# CTE/ProOne Help Needed

#### nobcitypool

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been putting in a lot of hours with CTE/ProOne. To clarify, ProOne. I can see that it works. Taking it from the practice table where a set number of shots have been laid out with the correct visuals and pivots to the playing table is another thing altogether. It is very confusing.

To be clear, a number of shots are obvious. When there is two diamonds or more distance between the CB and OB and the cut is quite thick, quite obvious. I am wondering if there are some "tricks of the trade" for determining when the visual should go from edge to a or c to edge to b? And when will that go to from center to a or c? Then, you hit a transition point where what was a left pivot needs to be a right pivot or vice versa when more cut it required.

To be perfectly blunt, I've questioned Stan about this several times. The answers have been rather ambiguous. Mostly it has been it will come with lots of table time. Okay, understand that to a degree but surely there are some other ways to determine this aside from HAMB's, after all, I thought the idea of CTE/ProOne was to have an objective system versus a feel system.

Perhaps I'm missing something but these visuals and required pivots also aren't necessarily the same for the same cut angle dependent upon distance between CB and OB. To better explain, it seems like you may have a 30 degree cut angle and the distance between the CB and OB is 3 diamonds or more, this will be a CTE, ETC for a right cut. Same shot where the distance between CB and OB is less than 2 diamonds, seems like it shifts to CTE, ETB. My description may have not been a perfect example with the distances but I think the gist of what I'm saying should be clear. Is this true or am I mistaken in this thought? If I'm correct, again, at what point is this transition from C to B occur? What triggers it?

I have seen enough to believe in the value of ProOne, I am convinced it can work. I am practicing using the diagrams laid out by Stan and do quite well with these. Unfortunately, my opponents aren't being cooperative in allowing me to lay out my shots on these spots. They're even less understanding when I ask for a mulligan because I made a left pivot when it should have been a right pivot. One might imagine how upset they are when I explain that I need a third try this time because I used a CBE to C visual when it should have been to B. And I warn them, I may need a 4th attempt if I don't know which pivot to choose when I get the B visual.

I would add that having worked so many hours practicing ProOne, perhaps it is just me, but it sure makes it difficult transitioning back to the old style of aiming. I feel like I'm reaching a point where I either need to fully commit to ProOne or forget about it. I'd prefer to stay down the path with ProOne but playing really poorly right now is quite painful.

I'd appreciate any tips the more experienced ProOne guys can provide here. Thanks!

#### mohrt

##### Student of the Game
Silver Member
I'm sure Stan will be responding to this, but it is important to understand that CTE is a visual system, not an angle system. You can't reliably chose the pivots based on angles and ball distances alone. The shots on the DVD are specifically purposed to unlock the visuals for the other zillions of shots on the table.

An eye opener for me was shot 29-22. I would have thought this was an inside pivot (R) but it is actually an outside (L). It is borderline. However, that same angle on another part of the table could be an inside pivot.

Fortunately the number of recognized visuals needed is short. Although this appears to be a HAMB type of progression, it is more like HATB -- hit a thousand balls. For each visual you learn to recognize, you unlock a whole lot of other ones similar to it.

#### SpiderWebComm

##### HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
If CB/OB distance is 1 diamond or less, you always adjust to the next thinner OB target. So, for a left thick cut where LCBE goes to OBA, once you get within a diamond distance you go to OBB. Conversely, after about 4 diamonds (I think that's correct -- someone correct me if I'm wrong), you go to 1 target thicker (OBB to OBA for instance).

#### mohrt

##### Student of the Game
Silver Member
If CB/OB distance is 1 diamond or less, you always adjust to the next thinner OB target. So, for a left thick cut where LCBE goes to OBA, once you get within a diamond distance you go to OBB. Conversely, after about 4 diamonds (I think that's correct -- someone correct me if I'm wrong), you go to 1 target thicker (OBB to OBA for instance).

That is probably accurate for a 9' table. On a 7 footer things change. Probably closer to 5 diamonds.

#### nobcitypool

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That is probably accurate for a 9' table. On a 7 footer things change. Probably closer to 5 diamonds.

