Cue Design Theft?

[classiccues]

because all of them except the maker (southwest) and kersenbrock, the other cue makers took the look from southwest you moron, so of course they are gonna look similar. that's my point idiot. you sure aint the sharp one in the family are ya! what a freakin dummy you are.

Well lets take a SW and put it in a lineup with 4 point traditional cues and see which one is a match? LOL I see in order to make your point you need to load the lineup in your direction. Nice.. thats what I would expect from you.

BTW where is picture of the "exact" cue I had this cue made from again?

Joe

 

[spanky981]

cue design theft

thanks for the revisionist history lesson, but no thanks. try learning the truth before spreading bullshit like this. the design was developed together. nothing was stolen and the cue was designed by the two and there was a business relationship. the southwest design is a compendium. get it? or do i need to use smaller words? heres the exact quote from the bb so you can think about your error - early southwest cues are almost identical to the cues that david and jerry made at kersenbrock cue service- do you understand the quote?

I dont know why you have to be so mean.. If you read in Davids biography in the blue book, not Southwsts, you will read..

"In 1972, David decided to use his knowledge of physics to try to create the perfect pool cue. He experimented with different designs and construction techniques before settling on what he believed was best, and started Kersenbrock cue service that year. Instead of following the trend of stainless steel piloted joints with stainless steel screws, David designed a flat faced phenolic joint with a longer brass 3/8 11 screw. David's joint was thinner and lighter than other cies, which meant that the cue was not as forwrd heavy.. His taper was a parabolic curve from the tip to the butt, making for a very stiff hit, with minimal deflection.. For inlay work, David developed a opticak pantograph, which allows him to artistically freehand his inlays instead of tracing them from a pattern.
In 1976, David made a cue for Jerry Franklin, an accounting student at U.N.L.V, in exchange for repairs to Davids car. Soon(which actually is 6 years later) the two were making cues together based in DAVIDS cuemaking philosophy, which led to southwest cues.. "

In case you couldnt read.. It was Davids engineering and design, not Jerry's.. Jerry learned it from David.. In other words Jerry made cues like David designed and engineered..This means he wasn't the original "artist","designer", of this 3/8 11. 6pt, parabolic taper cue that you say people copy.. David was..

My point is this..

If you are upset about cuemakers stealing designs than you have to know who was thre originator of that design before you act ignorant....

If we want original true art than you have to only recognize the original true artist, designer.. Jerry used Davids design, whether or not David agreed to allow him,which he did.. It doesn't matter .. It was Davids design and he is the original designer..

I want to say, I have no problem buying cues that look like other cuemakers design... They are all different in there own little way.. Any true collector would now the differences and probably be able to identify who made the cue...

Face the facts boys.. This is the USA.. We are a copycat society..from music, to fashion, to art, to the Goerge foreman grill, to the Atkins diet, to Car designs, to the new trend, etc.. and on and on and on.. This is a Capitalistic society.. This is the norm of our culture.. Cry and complain all you want, call people names, which you have the freedom to do, but it aint going to change..

Post after post after post.. It wont change..

Mike

 

[committeemember]

Well lets take a SW and put it in a lineup with 4 point traditional cues and see which one is a match? LOL I see in order to make your point you need to load the lineup in your direction. Nice.. thats what I would expect from you.

BTW where is picture of the "exact" cue I had this cue made from again?

Joe

the cue is umistakably a southwest looking cue. you ordered it that way. you are a scumbag.

 

[Rackin_Zack]

the cue is umistakably a southwest looking cue. you ordered it that way. you are a scumbag.

Just out of curiosity, are you saying that Southwest is the only cue manufacturer who can do a six point hi/lo cue or is it the 6 points with the sectionated butt sleeve that you take issue with? Can either be used independently of each other? Just trying to get a feel for exactly what you have a problem with.

 

[committeemember]

I dont know why you have to be so mean.. If you read in Davids biography in the blue book, not Southwsts, you will read..

