Cue Prices... Rediiculous!!!

[cueman]

Look, even though the beginning of this thread was written as though I was pissed off or frustrated about the cuemaker asking too much for their cues I think some have taken what I typed wrong. The questions in the first post were more of an observation of the people buying cues. I looking to buy cues fall into that catagory but can not justify it because of the expense that it has become. Back in 1990 I bought a custom (yea I know its not) Huebler for 75 bucks. It was an average cue. In 1999 I replaced that cue with a Joss for around 120 bucks. Seven years later the same type of cue is over 300 to 400 bucks. I really do not know what the price of a custom cue maker like SW or JossWest or TS or T. Wayne because I was not in the market for cues of that calibur @ the time. But I do know that Arnot was selling his for around 3-5 hundred and you could get a SP for around 150.

The real question was not- why do cuemakers charge as much as they do, it really is why did the market increase the way that it did and how do you justify paying it.

As Rick asked before now that I have gained the knowledge of tables; Would I build another one and if I did could I be competitive with the market. As Fresh prince says in all his movies... "Awww, HELL NO!" Building one table has probably given me more experience than a lot of table mechanics but it by no means has made me proficient enough to produce tables for the market.

Even though it has already happened I appologize for pissing off the cuemakers I did. My post was not directed @ you, just the market that drives what you manufacture and sell. More power to you if you can make a living at what you do best. And I am not one to put a price on your time. I was more interested in how your times price was derived from the people that fund the market. Obviously you can charge what you do because the market allows for it. Hell if you weren't selling cues you wouldn't be doing it.

I don't want a chinese cue, nor a production cue. I have 2 Joss's right now that are just fine. I recently started looking at customs because I wanted to see what was out there and was somewhat surprised.

JV<-- I have A.D.D. and will be over this soon... Wanna go ride a bike?

You didn't make me mad at all. I just offered to help you out in both of your desires. A nice cue for under $1000 or sell you some equipment so you can build that high end cue. Actually the market is down from it's peak. I am pricing cues now a little lower than 10 years ago. CNC equipment has actually raised the top end cue prices by making things unheard of before, and lowering mid range cue prices.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com

 

[StormHotRod300]

I will say one thing, Custom Cue making is a very interesting subject, expecially when it comes to the cost of making a cue.

Its like why does Person A charge 1500$ for a simple 4 pointer, when you can get a cue from Person B that has 6 points and some inlays and rings, for 1200$

Or Why would you wait sometimes upto 7yrs just for someone to make you 1 cue? I mean I could be dead in 7yrs lol. When you can just buy a similar cue by the same guy on the open market.

Or Explain why some of the guys make JB cues that cost 300-400$ and play just as good as the other cues that they sell for 1000$ I mean if people are so uppity about the cost of someones cue, then buy a players cue and save yourself 900$ lol

 

[buddha162]

Its like why does Person A charge 1500$ for a simple 4 pointer, when you can get a cue from Person B that has 6 points and some inlays and rings, for 1200$

A tight, deeply cut 4 pointer is more demanding than your usual 6 pointer...it's harder to get the geometry right on a 4 pointer, just look at the hundreds of cuemakers out there and list how many can get their point base on a 4 pointer to within 1 or 2 mm.

-Roger

 

[buddha162]

Never mind a regular 4 point cue starting at 1500.

I can count on one hand the number of CM's that charge 1500 for a plain 4 pointer w/veneers, both hands at most.

Of course, what some cuemakers think their cues are actually worth is another story altogether...

-Roger

 

[sweatinNbettin]

Inflation. They have to live. Just as prices in every other arena has gone up so has cuemakers. They want to live just like everybody else.

 

[zeeder]

I can count on one hand the number of CM's that charge 1500 for a plain 4 pointer w/veneers, both hands at most.

Of course, what some cuemakers think their cues are actually worth is another story altogether...

-Roger

Let's see, cuemakers that I know charge at least $1500 for a plain cue:

Paul Mottey/James White
Barry Szamboti
Bill Schick
Joel Hercek
Tim Scruggs/Mike Cochran
Ginacue?!
edit:
Pete Tascarella
Tad
BB

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head anyway. Like Roger said, the percentage is pretty darn low!

 

[Charlie Edwards]

How can cue makers justify how much they sell a cue for? It amazes me that people will spend more than 300 for a sp and over 1000 for a plain jane. Never mind a regular 4 point cue starting at 1500. What??? Do you all have money to burn???

Ok so the equipment is expensive... But for what they make on 3 cues pays for at least the lathe maybe even the pantograph. the wood is not that expensive. Blanks range in price from 6 bucks to over 100 (but that is for the highly figured really rare stuff). Yes time is money but with todays equipment how much time does a cuemaker spend cutting points and doing inlays? I would figure that they cannot account for time spent with the cue hanging from the ceiling.

