CTE Aiming Systems - Fact or Fiction? Includes Pro One (a variation of CTE)
CTE Aiming Systems - Fact or Fiction?
- Thread starter Redneck Jim
- Start date
Fact. And for the record I am highly disappointed in Stan Shuffet's decision to not do the video.
I think I might go ahead and do some of my own with what I now know about CTE and try to prove why it works.
The other night I played five sets with a top player here in Xiamen. Normally this guy waxes me without mercy.
I played five sets and won two and lost three. But the ones I lost were close and everyone was complimenting me on my shotmaking. I was making shots from places that were difficult and awkward.
I will say this - it's NOT a magic bullet. It's not something that you can really TRUST right away on every shot. You MUST PRACTICE and get comfortable with it and you will start to see that your BRIDGE HAND PLACEMENT is correct. With a little practice (or a lot depending on each person) you just start to see it as you are moving into the shot.
The key is Bridge Hand Placement.
I go this tidbit from another CTE Angel.
There is only ONE Bridge Hand Placement that works. Not 1cm to the left not 1cm to the right. Only one. Put your hand in the right place and stroke right through the center of the cueball and the object ball goes in.
What CTE does is put your bridge hand on that spot.
I am so so so unhappy with this announcement by Stan. The reason is that I know that it can be explained and shown.
By the way, the player I played the other night? He also uses CTE naturally. I watched him VERY VERY closely paying attention to exactly what he is doing with his bridge hand and his cue stick and he does exactly the same motion that I do when consciously using CTE. I am pretty sure he never learned CTE per se and am equally sure that a lot of top players do in fact do this naturally as it's an easy way to "see" that your bridge hand is aligned just right.
CTE is surely fact. And it surely works. I play about ten minutes every hour or so when I get up from my desk and the sound of the balls hitting the back of the pocket is very gratifying. I keep trying to find some way to trip up the system and I can't. CTE works for straight in shots (remember BRIDGE HAND PLACEMENT) as well as extreme cut shots. It really is the nuts.
I wish like hell that Dr. Dave would go to Stan Shuffet's or to Dave Segal's place and really learn it. Because then I am sure Dave would see that it's real and it works AND he would then be able to use his engineer's mind to show how it works.
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I'm glad to hear that you are considering this. I watched the videos at the link you posted in another thread, and you make it look so easy.
I've been quiet on the subject lately, awaiting more information from people who say they can explain it fully to me. It seems like I'm always in that position.
I waited for spidey to show me via webcam, which morphed into the webinar.
I waited for the webinar and it never materialized.
Many were waiting on Stan's video but now he's too busy.
I waited for JB to show me via video, and he DID eventually come through... sort of.
DISCLAIMER: I'm about to be a dick to JB =/ John, you're a cool guy so I feel bad for calling you out here... but you're kind of the face of CTE and its biggest proponent now that spidey's gone quiet on it and stan's bailed. I hope you believe me when I say this isn't anything personal.
What I saw was a video of a guy drilling in balls. There was no pivot. His initial alignment for the shots were good, but it had nothing to do with centers or edges. He says his eyes see the center to the edge at the start of the process, and I don't think he's lying, but the camera shows the stick pointing off in space, never at the edge.
JB's admitted what he was doing wasn't "real" CTE, he's been pretty straight with me about that. But recently he said he learned the real version of CTE and he would gather his thoughts (or something) and show me. So now I'm waiting on that.
The bind I find myself in is that JB, Spidey, and Stan are all nice guys. Hal too, probably. I can't come right out and say I think CTE is bullshìt without offending them. I've had many exchanges that go something like ... "well I'm telling you this is how it is, and you're saying it's not true. What, so you're basically accusing me of lying?"
I don't want to be written off as a hater who isn't giving it a fair shot. But I'm tired of waiting. I'm gonna go ahead and say this bluntly, I'm sure others have thought it... maybe stan gave up the CTE project because he realized there's no way to show it on video. It's not geometrically correct, it's not exact, it doesn't work on paper or on video, and it relies on estimations, adjustments, and feel... just like everything else (yes, even ghostball).
Those who shoot with it are applying the steps and using their own shooting experience to fill in the blanks and tweak their line of aim until balls fill the pockets. The hell of it is, I can't even be sure that CTE+feel gets them there faster than feel alone. In a recent thread JB talked about his accomplishments as a player and shotmaker, which included 98 balls in straight pool and 5-packs in 8 and 9b. He got there without CTE. After CTE, none of those numbers improved. He'll say he definitely improved as a shotmaker but... tedious as it is... I need something more than anecdotal evidence about winning a couple of sets vs. a good local in china. And if he really did improve... so what? It wasn't really CTE apparently.
