CTE Manual Pivot Questions

KenK

KenK

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’ve recently started exploring with the manual pivot for CTE aiming after watching Stans video several times (I focused mostly on the Manual CTE part of the video) and I have questions that I could use some help clarifying.

Question 1: I was hoping somebody could explain the logic of the manual pivot for me. If I understand it correctly, it’s to bring you back to center cue ball. If this is the case, than why couldn’t you still maintain your CTE CB visuals but align your stance to center cue ball?

Question 2 – How to determine if the shot is calling for a right pivot or a left pivot? Does anybody have any suggestions that helped them through the learning process in determining if it should be a left pivot or a right pivot other than trial and error (which I am in the process of working through)? Initially (and maybe I was hoping a bit), that there was a constant variable which would determine the pivot direction. For example, if the CTEL was on the right, it was a right pivot and vice versa for the left. I know this is not the case but I do not understand why.

Additionally, here is an example that was provided in the practice worksheet for the “Manual” Basic CTE. On the practice sheet we have the two following shots which are cut shots to the same pocket.

First shot: CB: 21 OB: 13 CTEL: R OBP: B Pocket: 3 Pivot: L Angle: 22

Second shot: CB: 28 OB: 20 CTEL: R OBP: B Pocket: 3 Pivot: R Angle: 22

These are two very similar shots, for the exception of the distance of the object balls to the pocket but yet the pivot is different and Im not sure why.

Any clarification provided on the above would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
 
I don't have the diagrams with me, but I will say in general when cutting to the left you will use a left pivot - starting left of center and pivoting to center, also referred to as an "inside" pivot since you are starting from the inside of center in relation to the cut.

When cutting to the right, you will generally use a right pivot, starting right of center and pivoting to center. Again, referred to as an inside pivot.

These same-side pivots are generally used because for most cut angles the initial alignment puts you in a position where the cut would be too thick, so pivoting thinner or away from the cut angle puts you on the correct line when you reach center ball.

Exceptions would be for straight in or very thick cuts, say up to about 12 - 14 degrees, although this is more of a visual thing and not necessarily a hard cut off based on the exact cut angle. Distance and perception comes into play. There are also a few cuts that can occur in between boundaries of the system, like say when you switch from an A to B perception, where pivoting the opposite way (outside, or non-obvious pivot) will make the ball more cleanly. Those require experience to identify and seldom come up, several examples are on the DVD.

Work with those generalizations and they might help accelerate your understanding of when to use which pivot.
Scott
 
scottjen26 said:
I don't have the diagrams with me, but I will say in general when cutting to the left you will use a left pivot - starting left of center and pivoting to center, also referred to as an "inside" pivot since you are starting from the inside of center in relation to the cut.

When cutting to the right, you will generally use a right pivot, starting right of center and pivoting to center. Again, referred to as an inside pivot.

These same-side pivots are generally used because for most cut angles the initial alignment puts you in a position where the cut would be too thick, so pivoting thinner or away from the cut angle puts you on the correct line when you reach center ball.

Exceptions would be for straight in or very thick cuts, say up to about 12 - 14 degrees, although this is more of a visual thing and not necessarily a hard cut off based on the exact cut angle. Distance and perception comes into play. There are also a few cuts that can occur in between boundaries of the system, like say when you switch from an A to B perception, where pivoting the opposite way (outside, or non-obvious pivot) will make the ball more cleanly. Those require experience to identify and seldom come up, several examples are on the DVD.

Work with those generalizations and they might help accelerate your understanding of when to use which pivot.
Scott
Click to expand...

Before CTE/Pro1 came out on DVD, I tried to document the results of CTE using a 1/2 tip offset and pivoting to center using the edge of the CB (secondary) to aim at fractions on the OB. Later it was said (Stan) that most cuts to the left will use a pivot to the right (PR) but some angles in between use a pivot to the left (PL).

Hal said that the straight in shot did not require a pivot just shoot center of the CB at the center of the OB. The 30 degree cut or CTE would aim the center of the CB at the edge of the OB and shoot straight (ST) without an offset or pivot.

