get $6 an hour to play this incredible game.

Many of the better players in our tournaments have similar attitudes, they hate losing to lower ranked players (even though that is the purpose of the handicap). If they win it is because they are superior, if they lose it is because of inappropriate handicapping. Here is another memo - THERE IS A LOT OF LUCK INVOLVED IN THE OUTCOME OF SHORT RACES IN 9 BALL. Players who think they are superior, and want to make money at it should skip these tournaments (they will then be much more fun for the players that actually like pool and don't just have a bad gambling habit), hit the road, and learn to live on a very small income.
 
satman said:
Sounds like a good workout to me. I played in a local handicap tournament as an 10 and giving up the last 2, the weakest players were rated as a 3. mostly 4 to 7 range in the field. I think this is an excellent practice session. Think about it, if you're gonna pay for table time any way, why not take a shot at getting paid for it. Our entry was only $10+2 for green fee, I didn't care if they made me a 12. More practice for my money. Sam
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Bravo Satman. You obviously get it. In "The Pleasure of Small Motions" Fancher divides pool players into those with a love of the aesthetics of the game, and those that play it as a gambling device. Its obvious which camp you belong to. Where and when are those tournaments in Muncie - are they open to foreigners from Indianapolis?
 
Are you familiar with Breakers in Muncie? The tournaments are on Thurs night- 7:30. They changed the handicap system just a little because it was getting too big and lasting til 3-4 in the morning. Last week I got there late, I hadn't been there for a while and forgot what time it started, but they only had about 10 players. I think they lost some of their players to the Texas holdem tournament they now run. Not sure it's worth the drive from Indy but I'm sure they'll let you play. Do you know Troy and Tammie Jones? They run it. I was just at the ABC tournament at John Waynes Saturday in Indy. Were you there? Sam
 
satman said:
Are you familiar with Breakers in Muncie? The tournaments are on Thurs night- 7:30. They changed the handicap system just a little because it was getting too big and lasting til 3-4 in the morning. Last week I got there late, I hadn't been there for a while and forgot what time it started, but they only had about 10 players. I think they lost some of their players to the Texas holdem tournament they now run. Not sure it's worth the drive from Indy but I'm sure they'll let you play. Do you know Troy and Tammie Jones? They run it. I was just at the ABC tournament at John Waynes Saturday in Indy. Were you there? Sam
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Thanks for the info. No I am not familiar with Breaker's - what size tables do they have? I usually play straight pool on 9 foot tables. I also often play in the weekly 9 ball tournament at Chalkies (east of Allisonville Rd. on 82nd St.), Sundays at 1 P.M., handicapped, usually about 20 players (most are very good, Jeanette will often play if she is in town), $10 entry fee + $4 green fee. It is a nice room, non-smoking. Has nice 9 ft. Diamond tables, but unfortunately the tournament is relegated to the 8 ft. Diamond tables (still nice, but too small for me). Only 1 poor sport so far, most players are just really serious about it, but a lot of fun. I also am not familiar with John Wayne's place (I guess I thought he died after that last movie "The Shootist"), what size tables do they play on? I might have met Tammie Jones at the WPBA Peoria tournament - does she sell T-shirts, etc.?
 
Williebetmore said:
I hate to be the one to break this to you but THERE'S NO MONEY IN POOL. Our tournaments are just like the ones described above and in the other thread about "crooked tournament." These tournaments are supposed to be entertainment, pay your fee, play for a few hours, if you make any money its a bonus. You will NOT make a living playing in these events. UWPoolGod1 is "tired" of playing 10 hours for $60. He must not like pool. Most people would be happy to get $6 an hour to play this incredible game.

Many of the better players in our tournaments have similar attitudes, they hate losing to lower ranked players (even though that is the purpose of the handicap). If they win it is because they are superior, if they lose it is because of inappropriate handicapping. Here is another memo - THERE IS A LOT OF LUCK INVOLVED IN THE OUTCOME OF SHORT RACES IN 9 BALL. Players who think they are superior, and want to make money at it should skip these tournaments (they will then be much more fun for the players that actually like pool and don't just have a bad gambling habit), hit the road, and learn to live on a very small income.
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I can only say Tap, Tap, Tap to that!!!! Well said.
 
