Cue ball deflection: 1 o'clock vs. 5 o'clock
- Thread starter JoeyA
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JoeyA said:
More swerve at 1:30 might cancel things out.
I guess it depends how hard you're hitting the shot.
Edit- As I understand the difference between swerve and deflection, maybe in the strictest sense of the definition, deflection would be greater at 1:30 than 5:30. The only thing physically possible that can straighten out the shot more on the 1:30 shot than the 5:30 shot is the friction of the ball on the cloth, and I would define that as swerve.
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That is beyound stuff even I think about...
My guess would be that 1:30 english gets to a natural roll faster than 5:30 englsih reducing the amount of time the ball spends traveling "off line" or deflecting...
I would imagine combinations of ball velocity and amount of spin induced would have an effect on the end results.
My guess would be that 1:30 english gets to a natural roll faster than 5:30 englsih reducing the amount of time the ball spends traveling "off line" or deflecting...
I would imagine combinations of ball velocity and amount of spin induced would have an effect on the end results.
JoeyA said:
Whether you hit above or below center you're just about always hitting downward on the CB at least a little (or at least producing "downward squirt"), so with sidespin you always get both squirt and swerve. You get more swerve when you hit downward on the CB above center than when you hit downward on the CB below center. More swerve looks like less squirt. It's actually less squirve.
pj
chgo
JoeyA said:
Deflection (squirt) and swerve that can reduce the effect of squirt are related but two very different things.
Squirt varies with the degree of offset for the vertical center while swerve varies (among other things but primarily) with the degree of cue stick elevation.
Since 1:30 and 5:30 are the same distance from the vertical center, squirt would be the same.
However, since 5:30 requires a more elevated cue...all other things being equal...there will be more swerve which will cause the CB to leave the "squirt line" dictated by the off vertical center hit.
So the END RESULT is that the effect of squirt will be partially or wholly offset by swerve but NOT because swerve is a component of squirt or vice versa...just like aircraft engine-induced thrust and air foil induced lift
are entirely different aerodymic componets but which can expand or reduce the END RESULT of the airplane's altitude.
All IMHO.
Regards,
Jim
Patrick Johnson said:
So you're agreeing that there is less cue ball deflection with 1:30 English than there is with 4:30 English, correct? Similar to the diagram below, correct? For Cuetable new users, there are two pages showing both the high right English and the low right English. You can click on the respective numbers in the lower right portion of the cue table to see both layouts and you can toggle back and forth to see the cue ball's final spot.
JoeyA
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I would think that the 1:30 english gives less deflection (squirt) than the 4:30 english simply because the 1:30 english imparts a bit of downward pressure on the cue ball which creates more friction between the cue ball and the cloth, and possibly even a momentary "trapping" of the cue ball under the tip not allowing it to move sideways. The difference is likely fairly minimal.
I also think the 1:30 english would cause more swerve because it imparts more downward force and lets the english "bite" into the cloth more, closer to what a masse would be than with the 4:30 english. I would not be willing to bet the farm on either though.
I also think the 1:30 english would cause more swerve because it imparts more downward force and lets the english "bite" into the cloth more, closer to what a masse would be than with the 4:30 english. I would not be willing to bet the farm on either though.
Da Poet said:
Let's say this is based upon you hitting both shots with the same amount of speed, a medium speed stroke.
Have you ever read that a high right hit cue ball will deflect a different amount than from a low right hit cue ball, hitting with the same speed and the same aiming line?
JoeyA
Joey,
Here's an article from Dr. Dave that discusses this very point. http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/oct07.pdf.
Summary is that the squirt is the same for both, but swerve differs as one other poster wrote.
Hope this helps, Dave
Here's an article from Dr. Dave that discusses this very point. http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/oct07.pdf.
Summary is that the squirt is the same for both, but swerve differs as one other poster wrote.
Hope this helps, Dave
JoeyA said:
Yes, your diagram is right, but I'd say it differently. I'd say there's less "effective squirt" with high sidespin (because it's reduced more by swerve).
The extreme example of this is when the cueball is frozen to the rail and you hit it with sidespin. You get a surprising amount of swerve that way, often so much that you have to aim as if you're getting "negative squirt" (which, in effect, you are).
pj
chgo
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyA
So you're agreeing that there is less cue ball deflection with 1:30 English than there is with 4:30 English, correct? Similar to the diagram below, correct?
Joey, Patrick and I have had this same dialog before. I am not being argumentative...such descriptions are a matter of personal preference and we end up at the same place regardless of the difference.
But I prefer your above description. Squirt and Swerve result from entirely different physics and I think should be understood and predicted seperately.
Similarly, as you know, you can widen the departure angle and increase CB travel on a draw shot where you impart running english as well as low draw.
But I would not like to refer to that as "effective draw." Rather, I would like to predict the departure angle and CB roll assuming centerline draw and then add running english as necessary to achive the wider angle and greater CB travel.
Again, just another way to think about getting to the same place.
Regards,
Jim
Originally Posted by JoeyA
So you're agreeing that there is less cue ball deflection with 1:30 English than there is with 4:30 English, correct? Similar to the diagram below, correct?
Patrick Johnson said:
Joey, Patrick and I have had this same dialog before. I am not being argumentative...such descriptions are a matter of personal preference and we end up at the same place regardless of the difference.
But I prefer your above description. Squirt and Swerve result from entirely different physics and I think should be understood and predicted seperately.
Similarly, as you know, you can widen the departure angle and increase CB travel on a draw shot where you impart running english as well as low draw.
But I would not like to refer to that as "effective draw." Rather, I would like to predict the departure angle and CB roll assuming centerline draw and then add running english as necessary to achive the wider angle and greater CB travel.
Again, just another way to think about getting to the same place.
Regards,
Jim
JoeyA said:
Something wrong with Mezz cues?
Low left vs. High left.
I'll be darn. I have never read this one or if I did, it didn't stick. Thanks!
I have always been pretty good at using low inside or low outside English. My use of high inside or high outside English is not so good. I practiced for about 30 minutes tonight using a different aiming point of approximately 1/2" at five feet and have had excellent results.
While there may be some who don't care much about the physics of pool and simply play pool by instinct, this is a good example of how some of the physics guys can help your game.
I'm not going to start a poll as to how many people know that low side spin and high side spin require different aiming points on the object ball for it to be pocketed but I am curious. I never knew it and saw it on a cuemaker's website. I must have glossed over it on Dr. Dave's website. Sheesh...... Now I know why I've been missing a lot of balls trying to get three rail shape.
JoeyA
12squared said:
I'll be darn. I have never read this one or if I did, it didn't stick. Thanks!
I have always been pretty good at using low inside or low outside English. My use of high inside or high outside English is not so good. I practiced for about 30 minutes tonight using a different aiming point of approximately 1/2" at five feet and have had excellent results.
While there may be some who don't care much about the physics of pool and simply play pool by instinct, this is a good example of how some of the physics guys can help your game.
I'm not going to start a poll as to how many people know that low side spin and high side spin require different aiming points on the object ball for it to be pocketed but I am curious. I never knew it and saw it on a cuemaker's website. I must have glossed over it on Dr. Dave's website. Sheesh...... Now I know why I've been missing a lot of balls trying to get three rail shape.
JoeyA
bluepepper said:
Jeff, others may be able to answer your question better. It seems to me that it is easier to make a ball with slight draw than it is to make it with slight follow but we're talking about how high side spin and how low side spin require different aiming points and why.
JoeyA