This is getting more difficult all the time. I just purchased a 9' Diamond Pro but play most of my competitive pool on 7' bar tables (actually, our "home" tables are 8' Valleys). My wife isn't going to be happy when I inform her the garage is now being taken over to install a 7' and 8' table in order to HATB's on each. LOL

#### nobcitypool

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If CB/OB distance is 1 diamond or less, you always adjust to the next thinner OB target. So, for a left thick cut where LCBE goes to OBA, once you get within a diamond distance you go to OBB. Conversely, after about 4 diamonds (I think that's correct -- someone correct me if I'm wrong), you go to 1 target thicker (OBB to OBA for instance).

Interesting. Perhaps I'm picturing this wrong, I'd appreciate your help. As the distance between CB and OB increase, the actual cut angle becomes thinner if you think about it from a quarter aiming system. What you're describing with CTE seems totally counter intuitive to me. Perhaps that is part of my struggle in trying to understand this.

#### SpiderWebComm

##### HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Interesting. Perhaps I'm picturing this wrong, I'd appreciate your help. As the distance between CB and OB increase, the actual cut angle becomes thinner if you think about it from a quarter aiming system. What you're describing with CTE seems totally counter intuitive to me. Perhaps that is part of my struggle in trying to understand this.

If it becomes thinner, don't you have to move to a thicker alignment?

#### mohrt

##### Student of the Game
Silver Member
This is getting more difficult all the time. I just purchased a 9' Diamond Pro but play most of my competitive pool on 7' bar tables (actually, our "home" tables are 8' Valleys). My wife isn't going to be happy when I inform her the garage is now being taken over to install a 7' and 8' table in order to HATB's on each. LOL

Its just the physical distance that matters, you don't have to relearn shots on different size tables. Both tables use the same size balls. But don't try to think about distance in diamonds, just learn what works with each visual.

#### BeiberLvr

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The pivot is the same as the cut direction. Cut to the left would use a left pivot and cuts to the right use a right pivot. Eventually though you won't even think about the pivot.

#### mohrt

##### Student of the Game
Silver Member
The pivot is the same as the cut direction. Cut to the left would use a left pivot and cuts to the right use a right pivot. Eventually though you won't even think about the pivot.

? AFAIK there are left and right pivots for either cut direction.

#### stan shuffett

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The pivot is the same as the cut direction. Cut to the left would use a left pivot and cuts to the right use a right pivot. Eventually though you won't even think about the pivot.

A sweep or pivot can be right or left regardless of the cut direction.

Stan Shuffett

#### mohrt

##### Student of the Game
Silver Member
Interesting. Perhaps I'm picturing this wrong, I'd appreciate your help. As the distance between CB and OB increase, the actual cut angle becomes thinner if you think about it from a quarter aiming system. What you're describing with CTE seems totally counter intuitive to me. Perhaps that is part of my struggle in trying to understand this.

I believe Stan has stated before, after a certain distance there is no longer a B perception. B would take the CTEL off the CB. All shots become A/C perceptions.

#### scottjen26

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would be more than happy to help you, as I have for others as well. Just don't have time tonight to be typing a book.

Feel free to call me or email tomorrow and I can hopefully help you cut down some of the time needed to ingrain the visuals and alignments/pivots.

Sent a PM with my info.
Scott

#### stan shuffett

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If CB/OB distance is 1 diamond or less, you always adjust to the next thinner OB target. So, for a left thick cut where LCBE goes to OBA, once you get within a diamond distance you go to OBB. Conversely, after about 4 diamonds (I think that's correct -- someone correct me if I'm wrong), you go to 1 target thicker (OBB to OBA for instance).

For CB OB relationships closer than 1 diamond on a 9 ft. table.

**If the relationship is near straight-in, the perception changes to a 7/8 overlap. So, for a very close zero angle shot there are 2 solutions.
LCBE TO LOB1/8 with CTE to ROBE
Right 1/2 tip manual pivot or right visual sweep.
Very short bridge distance required for the manual pivot and also recommended as well for the right visual sweep.
OR
RCBE TO ROB1/8 with CTE TO LOBE.
Same as above but reversed.

Depending on the slightness of the cut for these near straight-in type shots, the pivot or sweep can be from either direction.

*** There are no further adjustments for CB OB relationships closer than 1 diamond. The typical cut shots at this close distance should be treated like any other regular cut shot.

Stan Shuffett

#### gazman100

##### CTE - Qld Australia
Silver Member
I would like to add my 2 cents to learning CTE via DVD.

I've been working with CTE/PRO ONE for around a year now with lots of ups and downs. I've given up on it 100 times in total as just being too hard.

