I'm very interested in this. I hope to hear a few more reviews from board members who've put in some table time with it.
CTE tuning (not pro or con discussions)
- Thread starter Yoda4962
- Start date
fathomblue, and anyone else who is interested:
I'll post a review shortly in the SEE thread (which I saw you were on as well) detailing my thoughts and experiences over the past 6 weeks or so using the system.
Scott
I'll post a review shortly in the SEE thread (which I saw you were on as well) detailing my thoughts and experiences over the past 6 weeks or so using the system.
Scott
I am in the exact same boat as you are, I have watched the DVD at least half a dozen times and I am still not sure which line to move in on and line my cue up on. I even tried working the system backwards where I line up center CB on an easy cut shot then tried to pivot my cue to what that CTE starting point should be and the light still has not come on in my head, maybe I am just slow, I dont know. I have contacted Stan by email to explain the situaition and he sent me his phone number and told me to call if I still had trouble, I am about at that point. Any advice that anyone could offer would be greatly appreciated.
The point where things get "fuzzy" in aiming systems is where the objective instructions end and your "aiming instinct" must take over. The descriptions won't get more concrete from here on, but they might resonate with your subconscious and help you finish the aiming job.
pj
chgo
I bought the DVD and I have been working with CTE for a couple of weeks now off and on. I have to say I feel I am just guessing at what to do. I setup the shots that are diagrammed using donut holes. I see the CTE and the A and B or the B and C lines depending on a right or left cut.
However, I don't know what to do with my eyes. I find myself looking at the object ball. I wind up lining up the shot using other techniques and not the CTE or Pro One. I find a little success, very little, with the manual pivot but am completely lost on the Pro One. I know they say you shouldn't even try the Pro One until you know what you are doing with the manual pivot in CTE. I wanted to try it. No idea what to do. Once again, I am guessing.
I do not find that the DVD does a good job of explaining. He moves around on some of the shots and says his experience tells him what to do.
Personally, I don't think I am smart enough to figure this out. If there was an instructor in the area, which there isn't, I would seek his help. I will continue to work with it but I feel I am flying blind. If a light doesn't come on pretty soon then I will probably give it up and go back to my own style, which is a combination of shadows, ghost ball, and contact points.
I keep watching the video and trying things out on the table. It just doesn't help.
That's my experience with it.
However, I don't know what to do with my eyes. I find myself looking at the object ball. I wind up lining up the shot using other techniques and not the CTE or Pro One. I find a little success, very little, with the manual pivot but am completely lost on the Pro One. I know they say you shouldn't even try the Pro One until you know what you are doing with the manual pivot in CTE. I wanted to try it. No idea what to do. Once again, I am guessing.
I do not find that the DVD does a good job of explaining. He moves around on some of the shots and says his experience tells him what to do.
Personally, I don't think I am smart enough to figure this out. If there was an instructor in the area, which there isn't, I would seek his help. I will continue to work with it but I feel I am flying blind. If a light doesn't come on pretty soon then I will probably give it up and go back to my own style, which is a combination of shadows, ghost ball, and contact points.
I keep watching the video and trying things out on the table. It just doesn't help.
That's my experience with it.
You say you can see both lines without moving your head. OK, while at that position, keeping your head in the same spot, look at the cb. Find center on the cb, and line up your tip 1/2 tip over from center and place your bridge hand there. Now, just pivot to center, and shoot.
Try the True Angle protractor for practicing the angles
I have been practicing using the true angle protractor and the gum label dots. This protractor is perfect for setting up angles quickly & easily. The hinge part of the protractor is round and sits where the ghost ball would be. Then you set the protractor arms on the angle you want. The arms of the protractor are clear and flexible, so it makes it simple to lift up the arm and stick a gum label underneath exactly where you want it. I think I have the one with 18 inch arms.
I set a series of degrees, 10 degrees apart. Gum labels at a 20' 30, 40' and 50 degree angle. Then I shoot each 10 times before moving to the next. I start with a relatively close shot to get the feel and gain some success, then I setup longer shots.
This has allowed me to more effectively get a feel for the degrees of angles around the table.
I am still experimenting and practicing a CTE aiming system which I learned from attending Tom Simpson's pool school. I was very worried about how I would practice the technique when I got home.
I stopped into home depot and stumbled on this indispensable little gadget for about 20 bucks. Best $20 I ever spent on my pool game!
You can order it online at amazon here
Hope this helps.
Steve
I have been practicing using the true angle protractor and the gum label dots. This protractor is perfect for setting up angles quickly & easily. The hinge part of the protractor is round and sits where the ghost ball would be. Then you set the protractor arms on the angle you want. The arms of the protractor are clear and flexible, so it makes it simple to lift up the arm and stick a gum label underneath exactly where you want it. I think I have the one with 18 inch arms.