Then Stan identified some fractions on the OB like (left to right0 1/4 would be "A"; 1/2 would be "B"; and 3/4 would be "C" and then 1/8.

CTE ABC-Model.jpg

I have said that CTE works for those that use it.
 
LAMas said:
Before CTE/Pro1 came out on DVD, I tried to document the results of CTE using a 1/2 tip offset and pivoting to center using the edge of the CB (secondary) to aim at fractions on the OB. Later it was said (Stan) that most cuts to the left will use a pivot to the right (PR) but some angles in between use a pivot to the left (PL).

Hal said that the straight in shot did not require a pivot just shoot center of the CB at the center of the OB. The 30 degree cut or CTE would aim the center of the CB at the edge of the OB and shoot straight (ST) without an offset or pivot.

Then Stan identified some fractions on the OB like (left to right0 1/4 would be "A"; 1/2 would be "B"; and 3/4 would be "C" and then 1/8.

View attachment 275346

I have said that CTE works for those that use it.
Click to expand...

Thank you both for taking the time to respond but if I'm reading each response correctly regarding the direction of the pivots, they seem to conflict each other....
 
The visual you get isn't the aim line, it is what Stan has called the visual perception. The purpose of the pivot is to put you on the proper aim line to stroke the CB.

The direction of the pivot depends upon the cut angle. For thicker cuts, let's use a thick cut to the left as an example. That would be CTE, ETA as your visual. You would pivot from right to left in order to thicken the cut as the visual described would in and of itself be too thin.

Which pivot to choose? Stan's statement is practice, practice and more practice will provide the experience you need to start automatically recognizing the cut angles and appropriate visuals and pivots. I think most people have a reasonable idea of what the cut would be if you were using feel, ghost ball or whatever other system you might use. Line up as if you were going to shoot in that manner. Let's say that would have a 1/3 ball hit, cut to the right. Your visual would be CTE, ETB and in this case, you would pivot right to left to thin out the cut a bit. Why? Well you know CTE, ETB gives you an approximate 1/2 ball hit, you know the cut is thinner than that so your pivot direction has to reflect that.

That's how I've been practicing and using Pro One. It can be tricky on some cut angles as it is less than obvious. When I have some doubt, I will take a look at the OB when I'm down ready to shoot. If it looks good, shoot it. If it looks off quite a bit, then I've probably chosen the wrong perception and or pivot. I find myself recognizing the ones that have fooled me in the past more often. In some cases, I may not remember what was right, I just remember it fooled me before. For whatever reason, I find reverse cuts down the length of the table require a lot of thought. Cuts along the end rail generally seem to be less of a cut than they really are when I first started working with Pro One, i.e., I was always cutting to thick on them due to the wrong visual and/or wrong pivot. The more I practice, the more I find this knowledge bank growing.

I hope this helps.
 
Nobcitypool, Thank you for the clarification and the logic behind the pivot. Conceptually I now have a better understanding of the pivot and hopefully I can translate my better understanding into my practice sessions!
 
Hi Ken, see my replies below.

KenK said:
I’ve recently started exploring with the manual pivot for CTE aiming after watching Stans video several times (I focused mostly on the Manual CTE part of the video) and I have questions that I could use some help clarifying.

Question 1: I was hoping somebody could explain the logic of the manual pivot for me. If I understand it correctly, it’s to bring you back to center cue ball. If this is the case, than why couldn’t you still maintain your CTE CB visuals but align your stance to center cue ball?

Question 2 – How to determine if the shot is calling for a right pivot or a left pivot? Does anybody have any suggestions that helped them through the learning process in determining if it should be a left pivot or a right pivot other than trial and error (which I am in the process of working through)? Initially (and maybe I was hoping a bit), that there was a constant variable which would determine the pivot direction. For example, if the CTEL was on the right, it was a right pivot and vice versa for the left. I know this is not the case but I do not understand why.

Additionally, here is an example that was provided in the practice worksheet for the “Manual” Basic CTE. On the practice sheet we have the two following shots which are cut shots to the same pocket.

