Cue ball and Object ball travel.

T

tonythetiger583

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've pegged my stroke down to about 12 speeds which I've measured in terms of diamonds traveled (I know it depends on the speed of the table, but it at least gets me into the right ball park).

Is there a simple system to determine how far the cue ball will travel versus the object ball, depending on fullness of hit?

At the moment I've divided the object ball into 1 to 100% on each side, and kind of estimate from there.

Is there any simple and accurate way short of pulling out a calculator for each shot for me to figure out how far I want the object ball and cue ball to go? Even just giving a formula would be nice, since I'm not to sure on it, even with a calculator (terrible at math).

please and thanks.

Edit: Also how does draw and follow factor into all this.
And my speeds are:
Soft: 7 Diamonds, 9 diamonds, 11, 13,
Medium: 15,17,19,21
Hard: 23,25,27,29
 
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I'd put the calcalutor away and just practice the different shots until you get a feel for how hard you need to hit to get the position you want. There are an infinite number of angles and an infinite number of speeds, and how far the cue ball goes also depends on things like the speed of the cloth and rails, whether the cue ball is sliding, rolling, or spinning backwards at contact, and if you are hitting a cushion, what kind of sidespin is on the cue ball.

Your subconscious is a lot more powerful than a calculator, and can calculate all those variables accurately and instantly if you train it properly.
 
tonythetiger583 said:
I've pegged my stroke down to about 12 speeds which I've measured in terms of diamonds traveled (I know it depends on the speed of the table, but it at least gets me into the right ball park).

Is there a simple system to determine how far the cue ball will travel versus the object ball, depending on fullness of hit?

At the moment I've divided the object ball into 1 to 100% on each side, and kind of estimate from there.


Is there any simple and accurate way short of pulling out a calculator for each shot for me to figure out how far I want the object ball and cue ball to go? Even just giving a formula would be nice, since I'm not to sure on it, even with a calculator (terrible at math).

please and thanks.


Edit: Also how does draw and follow factor into all this.
And my speeds are:
Soft: 7 Diamonds, 9 diamonds, 11, 13,
Medium: 15,17,19,21
Hard: 23,25,27,29
Click to expand...

What the hell are you talking about? The object ball should travel in to a pocket and the cueball should play position on the next ball.

It's very simple really, why complicate it?

ONB
 
If I remember correctly, Dr. Dave has some videos about this subject. I can't remember the link to his website now though.
 
victorl said:
I'd put the calcalutor away and just practice the different shots until you get a feel for how hard you need to hit to get the position you want. There are an infinite number of angles and an infinite number of speeds, and how far the cue ball goes also depends on things like the speed of the cloth and rails, whether the cue ball is sliding, rolling, or spinning backwards at contact, and if you are hitting a cushion, what kind of sidespin is on the cue ball.

Your subconscious is a lot more powerful than a calculator, and can calculate all those variables accurately and instantly if you train it properly.
Click to expand...

I find the problem is that I'm fairly new to pool, and I agree that in time, I will subconsciously know all the shots, but at the moment if I let my subconcious take over, I will be way off. And I can practice and practice that shot, but there's an infinite amount of shots like you said, and I wouldn't mind the middle ground at least being (Oh, I recognize this shot, it's at roughly a speed 1 or 3 or 6.
 
I understand, but there are just so many different shots that it would be impossible to remember all the speed numbers, and changing the cut angle just a few degrees completely changes where the balls end up and how far they go... If you have an experienced player by your side to analyze the shots and tell you how hard to hit them, that might work... but honestly trying to figuring out shot speed just through calculations instead of playing experience is kind of counter-productive in that you are spending time and energy on calculations when you could be using that effort to develop a feel for the shots. (Just my opinion, though)

Dr. Dave's site (http://billiards.colostate.edu) has lots of resources, and this article in particular might be of interest to you.
http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2009/march09.pdf

Good luck, and I hope you find something that works for you.
 