"In 1972, David decided to use his knowledge of physics to try to create the perfect pool cue. He experimented with different designs and construction techniques before settling on what he believed was best, and started Kersenbrock cue service that year. Instead of following the trend of stainless steel piloted joints with stainless steel screws, David designed a flat faced phenolic joint with a longer brass 3/8 11 screw. David's joint was thinner and lighter than other cies, which meant that the cue was not as forwrd heavy.. His taper was a parabolic curve from the tip to the butt, making for a very stiff hit, with minimal deflection.. For inlay work, David developed a opticak pantograph, which allows him to artistically freehand his inlays instead of tracing them from a pattern.
In 1976, David made a cue for Jerry Franklin, an accounting student at U.N.L.V, in exchange for repairs to Davids car. Soon(which actually is 6 years later) the two were making cues together based in DAVIDS cuemaking philosophy, which led to southwest cues.. "

In case you couldnt read.. It was Davids engineering and design, not Jerry's.. Jerry learned it from David.. In other words Jerry made cues like David designed and engineered..This means he wasn't the original "artist","designer", of this 3/8 11. 6pt, parabolic taper cue that you say people copy.. David was..

My point is this..

If you are upset about cuemakers stealing designs than you have to know who was thre originator of that design before you act ignorant....

If we want original true art than you have to only recognize the original true artist, designer.. Jerry used Davids design, whether or not David agreed to allow him,which he did.. It doesn't matter .. It was Davids design and he is the original designer..

I want to say, I have no problem buying cues that look like other cuemakers design... They are all different in there own little way.. Any true collector would now the differences and probably be able to identify who made the cue...

Face the facts boys.. This is the USA.. We are a copycat society..from music, to fashion, to art, to the Goerge foreman grill, to the Atkins diet, to Car designs, to the new trend, etc.. and on and on and on.. This is a Capitalistic society.. This is the norm of our culture.. Cry and complain all you want, call people names, which you have the freedom to do, but it aint going to change..

Post after post after post.. It wont change..

Mike

im mean because its my nature, sorry bout that. david and jerry were in business together. nobody stole nothing. this is so far from the point that asshole people today are ordering cues to look like other cue makers cues- balabuyshkas, zambotis, southwests, ginas, and others. those assholes who order these cues should quit, and the asshole cue makers who make them should also quit. nothin good comes from makin fakes or copies. only hurts the people in the end who get screwed buyin them 50 years later when noone knows the differences.

 

[committeemember]

Just out of curiosity, are you saying that Southwest is the only cue manufacturer who can do a six point hi/lo cue or is it the 6 points with the sectionated butt sleeve that you take issue with? Can either be used independently of each other? Just trying to get a feel for exactly what you have a problem with.

southwest and berton spain both made 6 pointers and neither will ever be mistaken for each others work. how is that possible? it aint just about the points its about how they are proportioned and layed out and the color combinations of woods and the proportions of the butt end of the cue with the wrap and length of points and the proportions of the butt and the butt cap and a million other things. put enough of those together of someone elses work and you have a cue that looks like another guys work. got it? jsut ask yourself if youd ever mistake a spain for a southwest and when you answer why not you will understand what the differences are and what makes each cue look like itself. nobodyd ever accuse southwest of lookin like a spain cue because there are 6 points would they? if not, whys it possible that we can accuse other cue makers of makin southwests? cause they are! and its wrong. the same way its wrong to copy balabushka and zamboti.

 

[Jon]

Could you show me a Spain 6-pointer???
I've never heard of one.
I always thought he did 4-pointers and 8-pointers?

Thanks,

Jon

 

[spanky981]

cue design theft

im mean because its my nature, sorry bout that. david and jerry were in business together. nobody stole nothing. this is so far from the point that asshole people today are ordering cues to look like other cue makers cues- balabuyshkas, zambotis, southwests, ginas, and others. those assholes who order these cues should quit, and the asshole cue makers who make them should also quit. nothin good comes from makin fakes or copies. only hurts the people in the end who get screwed buyin them 50 years later when noone knows the differences.

I again restate.. We live in a copy cat society, whether right or wrong, That is our culture.. It aint going to change.. Live with it.. Our norm is that it is OK.. Sorry..

 

[Rackin_Zack]

southwest and berton spain both made 6 pointers and neither will ever be mistaken for each others work. how is that possible? it aint just about the points its about how they are proportioned and layed out and the color combinations of woods and the proportions of the butt end of the cue with the wrap and length of points and the proportions of the butt and the butt cap and a million other things. put enough of those together of someone elses work and you have a cue that looks like another guys work. got it? jsut ask yourself if youd ever mistake a spain for a southwest and when you answer why not you will understand what the differences are and what makes each cue look like itself. nobodyd ever accuse southwest of lookin like a spain cue because there are 6 points would they? if not, whys it possible that we can accuse other cue makers of makin southwests? cause they are! and its wrong. the same way its wrong to copy balabushka and zamboti.