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In my perfect world, it really works (even if it's based on estimation and experience) and the people who teach it freely admit that it's only a guideline, there are gaps that need to be filled in with practice, judgment, tweaking, whatever... and hopefully that adds up to better shotmaking than using no system at all.
In reality, I very strongly suspect it just gets players focused on aiming, and that focus mixed with dedicated aiming practice creates good shotmakers, who may have been just as good if they had focused and practiced using some other method. Hell, maybe they'd have turned out better using some other method.
I waited for spidey to show me via webcam, which morphed into the webinar.
I waited for the webinar and it never materialized.
Many were waiting on Stan's video but now he's too busy.
I waited for JB to show me via video, and he DID eventually come through... sort of.
DISCLAIMER: I'm about to be a dick to JB =/ John, you're a cool guy so I feel bad for calling you out here... but you're kind of the face of CTE and its biggest proponent now that spidey's gone quiet on it and stan's bailed. I hope you believe me when I say this isn't anything personal.
What I saw was a video of a guy drilling in balls. There was no pivot. His initial alignment for the shots were good, but it had nothing to do with centers or edges. He says his eyes see the center to the edge at the start of the process, and I don't think he's lying, but the camera shows the stick pointing off in space, never at the edge.
JB's admitted what he was doing wasn't "real" CTE, he's been pretty straight with me about that. But recently he said he learned the real version of CTE and he would gather his thoughts (or something) and show me. So now I'm waiting on that.
The bind I find myself in is that JB, Spidey, and Stan are all nice guys. Hal too, probably. I can't come right out and say I think CTE is bullshìt without offending them. I've had many exchanges that go something like ... "well I'm telling you this is how it is, and you're saying it's not true. What, so you're basically accusing me of lying?"
I don't want to be written off as a hater who isn't giving it a fair shot. But I'm tired of waiting. I'm gonna go ahead and say this bluntly, I'm sure others have thought it... maybe stan gave up the CTE project because he realized there's no way to show it on video. It's not geometrically correct, it's not exact, it doesn't work on paper or on video, and it relies on estimations, adjustments, and feel... just like everything else (yes, even ghostball).
Those who shoot with it are applying the steps and using their own shooting experience to fill in the blanks and tweak their line of aim until balls fill the pockets. The hell of it is, I can't even be sure that CTE+feel gets them there faster than feel alone. In a recent thread JB talked about his accomplishments as a player and shotmaker, which included 98 balls in straight pool and 5-packs in 8 and 9b. He got there without CTE. After CTE, none of those numbers improved. He'll say he definitely improved as a shotmaker but... tedious as it is... I need something more than anecdotal evidence about winning a couple of sets vs. a good local in china. And if he really did improve... so what? It wasn't really CTE apparently.
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In my perfect world, it really works (even if it's based on estimation and experience) and the people who teach it freely admit that it's only a guideline, there are gaps that need to be filled in with practice, judgment, tweaking, whatever... and hopefully that adds up to better shotmaking than using no system at all.
In reality, I very strongly suspect it just gets players focused on aiming, and that focus mixed with dedicated aiming practice creates good shotmakers, who may have been just as good if they had focused and practiced using some other method. Hell, maybe they'd have turned out better using some other method.
It seems those willing to share can't explain it fully and those who know won't tell. There has got to be something to it or people wouldn't be so protective of it. Hal seems to have created something of a CTE messiah of himself. Not that I think he intends anyone to drink koolaide but he has collected (intentionally or unintentionally) a devout group of believers. These believers definitely preach to the masses claims of miracles happening. From all I can tell the information is disseminated in a very selective manner with some implying that the knowledge is only available to those who will work for it. I get the impression it's only available to those deemed worthy enough. It seems to be either a brilliant marketing strategy or a product of the free masons, maybe both.
I'm not trying to start anything with this post. I'm just calling it how I see it. It would be great if anyone with intimate knowledge of how CTE works and is properly taught would step forward and either produce a good DVD/tutorial or just come out and say you have to take a class. Either through coincidence or intention CTE people give the impression that there is an NDA involved with the dissemination of key parts of the system. Whatever the cause strait, informative answers seem impossible to come by.
I don't know all the details but Stan dropping the video just reinforces my perception of whats going on. No one owes me an explanation nor do I expect one but the video dropping seems in-line with everything else I have seen involving CTE information. The people who can teach won't, or at least won't for free. Again, that's fine. Just say take the class if you want to know. This song and dance is getting old. Intentional or not.
