Cue pivot SOTW alternative?

L

lobstertex

New member
Saw this the other day:

The idea is you use the butt end of your stick as a stand-in for the spot-on-the-wall, pivoting the tip towards your cue ball after establishing a reference line.

It feels like it should work with a wide range of shots but the poster hasn't really explained how it would work when the object ball isn't in line with the pocket. I would think you'd have to adjust the reference line in some way or another but i'm not sure how.

Don't have a table of my own to really put the time into exploring it. wondered if anyone else had thoughts.
 
lobstertex said:
The idea is you use the butt end of your stick as a stand-in for the spot-on-the-wall, pivoting the tip towards your cue ball after establishing a reference line.
Click to expand...
Yes, instead of locating the spot on the wall from the shooting side, he is establishing the (reference) shot line from the *point of view* of the spot itself, and then pivoting, which swings the line to the cue ball. This is probably a bit more accurate than finding the spot by using 'experience imagination'--in my case, I sometime visualize the line from (say) the side pocket, through the middle diamond, that intersects with a line through the short-rail diamonds; essentially, looking at a triangulated point.

lobstertex said:
It feels like it should work with a wide range of shots but the poster hasn't really explained how it would work when the object ball isn't in line with the pocket. I would think you'd have to adjust the reference line in some way or another but i'm not sure how.
Click to expand...
The last shot, with the 4 ball, shows how to adjust when the ball is not in line with the pocket, but it also referenced via the cushion, so the opposite, mirrored location is used. He aligns to the mirror-ball from the wall-spot, then pivots to the cue ball.

In a case where the target ball is away from the cushion(s), the spot location would need to be shifted--requiring visual/spacial relation ability. A "ghost cushion" could be imagined next to the ball, and then a "ghost spot" located for it, which then is used to align to the (source direction) pocket, and then shifted to the cue ball. That's wordy, but it's just following the same steps as the video, but with an imaginary cushion, with which the spot is determined--which of course is really the same as the mirrored, target pocket....And now that I've typed that, I would summarize it as using the mirror system, but using the POV of the 'spot-on-the-wall'!
 
I take a little of it back. The method is useful for kicks off the side rails. I don't think he has the length quite right. His method should put the bumper of his cue at the rolling-ball mirror image of the pocket. As a check, the bumper needs to be in line with the end rail. He doesn't check that, and the bumper will be less and less in line as the balls move away from the end rail.

His method of the end-rail kicks is off because the bumper is no where near in-line with the side rails, and the ball will go short for the shots he demonstrated. I guess you could argue they won't be off by much, but I don't like systems with built-in errors. In a lot of rooms, you can't get the bumper to the correct position because of walls and tables. I'm not sure, but maybe the long-way kick could be fixed by rotating half way and then parallel shifting.

The basic idea (corrected): Put the bumper at the location of the spot on the wall, then pivot around that spot to the cue ball to get the line of the shot, and note where on the rail you have to aim.

The basic problem: he doesn't put the bumper at the spot on the wall most of the time.
 
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FYI, here's a way to find the mirror image positions of pockets without "measuring" with your stick - just stand where the pockets and diamonds line up to "triangulate" your target pocket ("SIDE POCKET" or "CORNER POCKET" below), sight from there to the ball you're shooting and remember that point on the kick/bank rail.

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pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
FYI, here's a way to find the mirror image positions of pockets without "measuring" with your stick - just stand where the pockets and diamonds line up to "triangulate" your target pocket ("SIDE POCKET" or "CORNER POCKET" below), sight from there to the ball you're shooting and remember that point on the kick/bank rail. .
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Nice. That's very close to what he is doing, but he doesn't get the SOTW quite right.

Now, how to you do that for sliding bank shots?
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
FYI, here's a way to find the mirror image positions of pockets without "measuring" with your stick - just stand where the pockets and diamonds line up to "triangulate" your target pocket ("SIDE POCKET" or "CORNER POCKET" below), sight from there to the ball you're shooting and remember that point on the kick/bank rail.

View attachment 930826

pj
chgo
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Doing this is basically what I mentioned in post #4. For a quick-and-dirty way to kick at a ball somewhere in the table interior (away from a cushion), I use the tip of my cue to "air measure" to where the mirrored target ball would be to get the base target line. Obviously, adjustments need to be made for different speed and/or spin used, and banking differs a little from kicking.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
You can sight from the mirror location of either the target or the "bullet" - they both point to the same spot on the rail.

pj
chgo
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This is in reference to the pocket-lines, correct? I was specifically explaining that for kicking to a ball in 'no man's land'--say the middle of the table.

It's really just using the mirror system, but using the cue to aid the visualization. Some players will walk to perpendicular to the target ball, and then use the cue to measure to the plane of reflection (diamond line), double that, and then view back to the cue ball. I instead, stand behind the cue ball, put my cue tip over the target *in my field of vision* (not flat over it), and then follow the perpendicular (line) to the mirrored ball location. Then, I hold the cue out towards that spot, and bring it down over the rail to find the kick aimpoint. As I said, "quick and dirty", because the trade off for the target acquisition speed is accuracy! :confused:
 
heater451 said:
This is in reference to the pocket-lines, correct? I was specifically explaining that for kicking to a ball in 'no man's land'--say the middle of the table.
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It works even for two balls in the middle of the table. Sighting from either mirror spot at the other ball works the same for finding the equal-angle rail target.

pj
chgo
 
Bob Jewett said:
I take a little of it back. The method is useful for kicks off the side rails. I don't think he has the length quite right. His method should put the bumper of his cue at the rolling-ball mirror image of the pocket. As a check, the bumper needs to be in line with the end rail. He doesn't check that, and the bumper will be less and less in line as the balls move away from the end rail.

His method of the end-rail kicks is off because the bumper is no where near in-line with the side rails, and the ball will go short for the shots he demonstrated. I guess you could argue they won't be off by much, but I don't like systems with built-in errors. In a lot of rooms, you can't get the bumper to the correct position because of walls and tables. I'm not sure, but maybe the long-way kick could be fixed by rotating half way and then parallel shifting.

The basic idea (corrected): Put the bumper at the location of the spot on the wall, then pivot around that spot to the cue ball to get the line of the shot, and note where on the rail you have to aim.

The basic problem: he doesn't put the bumper at the spot on the wall most of the time.
Click to expand...
That was pretty much what I got and think the video intended....since the cue is approx. the width of the table it somewhat works...(notice however both shots he actually hits rail first not directly into the ball)

I much prefer the mini mirror method (some call it the X method I think).....much better than the full mirror....... as you also mentioned...many rooms there is not enough room to make that extended cue manuvior he demonstrates.......The mini mirror you never leave the bed of the table for the visualization.

It is convenient once you have that three rail "wall spot" reference in a home room

of course no matter what method you use...it only gets you close enough to adjust for conditions.
 
BRKNRUN said:
That was pretty much what I got and think the video intended....since the cue is approx. the width of the table it somewhat works...(notice however both shots he actually hits rail first not directly into the ball)

I much prefer the mini mirror method (some call it the X method I think).....much better than the full mirror....... as you also mentioned...many rooms there is not enough room to make that extended cue manuvior he demonstrates.......The mini mirror you never leave the bed of the table for the visualization.

It is convenient once you have that three rail "wall spot" reference in a home room

of course no matter what method you use...it only gets you close enough to adjust for conditions.
Click to expand...
could someone explain the mini mirror (or X method ) please?
thanks in advance
 
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