Oddly enough I find Pro one much easier than manual when I'm doing everything correctly as I understand it.

I was playing around with Pro/one today and it very definitely works.

What I believe would solve a whole bunch of confusion over CTE would be the following.

Visuals based on the players prospective, Visual lines drawn on the table showing how to move in to the two lines, where the V on the bridge goes in the manual CTE, visual lines on the floor showing how to step into the shot. In other words lots of reference lines and viewing angles so viewers can figure it out.

Alternatively I really believe to fully understand CTE you require private lessons which unfortunately is not an option for myself.
Peace :smile:

#### stan shuffett

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would like to add my 2 cents to learning CTE via DVD.

I've been working with CTE/PRO ONE for around a year now with lots of ups and downs. I've given up on it 100 times in total as just being too hard.

Oddly enough I find Pro one much easier than manual when I'm doing everything correctly as I understand it.

I was playing around with Pro/one today and it very definitely works.

What I believe would solve a whole bunch of confusion over CTE would be the following.

Visuals based on the players prospective, Visual lines drawn on the table showing how to move in to the two lines, where the V on the bridge goes in the manual CTE, visual lines on the floor showing how to step into the shot. In other words lots of reference lines and viewing angles so viewers can figure it out.

Alternatively I really believe to fully understand CTE you require private lessons which unfortunately is not an option for myself.
Peace :smile:

Pro One is really quite simple. It is just see and shoot.

The hurdle that many have difficulty with is letting go of how they previously aimed. Yes, private lessons are always optimal to other types of learning but the necessary info is on DVD1 and I still highly recommend owning it. DVD2 will be vastly superior.

CTE PRO ONE is ultimately not about lines, it's about learning 2 CTE perceptions and those perceptions are a first and major step in connecting with shot lines. THE SYSTEM TAKES THE PLAYER TO THE SHOT LINES and does so with a slight over cut. The 2 CTE perceptions make every shot on the table somewhere and most of the time that includes the pocket you're shooting for.

It's the rotation, left or right eye movement, that follows the perceptions that's necessary in arriving at CCB, the target. The OB is NOT the target.

CCB is an easy target to hit. Once it's realized that CCB is how you connect with the pockets, the focus in hitting CCB becomes amplified. The Ob represents a distortion and becomes less important.
As a result of CCB being an objective target, one's eye pattern can drastically change, even to the point of where the CB is looked at last, not the OB.
One of the difficulties that many face in hitting CCB is that when they produce the hit stroke they are not looking at their target.

I have reached the stage of looking at the CB last. It is so simple. I have the crown of the CB and the bottom of the CB as objective references for my tip position. When I am stopped at CCB, I focus on the CB, just a tick above my tip position. When I pull the cue back my attention never leaves the very small contact area of CCB. My pull back to pause is slow and my visual attention to CCB target is not interrupted by shifting to the OB. I believe this is the ultimate eye pattern for CTE.

When first learning CTE PRO ONE, I recommend staying with the tip at CCB throughout the backswing and then shifting to the OB at the pause position.
This can allow you to eventually consider the CB last as your target. Eye patterns are individual but one problem many players have is that their eye patterns are inconsistent and allow for mental and visual disconnect from the task at hand.

One final thought. Over time, the number of practice strokes in CTE can/will greatly diminish to one or two or three, perhaps none.

Stan Shuffett

#### Neil

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pro One is really quite simple. It is just see and shoot.

The hurdle that many have difficulty with is letting go of how they previously aimed. Yes, private lessons are always optimal to other types of learning but the necessary info is on DVD1 and I still highly recommend owning it. DVD2 will be vastly superior.

CTE PRO ONE is ultimately not about lines, it's about learning 2 CTE perceptions and those perceptions are a first and major step in connecting with shot lines. THE SYSTEM TAKES THE PLAYER TO THE SHOT LINES and does so with a slight over cut. The 2 CTE perceptions make every shot on the table somewhere and most of the time that includes the pocket you're shooting for.

It's the rotation, left or right eye movement, that follows the perceptions that's necessary in arriving at CCB, the target. The OB is NOT the target.

