CSI dumps Diamond for Predator tables

Fatboy said:
I agree the old GC’s in some pool rooms are Frankenstein tables barely holding up. House of Billiards (recently closed) is a prime example. The tables are shot, wore out and no way to run a biz. They can be restored and made into amazing tables as some AZB members have done. But to keep old shit boxes sitting there renting them for $15/hour is no way to run a pool room.

I have a GC4 that was Artie Bordendorfer’s table he bought new. It’s never been in a pool room, for a little over a year it got 8-12 or more hours of use a day at my house in Vegas-everyone came to play. So it’s pretty much a new table. But that’s a exception.

Throw out the old tables, install new equipment and run a proper pool room. Which is hard to do these days.

But old trashed tables are just that

Best
Fatboy
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On unit economics alone, I can’t see the rip & replace model vs a restore project making much biz sense, even with vendor financing. Say a bulk-buy discount gets you new Diamond proAms for $8.5k per table, and a full up GC restoration costs $3k per table. At $5500 premium per table, the restore project is 65% lower cost for the room owner. Of course the old beat up GCs can be sold to recoup maybe $1000-1500 each, but thats still a huge gap and must factor in large time/effort/storage logistics overhead to manage the transition.

I think the reality is that very few modern pool rooms can support either model in US metros, which is why we see fewer & fewer nice and/or new rooms. I’m not in the biz, but surely vendor financing had to play a big part in Diamond’s growth over last 2 decades?

Don’t think it exists much in the US, but surely a room filled with new or restored GC’s would do as fine as any other, albeit it may not attract as many pro level events? The only new room that I’m aware of in NorCal opened up 2 yrs ago with a huge fleet of 25 old Gandy 9 footers. Small beer $ wine bar, limited food, strictly pool - but very nice/clean vibe. Shockingly (to me) - it appears to be doing fine, 95% of the clientelle are yuppie bangers & APA league players who are used to beater bar boxes and much lower quality places. The Gandy tables aren’t even restored, just well maintained and they look & play nice.

I’ve been told that most rooms in EU & Asia are still dominated by GCs. @Tadaimarlon just posted some gorgeous pics of such a room in Tokyo in this thread.
 
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phreaticus said:
I’ve been told that most rooms in EU & Asia are still dominated by GCs. @Tadaimarlon just posted some gorgeous pics of such a room in Tokyo in this thread.
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Japan is 99.9% gold crown. There are some diamonds, mostly old ones, but they are super rare, maybe a handful only.

Diamond is getting popular in Spain right now, some places are getting diamonds. But it's mostly gold crown or Sam billiards. There also some dynamic tables.

I've played on Sam tables for years.. because it was the only option where I lived. They are ok. But Diamond and Brunswick tables are better.
 
Just vacuuming the tables and polishing balls goes a long way to keep clientele happy. I hate it when I play on a table, and the side of my bridge hand is solid blue after one game. As long as they are maintaining the tables, I dont care if they are a little old and beat up. They just need to play well.
 
buckshotshoey said:
Just vacuuming the tables and polishing balls goes a long way to keep clientele happy. I hate it when I play on a table, and the side of my bridge hand is solid blue after one game. As long as they are maintaining the tables, I dont care if they are a little old and beat up. They just need to play well.
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Agreed!

The nice place I mentioned above near me with Gandy tables - keeps the place very well maintained & just recovered all the tables with 860 HR. Only 2 weeks after, my bridge hand is blue after 15 min. I thibk they struggle to vaccum the tables daily.

I’ve actually started to wonder if the Toam v10 chalk fan boys aren’t actually on to something that commercial room owners should pay attention to. The massive reduction in chalk residue from pricey Taom seems like it would more than pay for itself medium/long term in reduced staff labour & maintenance costs…
 
phreaticus said:
On unit economics alone, I can’t see the rip & replace model vs a restore project making much biz sense, even with vendor financing. Say a bulk-buy discount gets you new Diamond proAms for $8.5k per table, and a full up GC restoration costs $3k per table. At $5500 premium per table, the restore project is 65% lower cost for the room owner. Of course the old beat up GCs can be sold to recoup maybe $1000-1500 each, but thats still a huge gap and must factor in large time/effort/storage logistics overhead to manage the transition.

I think the reality is that very few modern pool rooms can support either model in US metros, which is why we see fewer & fewer nice and/or new rooms. I’m not in the biz, but surely vendor financing had to play a big part in Diamond’s growth over last 2 decades?

Don’t think it exists much in the US, but surely a room filled with new or restored GC’s would do as fine as any other, albeit it may not attract as many pro level events? The only new room that I’m aware of in NorCal opened up 2 yrs ago with a huge fleet of 25 old Gandy 9 footers. Small bar, limited food, strictly pool - but very nice/clean vibe. Shockingly (to me) - it appears to be doing fine, 95% of the clientelle are yuppie bangers & APA league players who are used to beater bar boxes and much lower quality places. The Gandy tables aren’t even restored, just well maintained and they look & play nice.

I’ve been told that most rooms in EU & Asia are still dominated by GCs. @Tadaimarlon just posted some gorgeous pics of such a room in Tokyo in this thread.
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All depends on who does the work.
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But to many room owners think their old tables are like new again just because they paid someone to install new cloth and cushions. And their tables are way to important to shut 1 down for 3 weeks to get it completely rebuilt.