My instructor has a whole system for knowing exactly what angles will send the cue ball a certain distance. I haven't had it explained to me in detail yet but it sounds a little complicated. I can ask about it during my next lesson and get back to you. He has a system for everything.
 
When you start thinking about speed control in such a structured manner its a recipe for disaster. If you have taken the time to develop a stroke that makes the cue ball travel x number of diamonds then you are capable of just getting down and making the cue ball go pretty close to where you want. When standing you should be thinking about position, how hard the shot needs to be hit. This goes for safety play also. Then when you are down don't think about it. Your brain is smart, and even though you may not have played for years it will calculate the required stroke if your brain has given you the correct information.

Now, that being said I would assume...

For a 1/2 ball hit shooting with stun - 50% of the energy will be transferred to the object ball and the cue ball will keep the other 50%.

If there were no rails on a table and just an infinite playing surface and you hit the shot at a speed that would travel 10 diamonds without contacting a ball, then a half ball hit would make the OB travel a distance of 5 diamonds from impact, and the CB (if it had stun) travel 5 diamonds also. All this is with the CB and OB very close to each other to start with. The further the distance between the two the more energy the CB loses so it becomes quite difficult to work out what % of energy the CB will have upon contact. This is why like I say, there are some systems for this I'm sure. But its best to just get down and play. Eventually everyone's speed control improves.
 
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Pidge said:
When standing you should be thinking about position, how hard the shot needs to be hit. This goes for safety play also. Then when you are down don't think about it. Your brain is smart, and even though you may not have played for years it will calculate the required stroke if your brain has given you the correct information.
Click to expand...

This is pretty much the best advice I think you can give when it comes to playing cue sports. Do all of your calculations before you get down on the shot. Once you're down you already know what you're going to do, so focus 100% on making the ball.

I see more balls missed by people thinking about the resulting path of the cue ball as they strike it than by anything else.
 
Just play...

Well,
you should buy this accessory and put it on your cue stick...



Just kidding a bit... no harm! :joyful:

If you want to, I can send you a lot of drills for position and shotmaking...
 
Just play and stop looking for shortcuts to experience. Correct position play will come in time as you hit more balls. Wait for that 10,000 hour practiced mark and you will not even be thinking about using a system- it's too much work and if you are playing in a tournament all day you will tire yourself out mentally.
 
Play a lot and watch a lot of pool. You get a sense for how much of its speed the CB will retain after cutting a ball at a certain angle with forward roll, stun, slight draw, etc. A formula could be derived, but it wouldn't help, even as a stop-gap until you have more experience to draw from.

Visualize the CB's travel before each shot, play the shot, and watch the results. Over time your subconscious will get more and more accurate at the visualization step based on each trial and error. It's not just the best way; it's the only (effective) way.

-Andrew
 
tonythetiger583 said:
...
Is there a simple system to determine how far the cue ball will travel versus the object ball, depending on fullness of hit?

...
Click to expand...
Some of the posters above say to just hit a million balls. I think it is slower to learn that way than if you start with a reference framework or a few rules of thumb and hit 100,000 balls. But then I'm the sort of person who likes to understand why things happen and not just observe what happens. I think the understanding will also help you in situations that are new to you. Here are some useful rules of thumb:

1. If you hit a half-ball cut (30 degrees) with a rolling cue ball, the cue ball will go about as far as the object ball.

2. If you play a 45-degree cut (slightly thicker than 1/4 ball) with stun the cue ball will go the same distance as the object ball.

3. For a full follow shot, the cue ball will go about 1/6 as far as the object ball.

4. If you are playing one pocket and an object ball is between the side pockets with a nearly straight long bank to your pocket, a rolling cue ball will leave the cue ball frozen to the far cushion if the object ball just barely gets to your pocket.

5. If you play a full shot with a rolling cue ball, the object ball will go about half as far as the cue ball would have gone if it had not hit the object ball.

All those ideas and more about how pool things work are available for free at: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html
and lots more is available for free (with videos!) at: http://billiards.colostate.edu/

(The distance ratios quoted above are without rail contact. The ball loses about half its speed and 3/4 of its potential distance travel when going straight into a cushion.)
 