I respect everyone's opinion on this topic but I think that, just like you said there are many differences between Spain 6ers and DPK/Southwest 6ers, there are also the same kind of differences in Skip's work. Look at the points and the hardwood veneers and you will be able to tell it's Skip's work in an instant! I'm sure you will think I'm a scumbag as well but here is an example of a cue I had Skip make for me, although it's a DPK/SW inspired design, I'm pretty damn sure there's not another one, from SW/DPK at least, like it!

 

[timbo.hobo]

Man Zack, I'm stunned everytime I see that Skip cue of yours, looks AWESOME!!!

Tim.

 

[committeemember]

I respect everyone's opinion on this topic but I think that, just like you said there are many differences between Spain 6ers and DPK/Southwest 6ers, there are also the same kind of differences in Skip's work. Look at the points and the hardwood veneers and you will be able to tell it's Skip's work in an instant! I'm sure you will think I'm a scumbag as well but here is an example of a cue I had Skip make for me, although it's a DPK/SW inspired design, I'm pretty damn sure there's not another one, from SW/DPK at least, like it!

lemme start by saying that it is an awesome cue and quite beautiful. as you predicted though i think you are a scumbag for asking to have the cue look like the southwest style. heres my stupid question for the day instead of knocking off southwest for a design why dont you ask the cue maker to come up with something that is his own trademark look. dont you understand that you are discrediting this cue maker askin him to make some other lookin shit? cant ya have him do somethin original instead. i mean jesus christ if you want a freakin southwest so bad why doncha just buy one? if it was me i would say hey man it'll look to much like a southwest lets come up with somethin original for the butt. so what yur sayin is that you aint got no artistic abilities and you think the cue maker is stupid as well not thinkin he can come up with somethin. but it is a nice lookin cue, to bad it'll always be thought of as someones cue that looks like a southwest instead of somethin that is unmistakably this guys work.

 

[larrynj1]

who is committeemember for real and why is he skeered to use his own name?

 

[Rackin_Zack]

lemme start by saying that it is an awesome cue and quite beautiful. as you predicted though i think you are a scumbag for asking to have the cue look like the southwest style. heres my stupid question for the day instead of knocking off southwest for a design why dont you ask the cue maker to come up with something that is his own trademark look. dont you understand that you are discrediting this cue maker askin him to make some other lookin shit? cant ya have him do somethin original instead. i mean jesus christ if you want a freakin southwest so bad why doncha just buy one? if it was me i would say hey man it'll look to much like a southwest lets come up with somethin original for the butt. so what yur sayin is that you aint got no artistic abilities and you think the cue maker is stupid as well not thinkin he can come up with somethin. but it is a nice lookin cue, to bad it'll always be thought of as someones cue that looks like a southwest instead of somethin that is unmistakably this guys work.

Well, my reasons were that this is the cue that I wanted and since I've never seen a burl SW, I didn't think they would do it and also the fact that I really like Skips work is the other reason. In hindsight I think that I should have probably done something different with the butt sleeve but what's done is done! I do have to say, however, that I'm not 100% sure where I stand on the whole design copying issue. I like traditional style cues and there's not a lot that you can do with this style of cue that hasn't been done before, be it a 6 or 4 pointer. I mean here's my other Skip:

It's got 4 "veneered" points, tiffany ivory diamonds, wood joint rings and a hoppe ring. These were all pioneered by someone but I would venture a guess that nearly all cuemakers who make 4 point vee point cues have made a cue with one or more of these features in them. Like Joe has asked, what is the % of a design that it is okay to copy?! Is it wrong for all of the people who have made 4 point veneered cues to have copied off of the first person who came up with the design? What about different types/shapes of inlays? Is it wrong for someone to have, like the above, tiffany diamond inlays because it's copying off of whom ever was the first to do it?