JB: It's entirely possible that the Chinese have worked out something similar to CTE independently. In geology the Japanese had VMS deposits worked out about 40 years before anyone did in English. There was unneeded replication because no one had translated the relevant papers that were there for anyone willing to put the effort in.
I'm not trying to start anything with this post. I'm just calling it how I see it. It would be great if anyone with intimate knowledge of how CTE works and is properly taught would step forward and either produce a good DVD/tutorial or just come out and say you have to take a class. Either through coincidence or intention CTE people give the impression that there is an NDA involved with the dissemination of key parts of the system. Whatever the cause strait, informative answers seem impossible to come by.
I don't know all the details but Stan dropping the video just reinforces my perception of whats going on. No one owes me an explanation nor do I expect one but the video dropping seems in-line with everything else I have seen involving CTE information. The people who can teach won't, or at least won't for free. Again, that's fine. Just say take the class if you want to know. This song and dance is getting old. Intentional or not.
JB: It's entirely possible that the Chinese have worked out something similar to CTE independently. In geology the Japanese had VMS deposits worked out about 40 years before anyone did in English. There was unneeded replication because no one had translated the relevant papers that were there for anyone willing to put the effort in.
I'm a complete nobody and just a guy who can beat the 9 ball ghost on my eight footer but my final thought is that the reason that so many guys are so passionately against CTE is because they believe that novice players will actually progress slower in the overall game of pool being that position is so much more important than shot making.
For example we are constantly jacked up by the rail or balls and we need english on the shot to get shape to get out. Feel is required here.
For example we are constantly jacked up by the rail or balls and we need english on the shot to get shape to get out. Feel is required here.
Luxury, you won't ever get it until you actually experience it. I am a complete nobody who has put a five pack on Wiseman and played some real jam up pool in my life as well.
I can tell you that playing position when using CTE is WAY WAY WAY easier.
Why?
Because knowing that you are on the EXACT line to make the ball allows you to see the tangent lines so much clearer that it's scary.
You say position is more important than making the ball? How many times do you see players who get perfect shape but they missed the shot?
Of course you see it ALL THE TIME. Why is that?
In my opinion it's because they are setting up on the cue ball loaded up for shape without even being on the right line to make the ball OR they guessed wrong in how much to adjust for deflection.
I have been playing for 28 years and I was playing for money when I was 12.
CTE is the easily the strongest technique I have ever learned in pool. Because I feel strongly that lining up properly IS the basis for all success in pool. How many of us know that guy with a super stroke who can make the ball dance but he misses a lot? The guy who can make all the shots beats the super stroker all the time because he simply makes more balls.
I need to start just free-filming my practicing. You will see sick sick sick shotmaking coupled with precision position play. I have been using real CTE for a week and my game is already up a ball.
Anyway, until SOMEONE can show the world how to do this in easy to understand terms it will remain a debated topic. Working on it.
I will teach it for free to everyone once I have mastered it. That's all Hal ever asked of me.
I doubt that the Chinese are doing CTE or any other fractional ball aiming. I just have a hunch that really good players sort of fall into it naturally.
Once you have used CTE for a little while it truly feels fluid and natural like I imagine (key word imagine) that I would play if I had never learned ghost ball and could just see the right lines.
Although next time I get a chance I will will ask one of the foremost coaches in China how he teaches aiming. All of his students are deadly accurate.
Dude, no offense taken. But until you do get someone to really show you how it goes you will never get it.
As for my pre-system numbers you have to understand that when I put those numbers up I was playing ALL THE TIME. I worked really hard doing the million balls method to get there and that was still the PINNACLE of my achievements.
When I learned a fractional ball system from Hal I was already not playing very much anymore. I went out once a week for league and maybe once or twice for tournaments. And when at tournaments or league I was always "at work" answering case questions, taking orders, selling etc....
I told you in private that I had not even played three games of straight pool after learning Hal's systems. My 98 ball run was in 1990. All in all if I have played 30 games of straight pool in my life then I am exaggerating it by five at least.
But I did manage to win a couple tournaments against good players shortly after learning Hal's system. I also took down the money in gambling sessions many times.
An aiming system however still can't replace nerves, can't replace a bad attitude, can't stop me from getting pissy with myself, can't stop me from jumping up and chicken winging it, or stop me from choking on my stroke.
I can tell you 100% that I am NOT adjusting, I am not tweaking my stance based on previous experience. I made the SICKEST shot in the world an hour ago and I guarantee you I had never ever ever in my whole life shot that shot. In fact I said to myself these exact words, "lets see if CTE can handle this shot" and I shot it and watched the three ball split the pocket. I stood there and just shook my head and then missed an easy four ball.