I get what you're saying OP.

Dr. Dave has a speed vs. fullness of ball hit video on YouTube and it should help you out.

That aside I'd scrap the idea of calculating position with actual mathematics. Playing more and more until you develop a feel for shots and position is your best bet.

The only time I actually calculate a shot is when I plan to break out a cluster on a 3-railer. I've been practicing these because they're actually fairly simple and they come up alot. Thanks Tor! ;)


Sent from my X501_USA_Cricket using Tapatalk 2
 
Along with everyone else, the more you try to put it into numbers, the longer it will take to get it into your game.

How much pressure and distance should you apply to each leg when taking a stride uphill or downhill, turning left or right, etc.... you will never learn to walk right.

You know that the thinner the cut, the less force is transferred to the object ball, and it isn't a linear graph. As you increase the angle, the transfer result decreases drastically. Just keep that in mind and run some position drills to get used to how much.
 
the speed of the cueball has an inverse relationship to the fullness of your hit, i.e. a fuller hit gives you less movement on the CB and a thinner cut pretty much preserves it all.

If you want to use a calculator for this, google 2D conservation of momentum and read up on it. Essentially, if you label the short rail x and the long rail y, the individual components have to obey the law of conservation of momentum.

Thinking about pool in such a complicated way isn't helpful though, imo understanding the basic concept is sufficient (i.e. a fuller hit produces less cue ball speed and a thinner hit produces more cue ball speed, also relatively the OB moves faster and thus needs less power on a full hit compared to a thin hit because the energy is being transferred). If you want to learn how to control speeds, just use Buddy's method lol. The distance you pull back on your cue when you pull the trigger determines the speed of your shot.
 
tonythetiger583 said:
I've pegged my stroke down to about 12 speeds which I've measured in terms of diamonds traveled (I know it depends on the speed of the table, but it at least gets me into the right ball park).

Is there a simple system to determine how far the cue ball will travel versus the object ball, depending on fullness of hit?

At the moment I've divided the object ball into 1 to 100% on each side, and kind of estimate from there.

Is there any simple and accurate way short of pulling out a calculator for each shot for me to figure out how far I want the object ball and cue ball to go? Even just giving a formula would be nice, since I'm not to sure on it, even with a calculator (terrible at math).

please and thanks.

Edit: Also how does draw and follow factor into all this.
And my speeds are:
Soft: 7 Diamonds, 9 diamonds, 11, 13,
Medium: 15,17,19,21
Hard: 23,25,27,29
Click to expand...

Check all you tube videos for Academy of the Cueing Arts, not bad,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YZB6igi8-I&list=UUOVP4Wmcp20VIQkB0ssPWnw
 
Aten said:
the speed of the cueball has an inverse relationship to the fullness of your hit, i.e. a fuller hit gives you less movement on the CB and a thinner cut pretty much preserves it all.

If you want to use a calculator for this, google 2D conservation of momentum and read up on it. Essentially, if you label the short rail x and the long rail y, the individual components have to obey the law of conservation of momentum.

Thinking about pool in such a complicated way isn't helpful though, imo understanding the basic concept is sufficient (i.e. a fuller hit produces less cue ball speed and a thinner hit produces more cue ball speed, also relatively the OB moves faster and thus needs less power on a full hit compared to a thin hit because the energy is being transferred). If you want to learn how to control speeds, just use Buddy's method lol. The distance you pull back on your cue when you pull the trigger determines the speed of your shot.
Click to expand...


I agree but to state it in a different way. The fuller the cue ball strikes the object ball, the more the energy transfer. The thinner the hit the least amount of transfer, there fore the object ball will travel further. So, on the thin hit, after the cue ball hits the object ball it will still be traveling at nearly the speed you hit it. Like stated earlier, you need to keep this in mind when deciding how and where to hit ball but, it's impossible to calculate. You will develop a feel for it with more practice.
 
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