? straight pool in Rochester

cardiac kid said:
I can only say Tap, Tap, Tap to that!!!! Well said.
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Thanks for the kudo's, I enjoy your posts. Are you by any chance tied into the straight pool scene (was not Rochester the home of my favorite Irving Crane and Mike Sigel)? Players that bemoan their fortunes at short race 9 ball should switch to straight pool. I play in a handicapped league. The best player still usually wins, but he has to play his @#$ off. The matches are very exciting - much more fun than a luck-filled 9 ball match.
 
Hi Williebetmore,

Yes, I am tied into the straight pool scene here in Rochester. After Mike and Larry Hubbard left, Pat Howey and I had some monumental matches. Ron (Julio) Casanzio decided to play 14.1 seriously. He plays very, very well, but infrequently. Pat ran several hundred balls regularly (usually against me). My high is only 156. Irving taught all of us the basics. Babe Cranfield lived in Syracuse, NY, about 80 miles east. My game is a mixture of Babe, Irv and lots of Pat Howey. I mentioned Pat on another thread. Mike Sigel once told me Pat played the best patterns of anyone he'd seen. When he moved to Florida last year, I lost my best competition, teacher and friend. Incidently, the game of 14.1 was invented here in Rochester by room owner Jerome Keogh!
 
Irving Crane was way above average

cardiac kid said:
Hi Williebetmore,

Yes, I am tied into the straight pool scene here in Rochester. After Mike and Larry Hubbard left, Pat Howey and I had some monumental matches. Ron (Julio) Casanzio decided to play 14.1 seriously. He plays very, very well, but infrequently. Pat ran several hundred balls regularly (usually against me). My high is only 156. Irving taught all of us the basics. Babe Cranfield lived in Syracuse, NY, about 80 miles east. My game is a mixture of Babe, Irv and lots of Pat Howey. I mentioned Pat on another thread. Mike Sigel once told me Pat played the best patterns of anyone he'd seen. When he moved to Florida last year, I lost my best competition, teacher and friend. Incidently, the game of 14.1 was invented here in Rochester by room owner Jerome Keogh!
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Unbelievable,
My all time hero is Irving Crane. I was fortunate to see him play once in Pittsburgh in the early 1970's. He was getting along in years, but his game was still incredibly strong (seemed better than all the younger guys playing, except for Mizerak who totally dominated the exhibition tournament - 8-ball and straight pool). Crane did speak for a short while, and if I remember correctly he did credit Jerome Keogh for teaching him the game. It must have been a thrill to be around him.

I had seen the post on Pat Howey, its a sad commentary on the state of pool when talented players leave the sport in droves due to lack of financial opportunity.

You are too modest - a run of 156 even on a table with buckets for pockets would be incredible - a thing of beauty. I am hoping that there will be more straight pool tournaments, some of us in our straight pool league have thought about travelling to New Jersey for their next straight pool state championship (just as spectators, our high runs are all in double digits).

I did see an incredible straight pool match at the DCC this year. Pagulayan vs. Schmidt, race to 300 for $4,000, started at midnight after 13 hours of tournament pool, ended at 5 A.M., final Pagulayan 300 - Schmidt 298. A total contrast in styles, but incredible shotmaking by both. High run 112 by Schmidt (taking the lead 292 to 176). He had 4 more open shots and could only make 6 more balls. Pagulayan was so nervous at the end he could hardly shoot. It had that incredible tension that is only generated in straight pool at the end of a long match, when the score is close, and every shot looks incredibly difficult.
 
Williebetmore,

I think Alex and John played while I was involved in one of the mini nine ball events. I sure would have loved to watch. Fortunately, the minis helped to pay my expences for the week (5/6 & 3/4) Lost both times to Charlie Williams on the hill (I had a lump in my throat). Anyway, thanks for your kind comments. In the company of greatness, my effort seemed miniscule.

One of the locals, Gil Finale, played Irv in the late 50's in Rochester at Irv's room. Irv broke. Left the guy a shot (very unusual). Gil ran 100 and out. Irv gathered the balls, turned and commented to him "Son, that was the worst 100 ball run I've ever seen!" To this day, Gil and I have a laugh over that.

At one of the rooms Irv played in later in life, he ran about 350. I was racking. Finally, he missed a rather easy shot. He turned to me and said "Damn shadows in the pockets" and took his cue apart. I made some comment about the 350 he ran. Wrong thing to say. He may have been the "Deacon" but he still had some choice words for me!