First shot: CB: 21 OB: 13 CTEL: R OBP: B Pocket: 3 Pivot: L Angle: 22

Second shot: CB: 28 OB: 20 CTEL: R OBP: B Pocket: 3 Pivot: R Angle: 22

These are two very similar shots, for the exception of the distance of the object balls to the pocket but yet the pivot is different and Im not sure why.

Any clarification provided on the above would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

Q1 answer: Each given visual always put you in an alignment that is exactly 1/2 tip from center cue ball. You always move 1/2 tip left or right from the fixed cueball position. That is just the mechanics of the system.

Q2 answer: Ok read this very carefully, as so many get this wrong on this forum. The choice between left and right pivot is NOT strictly angle-based. The choice depends on the entire visual. That is, distance between the OB and CB matter, placement on the table matters, etc. Not just angles. Thankfully Stan has made this easy to learn through observation. The key is to practice the shots on the DVD. These shots are purposely designed to train you on specific pivots for specific visuals. By practicing these shots you learn key visuals to unlock the infinite number of other similar shots on the table. So the answer is, practice the shots on the DVD, let your brain train itself to recognize these shots. In time you will quickly adapt the correct choice for any given shot. Do not try to base your choice strictly on angles, there will be conflicting situations for sure.
 
This is true, but I still think my original response was correct in an effort to simplify things and provide a generalization. Some of the issues new people have when learning this from the first DVD is that while it's nice to have a bunch of practice shots to work with and study, they still want to know when to use what, at least as a guideline. I realize that distance and perception can change things somewhat, but in practice I find that's the exception rather than the rule.

If cutting to the left thickly, pivot from the right. If cutting to the left more than about 10 - 15 degrees, you will typically pivot from the left so that you end up thinner than the initial alignment. From the right, same concept - thick cuts from the left, normal and thinner cuts from the right. Using this as a guideline or initial choice while learning will simplify your decision making, practicing the specific shots on the DVD and experience will teach you when to deviate from this guideline. I can tell you I rarely encounter shots that require an unexpected pivot.

Scott
 
In my experience there is a common range where this comes up somewhat often. Example, first shot in pro one portion of the DVD is a 17 degree cut (28-38), and requires and inside pivot (make the shot thinner.) The third shot is a 20 degree cut (29-22) and requires and outside pivot (make the shot thicker.) Both shots are the same C line visual. It is the second shot that is the trickier one, it is easy to pivot the wrong direction on these if you don't recognize them. It is seemingly against the rules if the angle is used to determine the pivot direction.
 
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Concerning lefts cuts and the quantity of inside or left pivots vs. right pivots.

Let's use A and CTE for a left cut to start a progression.

The first of the progression is A and outside or right pivot.

Then it's A /CTE and inside or left pivot.

Now here comes the GAP that is easily overlooked.
An inside A/with CTE can be exactly interchanged with outside B/CTE.

Then it progresses to inside B.

Anyway, point being, when the interchange option is considered, I'd say that the pivots left and right for left cuts would equal out.

Stan Shuffett
 
stan shuffett said:
Concerning lefts cuts and the quantity of inside or left pivots vs. right pivots.

Let's use A and CTE for a left cut to start a progression.

The first of the progression is A and outside or right pivot.

Then it's A /CTE and inside or left pivot.

Now here comes the GAP that is easily overlooked.
An inside A/with CTE can be exactly interchanged with outside B/CTE.

Then it progresses to inside B.

Anyway, point being, when the interchange option is considered, I'd say that the pivots left and right for left cuts would equal out.

Stan Shuffett
Click to expand...

Hey Stan!

Yeah I didn't think about the question of pivot progression, which is always linear. I was trying to define the answer to "What pivot do I use for a 22 degree cut?" And the answer to that will be dependent on the given shot... am I right I hope? :)

Looking forward to Kentucky!
 
mohrt said:
Hey Stan!

Yeah I didn't think about the question of pivot progression, which is always linear. I was trying to define the answer to "What pivot do I use for a 22 degree cut?" And the answer to that will be dependent on the given shot... am I right I hope? :)

Looking forward to Kentucky!
Click to expand...

Yes, that is correct. An exact angle number means very little.

Looking forward as well.