My goal is to have a cue designed by myself in conjunction with the cuemaker of all of the makers whose work I admire and as I have said on another thread I certainly wouldn't like it if there were a lot of copies of them running around. Thus is the conflictedness of my current state. I will definitely have Skip make me another cue in the future and it will be an original design that Skip and I come up with but I guess that's probably beside the point. I do, however, enjoy this type of discussion and think it's good to get it out in the open for people to think about. I know when I first ordered the cue I never even thought to question the integrity of my request. I have no idea which side of the debate I'll eventually land on, but I've never been an extremist so it'll probably be somewhere in the middle...lol.

 

[JimBo]

Southwests are copies of Kersernbrocks.. It was Davids design that Jerry copied.. Look in the blue book under Davids biography..

Barry Szambotis are copies of Gus Szambotis..It was his dad who was the original artist not him..

Maybe you could use a reading lesson, but they were not copies of DPK cues and you can read the blue book as many times as you'd like and it will never say they are. I am sure now that you will go read it again and "quote" the part (LIE) where it says what you just wrote.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

In case you couldnt read.. It was Davids engineering and design, not Jerry's.. Jerry learned it from David.. In other words Jerry made cues like David designed and engineered..This means he wasn't the original "artist","designer", of this 3/8 11. 6pt, parabolic taper cue that you say people copy.. David was..


Post after post after post.. It wont change..

Mike

LOL you added the part about 6 points LOL, You can join Joe as one more person who has no clue what is meant when talking about a cue design, everything you just typed was about the construction. Not one thing was about the artistic design except the part about the freehand inlays and that's something DPK still does and SW has never done. The majority of early SW cues that DPK did (if not all) didn't have points. In any event Southwest cues has never been Jerry Franklin cues and for that reason Jerry didn't steal from David and Mike and AL haven't stole from Jerry. You were wrong, what you said was wrong and no amount of spin doctoring will change it.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

I again restate.. We live in a copy cat society, whether right or wrong, That is our culture.. It aint going to change.. Live with it.. Our norm is that it is OK.. Sorry..

We also live in a society where people kill each other every day, should accept it? Nobody is claiming this little topic we are debating will change the world, but your opinion that it happens everywhere so it's ok is bullshit. I think that someone with your attitude should just skip this thread and go read something else, the fact that things might never change is never a reason not to speak out against something you feel is wrong. I would bet you that more people are killed each year in our country then cue designs are stolen, maybe the courts and the cops should just get over it (live with it as you say).

Jim

 

[JimBo]

I do have to say, however, that I'm not 100% sure where I stand on the whole design copying issue.

What's your opinion on the cues in question the Ginacue designed Phillippis??

I like traditional style cues and there's not a lot that you can do with this style of cue that hasn't been done before, be it a 6 or 4 pointer.

I'm not sure I agree 100% but of course the simpler the cue the less deviation.

It's got 4 "veneered" points, tiffany ivory diamonds, wood joint rings and a hoppe ring.

All things I think have been done a million times and probably not considered stealing by now, but this isn't to say it isn't. It's my opinion that the line gets blurred when it's been done over and over and again the simpler the design the less room to move. I can see the SW line being blurred every day.

Like Joe has asked, what is the % of a design that it is okay to copy?!

I agreed with this point, something Joe is unwilling to do, I'm not to proud to listen to debate and try to hear both sides of the issue and I love that I am getting feedback. People like Joe have to much to lose to ever give ground and the stubbornness turns into ignorance. He has to much pride to expand his mind and try to hear another point of view, he's too busy pretending to be some expert that he wants people to believe he knows it all when in fact all he's doing is protecting someone else who is a major offender when it comes to this issue. I've never said I am 100% right, all I do is give my opinion and listen to others, I believe there are gray areas but where to draw the line I have no good guidelines. I do know that the cues in questioned crossed the line long ago and I know for a fact Joe agrees, yet his pride and allegiance will never let him give ground in a public forum.

Is it wrong for all of the people who have made 4 point veneered cues to have copied off of the first person who came up with the design?

No because the 4 point design was not something that was just used in pool cues, it was something done in wood working that was carried over into this application. Also we are talking different times, back in the early days they didn't have the computers and machinery to make unique works of art and create things that have never been done.

What about different types/shapes of inlays?

Again different times, back then there was one diamond, it was made for Guitars and carried over to cues, everyone bought them, they didn't make them. Since that day there have been thousands of diamonds created and many made just for cues by cue makers.