I set a series of degrees, 10 degrees apart. Gum labels at a 20' 30, 40' and 50 degree angle. Then I shoot each 10 times before moving to the next. I start with a relatively close shot to get the feel and gain some success, then I setup longer shots.
This has allowed me to more effectively get a feel for the degrees of angles around the table.
I am still experimenting and practicing a CTE aiming system which I learned from attending Tom Simpson's pool school. I was very worried about how I would practice the technique when I got home.
I stopped into home depot and stumbled on this indispensable little gadget for about 20 bucks. Best $20 I ever spent on my pool game!
You can order it online at amazon here
Hope this helps.
Steve
Last edited:
Thanks for the info Neil. I think my hang up is I tend to look at the OB. Hard to break old habits, I need to trust my eyes.
I'll work on this when I get the chance and let you know.
CTE/Pro One
I have put in about 60hrs with Pro One and I will never use anything else. The process takes time but once you get use to the repeatable pivots (becomes natural over time) the system is awesome.
It is easy to quit because it isn't a quick fix - but with dedicated time it will pay off. I am still learning but it is getting easier each day for me.
I have a table at home so practice time is readily available once the little guy hits the hay.
I have put in about 60hrs with Pro One and I will never use anything else. The process takes time but once you get use to the repeatable pivots (becomes natural over time) the system is awesome.
It is easy to quit because it isn't a quick fix - but with dedicated time it will pay off. I am still learning but it is getting easier each day for me.
I have a table at home so practice time is readily available once the little guy hits the hay.
Nba & cte
Hi Steve,
Tom doesn't actually teach CTE - he teaches quarters, Kebob and Grail. The systems may be based off of similar learnings from Hal but are quite different. Unless he changed his program since last November.
Cheers,
Gerry
Hi Steve,
Tom doesn't actually teach CTE - he teaches quarters, Kebob and Grail. The systems may be based off of similar learnings from Hal but are quite different. Unless he changed his program since last November.
Cheers,
Gerry
I just answered a few of these questions via email for some other members.
The DVD can be a bit confusing in parts, I had the same experience. There is a ton of information, and it's not always presented in a linear fashion, but for those of us here that were part of the HUGE aiming threads last year, we were able get information from Stan and others to fill in the gaps quite nicely. Just to reiterate that again, Stan was more than willing to help anyone who bought the DVD, both here on the forums and via phone/email, so definitely take advantage of that if he offered.
Two major things got me, and I think others as well:
1) Where to point my cue, line up, etc. There is no one specific "point", that's the issue. First you visualize the lines appropriate for the cut - A, B, C, etc. - and the CTE line. If you can see those lines, once you have them locked in you just move toward the object ball along that path. It won't be at a specific point. Think of it as you are dialing in a path by perceiving two lines, and once you have that strong perception you move forward. Manual, 1/2 tip offset to the appropriate side and pivot to center, or perform a Pro1 pivot to center
2) When to use which lines and pivot. This is the information that is not presented 100% linearly, and there is no reference information as the progression of aim. That has been discussed here at length, though. There is a progression, may vary slightly based on your perception but in general, for a left cut, you would do something like:
0 - 10 degrees - A, outside (right) pivot
10 - 28 degrees - A, inside (left) pivot
28, 29 degrees - B, outside (right) pivot (the "non-obvious" pivot)
30 - 49 degrees - B, inside (left) pivot
50 - ??? degrees - C, inside (left) pivot
??? - ??? degrees - 1/8 to 1/8, inside (left) pivot
I have question marks on these because in the original material there was no C alignment, it went straight to 1/8. Since I haven't played with that, I don't know the angle breakdowns, but the progression is correct. Other than straight and nearly straight shots, the pivot is the same as the cut angle except for those rare in between shots, and experience will tell you on those that you need to line up slightly thinner/thicker to make the shot cleanly.
Hope that might help anyone who is struggling. I do think it's a great system, I know it helped me increase my ball pocketing percentage, especially on tougher shots, and recalibrate myself back to center ball after a layoff and learn to appreciate using the natural cue ball path instead of spinning everywhere all the time.
Scott
The DVD can be a bit confusing in parts, I had the same experience. There is a ton of information, and it's not always presented in a linear fashion, but for those of us here that were part of the HUGE aiming threads last year, we were able get information from Stan and others to fill in the gaps quite nicely. Just to reiterate that again, Stan was more than willing to help anyone who bought the DVD, both here on the forums and via phone/email, so definitely take advantage of that if he offered.