One of my few achievements was to win the Irving Crane Open here in Rochester several years ago. Irv was wheeled in by an old friend. Got the trophy from him. Humble in the presence of greatness! Sorry to ramble on.
 
Willie,

Last November, Classic Billiards had a 14.1 Tournament scheduled here in Rochester. It was cancelled due to lack of prepaid entries. Some friends and I are trying to get enough front money together to hold a similar event. I'll keep you informed. If you want to play in the Jersey event, contact Jack Calavito at Comet Billiards in Parsippany, NJ. The phone is 973 334 7429. I'm not sure if he was the TD, but he was very involved.
 
Cardiac, I've never been big on 14.1. I always had too much adrenaline in me. Now I'm getting a little older and starting to practice the game a little just to sharpen up a few basic skills. Congrats, what an honor to receive your trophy from one of the all time greats. Sam
 
The quality of posting between Willie and Cardiac is what has been missing from this board for quite a while. I really enjoyed the stories Cardiac and all I can say is wow. What a thrill it must have been to learn from the best. Keep the stories coming.

Thanks and regards,
Dave
 
cardiac kid said:
Williebetmore,

I think Alex and John played while I was involved in one of the mini nine ball events. I sure would have loved to watch. Fortunately, the minis helped to pay my expences for the week (5/6 & 3/4) Lost both times to Charlie Williams on the hill (I had a lump in my throat). Anyway, thanks for your kind comments. In the company of greatness, my effort seemed miniscule.

One of the locals, Gil Finale, played Irv in the late 50's in Rochester at Irv's room. Irv broke. Left the guy a shot (very unusual). Gil ran 100 and out. Irv gathered the balls, turned and commented to him "Son, that was the worst 100 ball run I've ever seen!" To this day, Gil and I have a laugh over that.

At one of the rooms Irv played in later in life, he ran about 350. I was racking. Finally, he missed a rather easy shot. He turned to me and said "Damn shadows in the pockets" and took his cue apart. I made some comment about the 350 he ran. Wrong thing to say. He may have been the "Deacon" but he still had some choice words for me!

One of my few achievements was to win the Irving Crane Open here in Rochester several years ago. Irv was wheeled in by an old friend. Got the trophy from him. Humble in the presence of greatness! Sorry to ramble on.
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Fabulous story about Crane. Its a good thing he didn't see Pagulayan play - he was unbelievably bad (shooting all his break shots first, leaving all the rail balls for last, shooting 7 or 8 really tough long shots a rack, going end to end to end to end). It would have been really funny except that he never missed (his only misses were extremely low percentage combo's, banks, etc.), and was ending up with decent break shots. Unbelievable ball pocketing skills.
 
Willie,

I watched Alex play TJ LaFlamme at Country Club USA outside Boston a couple of years ago. Every time Alex got to the table (which was very, very rare), his solution to the problem present was to make an "Oh My God" shot! No presence of mind to find a first shot entry into a basic pattern. TJ won every game by huge margins. Never saw Alex frown, no complaints, No bull. I joked with him about learning 14.1. He was just having fun! I would be honored just to play with a future legend of the game. From some of the posts about Alex playing in Hawaii, he must have decided that 14.1 is a real game. The benefits far outweigh the practice time invested. Then again, perhaps I should introduce Alex to my friend Gil Finale. They might get along famously!
 
cardiac kid said:
Willie,

I watched Alex play TJ LaFlamme at Country Club USA outside Boston a couple of years ago. Every time Alex got to the table (which was very, very rare), his solution to the problem present was to make an "Oh My God" shot! No presence of mind to find a first shot entry into a basic pattern. TJ won every game by huge margins. Never saw Alex frown, no complaints, No bull. I joked with him about learning 14.1. He was just having fun! I would be honored just to play with a future legend of the game. From some of the posts about Alex playing in Hawaii, he must have decided that 14.1 is a real game. The benefits far outweigh the practice time invested. Then again, perhaps I should introduce Alex to my friend Gil Finale. They might get along famously!
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I neglected to mention that a knowledgeable observer in the crowd at the Pagulayan/Schmidt extravaganza told me that Alex had taken down Grady Mathews in 2 high dollar matches within the last year - he may be improving (he did have 2 racks that ended stop-stop-stop). I personally would find it hard to bet against him; he was basically averaging 3 "Oh My God" shots per rack.
 
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