What I am doing is making balls with more confidence, making balls that are sick shots and running out more often.
CTE doesn't rely on feel, estimations, and adjustments. Well it MIGHT but they are tiny estimations and adjustments that happen in a split second.
The APPROACH however has NOTHING to do with feel and adjustments and estimations. The approach, the steps you take are THE SAME every time.
But you're right.
Until you are taught this definitively you will never understand it.
By the way the "good local" in China can hold his own against 90% of top players in the USA. I will stake this guy against any non-pro who wants to come and get some. Where I live has over 100 poolrooms with more than 30 tables and in every poolroom there is at least one Taiwanese professional who is the "house pro". There are plenty of top notch players here in Xiamen. No one has to like it trying to beat these guys out of money.
I play them for stakes like $15 a set because I don't dare bet more. Not only do they have the game they have backers with very deep pockets.
So if you saw how good my opponent is then you'd understand.
Two weeks ago, I started an experiment. I hung a small bell at the butt of my playing cue and played with it. I haven't lost a match since then.
Conclusion: The bell hugely improved my game! I wish I could explain to you how it works, but I don't want to give away the secret. But don't worry, I'm going to sell magic bells for 50$ a piece. They will revolutionize the way you are playing pool.
Hahaha! Ok, not funny...
The point is, I don't know how many times I was convinced that some twitching motion or some funny arm movement during warm up strokes was supposed to do magic. Most of it didn't really work. It was just a placebo effect. And that's the way I see CTE systems (in fact all pivot based systems). I also think that those who believe CTE really works are sincere, but they are ultimately deluding themselves. And to me it doesn't even matter who believes it. Ralf Souquet could talk to me in person and say: "It just works, wanker. I've won all my titles using CTE." I need proof. Proof that he really uses the system and is not just saying he does. And proof that the system is accurate which hasn't been demonstrated yet.
Conclusion: The bell hugely improved my game! I wish I could explain to you how it works, but I don't want to give away the secret. But don't worry, I'm going to sell magic bells for 50$ a piece. They will revolutionize the way you are playing pool.
Hahaha! Ok, not funny...
The point is, I don't know how many times I was convinced that some twitching motion or some funny arm movement during warm up strokes was supposed to do magic. Most of it didn't really work. It was just a placebo effect. And that's the way I see CTE systems (in fact all pivot based systems). I also think that those who believe CTE really works are sincere, but they are ultimately deluding themselves. And to me it doesn't even matter who believes it. Ralf Souquet could talk to me in person and say: "It just works, wanker. I've won all my titles using CTE." I need proof. Proof that he really uses the system and is not just saying he does. And proof that the system is accurate which hasn't been demonstrated yet.
Pro One: Know little about it.
CTE: IMHO it works if you work on learning it!
CTE: IMHO it works if you work on learning it!
John,
Thank you for putting yourself out there and speaking your mind about CTE. I'm sure there are alot of lurkers, myself included, that are more than mildly curious about your new success with it. Some will understandably never agree with you because it has not been hard copied and mathematically proven. That's human nature. Some will be open minded and work for many hours and believe in what they are doing. I am in the second group and I've found some very interesting things happening to my game. Only time will tell how far it can take me.
I used to teach the baseball swing to high school players. With some hitters I could simply speak to them about what they are doing and they would get it. Most needed to perform the movement while I coached them. Some never got it. Again, I am in the second group. I physically must perform the task. I've been working with a pivot system and I've felt like giving up. But I can say when you start to get it the balls really drop in the pockets. Those moments are what keep you going to refine and develop your feel and consistency...the keys to any sport.
I'm looking forward to your instructional efforts and keeping an open mind especially when somebody is going out of their way to improve my game with no strings attached.
Best,
Mike
Thank you for putting yourself out there and speaking your mind about CTE. I'm sure there are alot of lurkers, myself included, that are more than mildly curious about your new success with it. Some will understandably never agree with you because it has not been hard copied and mathematically proven. That's human nature. Some will be open minded and work for many hours and believe in what they are doing. I am in the second group and I've found some very interesting things happening to my game. Only time will tell how far it can take me.
I used to teach the baseball swing to high school players. With some hitters I could simply speak to them about what they are doing and they would get it. Most needed to perform the movement while I coached them. Some never got it. Again, I am in the second group. I physically must perform the task. I've been working with a pivot system and I've felt like giving up. But I can say when you start to get it the balls really drop in the pockets. Those moments are what keep you going to refine and develop your feel and consistency...the keys to any sport.
I'm looking forward to your instructional efforts and keeping an open mind especially when somebody is going out of their way to improve my game with no strings attached.