CCB is an easy target to hit. Once it's realized that CCB is how you connect with the pockets, the focus in hitting CCB becomes amplified. The Ob represents a distortion and becomes less important.
As a result of CCB being an objective target, one's eye pattern can drastically change, even to the point of where the CB is looked at last, not the OB.
One of the difficulties that many face in hitting CCB is that when they produce the hit stroke they are not looking at their target.

I have reached the stage of looking at the CB last. It is so simple. I have the crown of the CB and the bottom of the CB as objective references for my tip position. When I am stopped at CCB, I focus on the CB, just a tick above my tip position. When I pull the cue back my attention never leaves the very small contact area of CCB. My pull back to pause is slow and my visual attention to CCB target is not interrupted by shifting to the OB. I believe this is the ultimate eye pattern for CTE.

When first learning CTE PRO ONE, I recommend staying with the tip at CCB throughout the backswing and then shifting to the OB at the pause position.
This can allow you to eventually consider the CB last as your target. Eye patterns are individual but one problem many players have is that their eye patterns are inconsistent and allow for mental and visual disconnect from the task at hand.

One final thought. Over time, the number of practice strokes in CTE can/will greatly diminish to one or two or three, perhaps none.

Stan Shuffett

Stan, I think your last line says a lot about problems some have. Using 90/90 and CTE exclusively, and being very proficient in both, I would say that where most go wrong is in the practice strokes. In reality, they aren't even needed. You are already on the perfect line. Most of the time, I don't use any anymore. You HAVE to pull back slow and very straight, and then go forward on the exact same line. If you don't, you just changed your line and most likely will miss. One does need a solid PSR and fundamentals, or the systems just will not work consistently. The systems work as advertised, the problems arise with the shooter not being consistent, even when they think they are.

#### mohrt

##### Student of the Game
Silver Member
Stan, I think your last line says a lot about problems some have. Using 90/90 and CTE exclusively, and being very proficient in both, I would say that where most go wrong is in the practice strokes. In reality, they aren't even needed. You are already on the perfect line. Most of the time, I don't use any anymore. You HAVE to pull back slow and very straight, and then go forward on the exact same line. If you don't, you just changed your line and most likely will miss. One does need a solid PSR and fundamentals, or the systems just will not work consistently. The systems work as advertised, the problems arise with the shooter not being consistent, even when they think they are.

That makes total sense Neil. When you aim most your life with something like ghostball, you are always estimating the shot. Warmup strokes facilitate visual feedback for your alignment with the shot line. With CTE, you are already there. :thumbup:

#### duckie

##### GregH
Silver Member
That makes total sense Neil. When you aim most your life with something like ghostball, you are always estimating the shot. Warmup strokes facilitate visual feedback for your alignment with the shot line. With CTE, you are already there. :thumbup:

This is a false assumption. Since I am nothing but a Ghostball user, I can tell you for a fact that there is no estimation about where I am gonna put the CB.

Plus since I do shoot one handed shots where I start my stroke with the cue tip a distance from the CB and can not do any form of warm up strokes and the shot goes where I want and not where I hope( like alot of players I see) proves that warm up strokes are not needed when using Ghostball. In addition, there are other type of shots where I just pull back and stroke, no warm up needed.

How do you account for this fact? I mean I am using Ghostball and can get the cue on the aim line and stroke and the OB goes center pocket. How can this be if using ghost ball is estimating?

But then again I practice a hell of a lot more than most on here, which if you read between the system hype, they all require practice to master and one is not easier to master then the other.

Statements like the one made in the quote above is done so to justify your failure in using Ghostball and that's all.

#### 8pack

##### They call me 2 county !
Silver Member
This is a false assumption. Since I am nothing but a Ghostball user, I can tell you for a fact that there is no estimation about where I am gonna put the CB.

Plus since I do shoot one handed shots where I start my stroke with the cue tip a distance from the CB and can not do any form of warm up strokes and the shot goes where I want and not where I hope( like alot of players I see) proves that warm up strokes are not needed when using Ghostball. In addition, there are other type of shots where I just pull back and stroke, no warm up needed.

How do you account for this fact? I mean I am using Ghostball and can get the cue on the aim line and stroke and the OB goes center pocket. How can this be if using ghost ball is estimating?

But then again I practice a hell of a lot more than most on here, which if you read between the system hype, they all require practice to master and one is not easier to master then the other.
Statements like the one made in the quote above is done so to justify your failure in using Ghostball and that's all.

The ghost ball is the best!

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