Two major things got me, and I think others as well:
1) Where to point my cue, line up, etc. There is no one specific "point", that's the issue. First you visualize the lines appropriate for the cut - A, B, C, etc. - and the CTE line. If you can see those lines, once you have them locked in you just move toward the object ball along that path. It won't be at a specific point. Think of it as you are dialing in a path by perceiving two lines, and once you have that strong perception you move forward. Manual, 1/2 tip offset to the appropriate side and pivot to center, or perform a Pro1 pivot to center
2) When to use which lines and pivot. This is the information that is not presented 100% linearly, and there is no reference information as the progression of aim. That has been discussed here at length, though. There is a progression, may vary slightly based on your perception but in general, for a left cut, you would do something like:
0 - 10 degrees - A, outside (right) pivot
10 - 28 degrees - A, inside (left) pivot
28, 29 degrees - B, outside (right) pivot (the "non-obvious" pivot)
30 - 49 degrees - B, inside (left) pivot
50 - ??? degrees - C, inside (left) pivot
??? - ??? degrees - 1/8 to 1/8, inside (left) pivot
I have question marks on these because in the original material there was no C alignment, it went straight to 1/8. Since I haven't played with that, I don't know the angle breakdowns, but the progression is correct. Other than straight and nearly straight shots, the pivot is the same as the cut angle except for those rare in between shots, and experience will tell you on those that you need to line up slightly thinner/thicker to make the shot cleanly.
Hope that might help anyone who is struggling. I do think it's a great system, I know it helped me increase my ball pocketing percentage, especially on tougher shots, and recalibrate myself back to center ball after a layoff and learn to appreciate using the natural cue ball path instead of spinning everywhere all the time.
Scott
Scott,
I have only 'toyed' with CTE & was a bit amazed at the dead on accuracy but...then got confused by the complete misses that I assumed I was not executing properly & have not been able to correctly figure it out.
Here's my problem & I guees lack of understanding. I do not have a built in exact angle analyzer. So, if the angle is very near 28* which pivot do I use inside left or outside right, or do I flip a coin. I'm not meaning to be a detractor but that seems to be the problem, at least for me, & I would guess others.
On those transition angles, if you choose incorrectly, you mis & that is where the system seeems to fail a bit. I'll take all of the other success for an occassional possible mis but is there a way to eliminate or reduce that. Can you consistantly choose one over the other & maybe apply a bit of a certain english to help 'assure' success?
A tweak so to speak,
Last edited:
offered help
if you are anywhere near texas, i would be happy to help. I use it exclusively, and believe in it very strongly. However, i think it will not be helpful to a beginning player, only one that is capable of a 20 ball run in straight pool.
if you are anywhere near texas, i would be happy to help. I use it exclusively, and believe in it very strongly. However, i think it will not be helpful to a beginning player, only one that is capable of a 20 ball run in straight pool.
From my use of it, and systems like SEE as well, those transition areas are indeed a source of misses. You have to pick the right alignment/pivot to go with the shot angle, and as you most people would not be able to accurately judge the angle down to that degree of precision.
Luckily, those transition shots occur infrequently, with some practice most shots become clear that they are A or B, category 1 or 2, etc. My only advice on the transitions, as well as just determining the angles in general, is that it comes with practice. That's where your "feel", "experience", whatever you want to call it comes into play. You will sense by looking that the shot doesn't look right.
That has been the biggest benefit for me in using the systems. Through the success I had with pocketing balls, I was able to calibrate my eyes on certain shots that I had occasionally not been able to see correctly, and as I gained experience with the system I began to trust my eyes once down on the shot and would know if I picked the wrong alignment, performed a poor pivot, or was on one of those transitional angles. It just wouldn't look right. Now everything looks so correct that my perception of the initial alignment and stepping into the ball is getting more and more automatic and subconscious, and I take more than a second or two only to line up the most difficult or critical shots.
Not sure what other system users do, but that's been my experience.
Scott
Last edited:
Thanks Scott.
I appreciate your insight. If it does not look right, I'll pivot the other way & see how that looks.
Thanks again,
Yoda, thanks for your offer. Unfortunately, I'm 125 miles north of Boston.
I am getting a lot of info from these posts. I stick with it and hopefully the light will go on.
Thanks again, this is what is great about this forum. People are willing to help
Gerry,
Yes, you are exactly correct. It is Grail that I was speaking about. I do consider it to be a center to edge technique, so I was speaking generically for the advice I was providing. But your point of clarification Is well taken, and probably something I should have clarified.
Thank you,
Steve
Yes, you are exactly correct. It is Grail that I was speaking about. I do consider it to be a center to edge technique, so I was speaking generically for the advice I was providing. But your point of clarification Is well taken, and probably something I should have clarified.