I was actually considering taking 5 GC1's at a time, completely rebuilding and refinishing them, updating them with all of today's advances in leveling systems and frame supports. Then offering a 5 table at a time trade-in program, for $6500 a table, and give a credit of a $1,000 per GC1 trade-in. So that's $5500 per table, plus delivery and set up, and the room would have new GC1's that could compete with ANY 9fts on the market today. But after talking to several room owners, I decided to forget it because they were to cheap to buy fully restored GC1's, so, let them spend $10k for new tables, or go out of business operating the junk shit they have, don't care anymore.
 
Apparently there is a U-Tube with Greg Sullivan about 40 minutes long that explained why he started Diamond.

Apprently he wand a better Brunswick Table, Brunswick had no interest in.

So Diamond came to be.






 
realkingcobra said:
All depends on who does the work.
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Of course!

My ballpark estimate of $3k for a GC restoration cost ass-u-me-s a top notch mechanic’s time & materials for on site project (and of course excludes base cost of the older GC itself). This swag is just based off a few nice restoration projects that I’ve seen on AZB and in the real world.

Of course in the real world, also depends on what exactly the old table needs done to it. My $3k estimate assume new rails and some nice overall TLC.

If I’m way off base, feel free to suggest other numbers, as I’d genuinely like to know.

If I was personally planning a new room, I’d be looking to outfit it with a mix of nicely redone GC’s and a fleet of matching Diamond bar boxes, and perhaps 2-4 tight Diamond Pro’s. And while I’m at it, ideally a few nice snooker, carom tables and finally a 10 ft pool bigfoot pool table!

Who knows, one can dream. Now I just need Fatboy to cut me a good deal on some commercial RE and find a good place to retire near good skiing & ocean - that is NOT in California.

And now you know why my “plans” haven’t got very far along… 🤣
 
CocoboloCowboy said:
Apparently there is a U-Tube with Greg Sullivan about 40 minutes long that explained why he started Diamond.

Apprently he wand a better Brunswick Table, Brunswick had no interest in.

So Diamond came to be.






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Thanks for the share, will watch this later.

For my money, Diamond tables have been the best to play on.

And for tournament organisor's the most reliable to move around, setup with confidence.

I am very curious to see how Predator 7ft tables go in this last regard.
It needs to be the opposite of their 9ft table... the 10 Ball event was a disaster.
 
realkingcobra said:
But to many room owners think their old tables are like new again just because they paid someone to install new cloth and cushions. And their tables are way to important to shut 1 down for 3 weeks to get it completely rebuilt.

I was actually considering taking 5 GC1's at a time, completely rebuilding and refinishing them, updating them with all of today's advances in leveling systems and frame supports. Then offering a 5 table at a time trade-in program, for $6500 a table, and give a credit of a $1,000 per GC1 trade-in. So that's $5500 per table, plus delivery and set up, and the room would have new GC1's that could compete with ANY 9fts on the market today. But after talking to several room owners, I decided to forget it because they were to cheap to buy fully restored GC1's, so, let them spend $10k for new tables, or go out of business operating the junk shit they have, don't care anymore.
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Thanks for sharing that. I’m not a pool room biz owner but if I was one with old beat up tables and was looking to refresh the fleet, I would definitely seriously consider such a deal vs going with new Diamonds - actually seems like a no brainer to me, surprised you didn’t get more traction with that model. Once again, have to assume vendor financing or loan/promotion incentives of some kind for new production tables had to have factored into those decisions…?
 
phreaticus said:
Thanks for sharing that. I’m not a pool room biz owner but if I was one with old beat up tables and was looking to refresh the fleet, I would definitely seriously consider such a deal vs going with new Diamonds - actually seems like a no brainer to me, surprised you didn’t get more traction with that model. Once again, have to assume vendor financing or loan/promotion incentives of some kind for new production tables had to have factored into those decisions…?
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You got to realize as well that a pool hall owner would rather buy a new table and use the old one till the new one came in then only be without a money making table for a day as they are swapped out ,as opposed to loosing a money paying table for atleast a month to have it restored.
 
skip100 said:
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Just received this in my inbox:

CueSports International (CSI), parent company of the BCA Pool League and USA Pool League, is excited to announce a truly groundbreaking partnership that makes Predator Apex the official pool table of CSI, the BCA Pool League and the USA Pool League. Predator Apex Premier League Edition tables will now be used in all CSI, BCA Pool League and USA Pool League events beginning with the CSI Western Canadian Championships, August 16-20, in Red Deer, Alberta, Canada.
...
CSI league events will use the 7-foot Predator Apex Premier League Edition table that has been meticulously designed as a collaboration between CSI and Predator for maximum performance, reliability, and fun. With its 25mm one-piece pure Brazilian slate, overbuilt frame and composite legs, each capable of supporting the entire weight of the table, it boasts strength and stability. With its 4.5 inch perfectly flush pockets, ultra-black matte fingerprint resistant finish, pocket sound dampening, tracks that prevent chalk from getting stuck in the table, and a ball return system designed to be quiet and keep the balls clean, every detail has been carefully considered to provide the ultimate league playing experience.
...
Below are just a few of the upcoming events that will feature the new 7-foot Predator Apex Premier League Edition table:
  • Aug 16-20: CSI Western Canadian Championships
  • Sep 20-25: CSI Michigan State Championships
  • Oct 19-23: CSI Ohio State Championships
  • Nov 8-13: CSI Oklahoma State Championships
  • Nov 15-22: Caribbean CueSports International Expo
  • Feb 22-Mar 4: CueSports International Expo
  • Feb 22-Mar 4: BCA Pool League World Championships
  • Feb 22-Mar 4: USA Pool League National Championships
  • and many more to come!
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Seven foot tables, you have to be kidding. Do any serious adults play on seven foot tables. If it isn't nine feet its a toy.
 
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