Best,
Mike
Well, there are certain things that defy the placebo effect and one of them is making the balls go in the pockets.
If you are any kind of a pool player you know full well when you are playing better. You know when you are making tougher shots consistently or not.
I don't have any clue how good you are. I know how good I am. I know exactly what I am doing.
The thing is what sort of "proof" works for you? How do you know that I am doing what I say I am?
Would super slow motion work for you? Set up shots? Overhead views?
Some of the smartest people in pool use CTE and similar systems. So while I may be just a dumb ass case maker who is deluding himself into playing much better using CTE there are people who are much more rational than me who use it. These include engineers and professional players.
Just because you don't know how it works and it hasn't been proven to your satisfaction doesn't mean it doesn't exist and doesn't work.
Jack Carr traveled around the USA hustling people and doing shows by making the cue ball spin all sorts of ways. Jack was English so the effect he was putting on the balls (spin) came to be known in America as "English". I am sure a lot of folks back then thought it was black magic until he revealed CHALK to them.
The fact of the matter is that CTE does in fact exist - it works, and it's accurate. Now someday someone will PROVE that in a manner that is easy to understand and everyone will say wow, that's all there is to it?
As to why it's difficult to explain on paper I'd refer you to this book, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance - if you manage to get through this book you will understand the difference between experiencing something that works and explaining how it works.
Anyway, like I said, I am building a little studio with four cameras or so and when I feel confident enough in how to explain in detail what I am doing and have achieved the technical expertise to properly capture it on video then I will do my best to explain CTE.
It's definitely not a placebo in any way shape or form. But if you don't know how to do it then I can see a natural inclination to dismiss it as such.
What I do not understand is many sing the praises of CTE, and others only ARGUE ABOUT CTE, without trying it? After talking on the phone with a forum member who knows CTE, I see how it can be used for BANKS!!!!!!
Now before some one says but Cowboy you talk smak about Geno's System, let me say I saw the Perfect Aiming DVD Twice, and think less of it after viewing the DVD!
Now before some one says but Cowboy you talk smak about Geno's System, let me say I saw the Perfect Aiming DVD Twice, and think less of it after viewing the DVD!
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IMOP its a fact, easy as pie! you can easily adjust your speed of hits and pocket the ball..rep to ya buddy:thumbup:
its like your lines are nice and tangent.....your cue in line, your body...it puts you where you need to be and you put the ball in the hole.
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Being Left Handed, Right Eye dominant, it some time take me longer to see right. I am OK with normal stuff after 3 weeks, but honestly the Banking thing is still in the learning curve process! One thing i find in use CTE is that sometime my mind says the shot will not go. I shoot it anyway, and BAM in the Pocket it went, this is something that I still need confidence, it will work when the math is right.
I wish people would not question Stan's integrity without any basis. Stan has stated publicly that he believes CTE/Pro One is an exact system. He could be wrong about that, but I'm accepting the fact that he believes it.
He has stated that his reason for indefinite postponement of the video is a business decision. "Business decision" normally means the decision is a financial one. Perhaps he feels that a video right now might reduce the number of students who take in-person lessons from him and that the income from the video might not fully offset that loss. I certainly don't know, but it's his future income he is evaluating and his right to do what he feels is best.
I'm getting used to people saying "don't call me/him a liar" every time I question something CTE related. It's cool.
Stan's probably a good guy but sometimes our PR announcements don't match our private reasons. Little white lies are a part of life. Did you also make sure to scold the guy who suggested that stan put it on hold because Hal didn't want it released?
If this thing is as good AS CLAIMED, there's no way he doesn't make a bucket of cash from a well-done video explaining it. We had plenty of people jumping on that thread saying "sign me up".
I pretty much feel the same way and have been saying for a long time that the reason CTE works for some is that it just gets them more focused in on the aiming process. Certainly not because of any edges or pivoting.
But, people will believe what they want. At one time in my life I was the USAF spokesman at the Pentagon for Project Blue Book -- you know, the AF study into all the UFO sightings. It never ceased to amaze me how, no matter what the scientific evidence to the contrary was, just how much people wanted (or needed) to believe what they wanted to believe anyway. Even to this day, people who know my background will sidle up to me and say, "We got 'em, don't we. Area 51. Little guys. Reverse engineering..." And you can just tell they want to believe in it in the very worst way.
I always tell them that with the right amount of tequila, a hot tub, and a couple of blondes, I will tell them everything
Lou Figueroa
you gotta
give em hope
I always tell them that with the right amount of tequila, a hot tub, and a couple of blondes, I will tell them everything
Lou Figueroa
you gotta
give em hope
The Truth is out there...