Thank you,
Steve
How does this system work off the rail shooting long shots YODA?
I was shown my one of my road partners a center to edge system back in the late 80s, but I use the center OR edge of the object ball and aim a SPECIFIC part of the cue ball.
From my experience when shooting long shots expecially it's easier to see a quarter (specific part) of the cue ball than a quarter of the object ball. I'm just connecting to the CENTER or EDGE of the object ball and just simply hitting less of the cue ball to create more angle as needed.
CREATING angles is what I must think in terms of. To me pool is a creative game that puts an emphasis on Feel and Touch rather than the visual (seeing) aspects so much. When I'm playing my best I have the sensation of "Feeling the Angles" with my eyes, and I've heard similar statements.
Mike Lebron always impressed me (shotmaking esp. long and cut shots), when he won the US OPEN at age 53 and hit everything with a low, "stunning" cue ball. His accuracy and shotmaking was as good as I've ever seen and he told me he just looked at the center or edge of the ball.
How does this system work off the rail shooting long shots YODA?
I was shown my one of my road partners a center to edge system back in the late 80s, but I use the center OR edge of the object ball and aim a SPECIFIC part of the cue ball.
From my experience when shooting long shots expecially it's easier to see a quarter (specific part) of the cue ball than a quarter of the object ball. I'm just connecting to the CENTER or EDGE of the object ball and just simply hitting less of the cue ball to create more angle as needed.
CREATING angles is what I must think in terms of. To me pool is a creative game that puts an emphasis on Feel and Touch rather than the visual (seeing) aspects so much. When I'm playing my best I have the sensation of "Feeling the Angles" with my eyes, and I've heard similar statements.
Mike Lebron always impressed me (shotmaking esp. long and cut shots), when he won the US OPEN at age 53 and hit everything with a low, "stunning" cue ball. His accuracy and shotmaking was as good as I've ever seen and he told me he just looked at the center or edge of the ball.
How does this system work off the rail shooting long shots YODA?
CJ, could you expand a little on what you mean by hitting less of the cue ball? Are you hitting center cue ball after lining up or are you actually hitting off center? What about speed on long shots. Do you hit harder to overcome the throw issue on long shots.
I tend to use the front of the OB and CB when lining up shots. It's hard to explain but I'll try. When in my preshot, I look at the front of the OB to the pocket. I then take the equal spot on the CB and line it up with the opposite point on the OB. When looking at the OB, if the front point is for instance 10:00 on a clock then I line up 10:00 on the CB with 2:00 on the OB. I then step into the shot with these points lined up. Does this make sense and do you see any plus or minus problems with this way of sighting? I've had a lot of success recently but still suffer from bad habits of twisting the stroke and standing up. However when I am in stroke this seems to work for me.
I guess I am just trying to line up the opposites on the CB and OB. Trying to pick a spot on the back of the OB can be a little difficult, that's why I've been using the clock face.
I'd appreciate any and all comments. Thanks CJ
CJ,
Your analysis is right on. For me at least, I always had a hard time picking up the 1/4 point on the object ball with distance, say more than 6 diamonds away. The ball is visually smaller at that distance, and so small differences in perception can make the difference between making and missing the shot. The system does work, you just have to be able to sight that much more accurately.
I like the SEE system approach for these. I'm able to look at one line and at a more discrete point (shadow of the cue ball to center or edge of the object ball), for me at least just easier to "see" and therefore more accurate. But as I said, either approach works.
One issue with SEE off the rail is that the shadow of the cueball is hidden. What I do at least is to step forward slightly to pick up the shadow, then keep that point in mind as I step back and perform the normal alignment. It works pretty well since the point is close and easy to keep in your vision. If the balls are close enough, within half a table, I'll just resort back to Pro1 aiming so I don't need to worry about picking up the shadow.
Scott
Your analysis is right on. For me at least, I always had a hard time picking up the 1/4 point on the object ball with distance, say more than 6 diamonds away. The ball is visually smaller at that distance, and so small differences in perception can make the difference between making and missing the shot. The system does work, you just have to be able to sight that much more accurately.
I like the SEE system approach for these. I'm able to look at one line and at a more discrete point (shadow of the cue ball to center or edge of the object ball), for me at least just easier to "see" and therefore more accurate. But as I said, either approach works.
One issue with SEE off the rail is that the shadow of the cueball is hidden. What I do at least is to step forward slightly to pick up the shadow, then keep that point in mind as I step back and perform the normal alignment. It works pretty well since the point is close and easy to keep in your vision. If the balls are close enough, within half a table, I'll just resort back to Pro1 aiming so I don't need to worry about picking up the shadow.
Scott