Stan Shuffett
 
mohrt said:
In my experience there is a common range where this comes up somewhat often. Example, first shot in pro one portion of the DVD is a 17 degree cut (28-38), and requires and inside pivot (make the shot thinner.) The third shot is a 20 degree cut (9-26) and requires and outside pivot (make the shot thicker.) Both shots are the same C line visual. It is the second shot that is the trickier one, it is easy to pivot the wrong direction on these if you don't recognize them. It is seemingly against the rules if the angle is used to determine the pivot direction.
Click to expand...

It is not against the rules to use angles. it's simply not necessary to know or think you must know angle numbers for any given shot. It is totally not needed to think in term of angle numbers. Using angles as a reference for your aim point choices is a sure-fire way to break down very quickly.

As for recognition of which way to pivot or sweep, that becomes automatic. That will mostly happen when one is learning CTE ORO ONE.

Lastly, CTE PRO ONE takes you to the shot line. For any given CB/OB relation there can be multiple pocket options. It becomes second nature to know that one rotation or the other allows for different connections or routes to pockets.

Again, manual pivoting is weird, odd and not natural but it's a great way to test shots. The visual sweep is natural and most every pro can be observed sweeping into CCB.

Stan Shuffett
 
Stan,

I hate to bother you about this subject as it has been asked numerous times before but when is the new DVD coming out?

The more I read about CTE the more I get confused & it seems too complicated.

Please keep in mind, as I do, that I have not even gone through the kindergarden of CTE. My only exposure to it is what I have read here on AZB.

But...I am still intrigued by it, especially after seeing the videos that have been posted on AZB.

So... when can I get the new DVD so I can go to CTE School, the fall session is only three(3) months away.:wink:

Best Regards,
 
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ENGLISH! said:
Stan,

I hate to bother you about this subject as it has been asked numerous times before but when is the new DVD coming out?

The more I read about CTE the more I get confused & it seems too complicated.

Please keep in mind, as I do, that I have not even gone through the kindergarden of CTE. My only exposure to it is what I have read here on AZB.

But...I am still intrigued by it, especially after seeing the videos that have been posted on AZB.

So... when can I get the new DVD so I can go to CTE School, the fall session is only three(2) months away.:wink:

Best Regards,
Click to expand...

Sorry, as I depend on others.. SPRING/SUMMER

Stan Shuffett
 
Stan, lets say I'm looking at a shot and I don't know which visual and/or pivot to use. We're playing 9 ball, I'm on the 9, hill-hill, $2,500 won if I hit the shot. What do you look at and/or think about to determine the right visual and/or pivot to utilize?
 
I will defer to Stan, since he created the system, but in my experience for the last 2 years, the alignments and pivots are linear. They really would have to be for the system to work, and there is a similar linear progression with 90/90, SEE, etc. Again, maybe there is some new information regarding the geometry and how it fits the table - something which I'm interested in seeing as a student - but I doubt it will change how I use the system.

There may be some distance or perceptual things at work where a 17 degree shot will be hit differently than a 22 degree shot, but given the same relative distance between the cue ball and object balls, the alignments and pivots are linear.

If cutting to the left, and again assuming normal distance of 1 - 3 or 4 diamonds, you would use A/outside (right) pivot. Then A/inside (left) pivot. Then B/outside, B/inside, C/outside, C/inside, etc. And once you get past the A alignments, you very rarely need to use the opposite pivot, only for a small range of angles and those are recognizable with practice, you will get to sense that the ball won't go in cleanly with the other pivot/alignment, especially on tight equipment. But as Stan said, they are technically interchangable, so a very subtle difference.

Also, just as a guideline, the transitions between alignments occur roughly at 3/4, 1/2, and 1/4 ball hits. Again, not perfectly, but close, and a good guideline for beginners. I think newcomers are constantly hunting for a better way to know what alignment and pivot to use, and these are great guidelines. That, and shooting the reference shots, and practice to build your visual acuity and confidence, is what takes the system to another level.

I always have a pretty strong sense of the CTE line, since that's how I first learned it, and from that perception I can tell easily if I need to pivot toward or away from the shot, even if I didn't know from experience. I can also tell if a pivot to the inside won't be enough to make the ball, in which case I need to go to the next alignment (A to B for instance). I've noticed this initial assessment has made me far more accurate and confident once I took that approach, just taking an extra second to look at it from a standing position to make sure I'm lined up vs. just trusting an alignment and missing.