Is it wrong for someone to have, like the above, tiffany diamond inlays because it's copying off of whom ever was the first to do it?

Again I believe in gray areas, the fact that 4 point cues should have 4 inlays for balance opens the door to a gray area IMO, but we aren't talking basic cues, we are talking about complex designs that aren't basic and were copied right down to the exact colors in the rainbows, it's clear to see to anyone who isn't trying to make a buck on these cues or make excuses for someone trying to make a buck on this practice.



My goal is to have a cue designed by myself in conjunction with the cuemaker of all of the makers whose work I admire and as I have said on another thread I certainly wouldn't like it if there were a lot of copies of them running around.

Well then I think you are now crossing some hypocritical line, you wanted to copy the SW look but yet you don't want someone else to do it?? Seems like you do agree but just can't figure out how much you agree. Your design was a simple theft (LOL) now thing about a more complex design that took more time and thought. I know it's tough to think about something that you don't have first hand knowledge of, but those Ginacue designs took many many hours of work, they weren't just Ernie walking into a pool room and seeing something he liked that was already created.

I do, however, enjoy this type of discussion and think it's good to get it out in the open for people to think about. I know when I first ordered the cue I never even thought to question the integrity of my request. I have no idea which side of the debate I'll eventually land on, but I've never been an extremist so it'll probably be somewhere in the middle...lol.

I agree that the debate is good and no matter how many times people try to label me as some nazi or hard liner I will continue to point out that I am open to certain gray areas and want to hear opinions from all sides. I never thought I would change the world, there are too many people out there with money and too many broke cuemakers to think that integrity will ever prevail, but if the next time someone thinks about this issue and makes a few changes I think it'll be better for the cue world. I believe as long as copies are an excepted practice it cuts into the creativity of the cuemaker and cuts down the growth of new designs. I want to see new and exciting cues pop up, the same ole same ole is nice but in the words of someone I respect "it's been done"

Jim

 

[buddha162]

the cue is umistakably a southwest looking cue. you ordered it that way. you are a scumbag.

Reading through a bunch of committeemember's posts, I sat down to compose an elaborate, rational reply; then I thought to myself, Why am I responding to this douche bag?

And so I stopped. Deleted everything I wrote (some good stuff too), and suggest you guys do the same. He jumped on this board midstream to a heated discussion, made one post bashing both parties and since concentrated on discrediting one side. Jmo but something smells like sushi around here.

-Roger

 

[classiccues]

Jimbo writes:
>>Like Joe has asked, what is the % of a design that it is okay to copy?! <<

I agreed with this point, something Joe is unwilling to do, I'm not to proud to listen to debate and try to hear both sides of the issue and I love that I am getting feedback. People like Joe have to much to lose to ever give ground and the stubbornness turns into ignorance. He has to much pride to expand his mind and try to hear another point of view, he's too busy pretending to be some expert that he wants people to believe he knows it all when in fact all he's doing is protecting someone else who is a major offender when it comes to this issue. I've never said I am 100% right, all I do is give my opinion and listen to others, I believe there are gray areas but where to draw the line I have no good guidelines. I do know that the cues in questioned crossed the line long ago and I know for a fact Joe agrees, yet his pride and allegiance will never let him give ground in a public forum. <<

You agreed with what point? I am asking you flat out, what % of a design copy do you call theft? I have nothing to lose and its not about pride. I have no problem with cue design copying as long as its not intended to be sold as an original. Something I have said from the start. I don't agree, so don't put words in my mouth. The fact that has come up is you do not apply the same standards across the board, you won't answer the amount of cue design theft because once you do, you will have to criticize people you don't want to for whatever reason. BTW the rainbows in the phillippi appear to be black, red, orange, red and black which BTW are not Gina's colors. So stop saying these cues are copies when in fact they aren't. They are at best Gina inspired and all the lying you do to make them the same won't make them that way. You didn't post identical cues, stop trying to make yourself out as the design detective, since you botched this case along time ago.

Joe

 

[classiccues]

the cue is umistakably a southwest looking cue. you ordered it that way. you are a scumbag.

Oh now its a SW looking cue? Before it was an exact copy..

BTW where are the pics of the "exact cue"...

Joe