Stan, please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is certainly how I approach things and I shoot pretty well… I don't find myself saying Oops, that was a B/outside when I lined up as an A/inside. It's pretty automatic and also pretty straight forward, not tricky at all as sometimes it's made to seem. Distance can factor in, and those adjustments (close or far) do take some time to factor in and trust, but it's surprising how often we are within the normal ranges of 1 - 4 diamonds with no adjustment required.

Scott
 
Hey Scott,

Agreed the pivot progression is always linear, I don't think there was ever a question about that. It is the transitions between alignments that can differ. To be honest, there is really one major one that comes to mind which is *very* evident on the 29-22 shot. Set that up and you will see that instinctively you may want to use an inside pivot on this, but it is actually outside that works. I'm sure Stan put this shot ont the DVD on purpose for this reason. It is on the very edge of CTEL/C with a left pivot.

cheers!
Monte
 
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scottjen26 said:
I will defer to Stan, since he created the system, but in my experience for the last 2 years, the alignments and pivots are linear. They really would have to be for the system to work, and there is a similar linear progression with 90/90, SEE, etc. Again, maybe there is some new information regarding the geometry and how it fits the table - something which I'm interested in seeing as a student - but I doubt it will change how I use the system.

There may be some distance or perceptual things at work where a 17 degree shot will be hit differently than a 22 degree shot, but given the same relative distance between the cue ball and object balls, the alignments and pivots are linear.

If cutting to the left, and again assuming normal distance of 1 - 3 or 4 diamonds, you would use A/outside (right) pivot. Then A/inside (left) pivot. Then B/outside, B/inside, C/outside, C/inside, etc. And once you get past the A alignments, you very rarely need to use the opposite pivot, only for a small range of angles and those are recognizable with practice, you will get to sense that the ball won't go in cleanly with the other pivot/alignment, especially on tight equipment. But as Stan said, they are technically interchangable, so a very subtle difference.

Also, just as a guideline, the transitions between alignments occur roughly at 3/4, 1/2, and 1/4 ball hits. Again, not perfectly, but close, and a good guideline for beginners. I think newcomers are constantly hunting for a better way to know what alignment and pivot to use, and these are great guidelines. That, and shooting the reference shots, and practice to build your visual acuity and confidence, is what takes the system to another level.

I always have a pretty strong sense of the CTE line, since that's how I first learned it, and from that perception I can tell easily if I need to pivot toward or away from the shot, even if I didn't know from experience. I can also tell if a pivot to the inside won't be enough to make the ball, in which case I need to go to the next alignment (A to B for instance). I've noticed this initial assessment has made me far more accurate and confident once I took that approach, just taking an extra second to look at it from a standing position to make sure I'm lined up vs. just trusting an alignment and missing.

Stan, please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is certainly how I approach things and I shoot pretty well… I don't find myself saying Oops, that was a B/outside when I lined up as an A/inside. It's pretty automatic and also pretty straight forward, not tricky at all as sometimes it's made to seem. Distance can factor in, and those adjustments (close or far) do take some time to factor in and trust, but it's surprising how often we are within the normal ranges of 1 - 4 diamonds with no adjustment required.

Scott
Click to expand...

Scott, I think what you are saying is correct or I am not understanding what you are asking.

I have no problem in transition areas. There is only one correct choice of visuals and pivot. Also, I do not think there are more inside pivots for left cuts than outside pivots when you factor in the outside Bs.

The Interchange for A INSIDE is exactly as B OUTSIDE. This is about what the shooters prefers concerning that interchange and it boils down being right-handed or lefty. They are geometrically the same until distance breaks B down.

Stan Shuffett
 
Good info. For as long as I've been doing this, I wish I had it down that good. What I screw up on the most is making the wrong pivot on certain shots. For the most part I do very well with it, but when I pivot wrong, I'm off alot.
I don't know if it's that I primarilly play on a 7 foot bar box so there's more different pivots. Any thoughts on that would be appreciated.
 
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