And comes the final argument... Do you pay for the paint and the canvas that the artist uses on a painting or do you pay for the talent that the artist has? I agree with that concept but not everyone is Da Vinci. I can undersand the rarity of a Southwest, G. Szamboti or a Balibushka because those people could not make a cue ever again. But to have some of the relativily unknown charge 1200 bucks for a cue is outragous.

Its not that I could not purchase one of these cues. I just cannot justify in my head why I would pay so much for one. I guess I look @ purchases as being one of "How much did it cost to make?" and "Do I feel as though what I bought was worth the money?". Maybe I am looking at it all wrong.
I think in todays market the idea of "If people are willing to pay that much for it I am willing to charge for it" has gotten out of hand.

This post reminds me of another one I did around 7 years ago about pool tables.. Looks like I might be coming out with a new website... "My Quest to build a high end pool cue!"

JV <----- Tired of looking @ cues that his single family obligations will not let him afford.

I look at 'cue value' a little differently. Let's say you get Bill Schick to build you a cue for $3,000. That cue, if it remains in good condition, will always be worth more than you paid for it. Now let's say you pay $600. for a cue from a not so well known maker. It's doubtful you will ever get back your original investment on that cue.

 

[zeeder]

I look at 'cue value' a little differently. Let's say you get Bill Schick to build you a cue for $3,000. That cue, if it remains in good condition, will always be worth more than you paid for it. Now let's say you pay $600. for a cue from a not so well known maker. It's doubtful you will ever get back your original investment on that cue.

On the other hand, if you buy a cue for $600 from an unknown and he turns into a Schick-level maker than you really hit a jackpot.

 

[ABall]

Let's see, cuemakers that I know charge at least $1500 for a plain cue:

Paul Mottey/James White
Barry Szamboti
Bill Schick
Joel Hercek
Tim Scruggs/Mike Cochran
Ginacue?!

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head anyway. Like Roger said, the percentage is pretty darn low!

You can add:
Pete Tascarella
Tad
BB

All of those cuemakers are well worth what they charge.

 

[cueman]

On the other hand, if you buy a cue for $600 from an unknown and he turns into a Schick-level maker than you really hit a jackpot.

Or if you buy a used Danny Tibbits four point with veneers and ivory inlays for $150 when he was barely known 15 to 16 years ago. Probably bring 5 to 6 grand now. I think the cue actually sold for about $400 brand new.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com

 

[cuesmith]

Thank you for the kind words and a damn excellent question Rick... (I knew you were going to ask it )

I feel as though my table is a one of a kind and I would never sell it. So as I figure it is priceless. But it falls into a different catagory. i never built it to sell. And a cuemaker that builds cues to sell has that one cue that he built for himself that he put many painstaking hours into knowing that it was his and it is in his eyes perfect (except for the minor blemishes that only he knows about). He will never sell that cue because it was never made to be sold. But production and sales falls into a different world completely. If I am looking to sell my table when I made it I would not have spent the time to hand carve the feet or worry about the additional support for the slate. I would not have mitred the corners the way I did or do 5 coats of finish so it was perfect. Yes it took me 8 months to build it because I wanted to make sure that it was in everyway what I wanted.

BTW I will see you at chalkies tonight.

Actually, your logic is 180 degrees out, for custom cuemakers. Maybe cue manufacturers would fit into your mold better, but as a custom cuemaker, I can tell you that when a customer commissions you to make him a cue, he expects you to build it as you would if it were for yourself! And lots of the cues I make take in excess of 8 months to complete. Obviously I'm not working on it day in and day out. That's not the best way to make a good cue. I generally have 25 - 40 cues in some stage of construction at all times and that's not taking into account the hundreds of shafts hanging for at least a month between passes, before finally being either used or rejected and burnt in my wood stove for heat!
There are cuemakers who care enough about their work to try to deliver quality cues for their customers, rather than just slamming them out as you seem to think. Sure, I could probably do all the operations it a day or so to make the kind of cue you're suggesting, but only a hack would do that and I as a cuemaker kinda resent the way you've classified everyone into this catagory by your insensitive post!

just more hot air!

Sherm

 

[Bishop]

If the cue is turned too quicky or finished too fast, rings will pop and warpage is certain. Things take time.

 

[Billiard Architect]

Actually, your logic is 180 degrees out, for custom cuemakers. Maybe cue manufacturers would fit into your mold better, but as a custom cuemaker, I can tell you that when a customer commissions you to make him a cue, he expects you to build it as you would if it were for yourself! And lots of the cues I make take in excess of 8 months to complete. Obviously I'm not working on it day in and day out. That's not the best way to make a good cue. I generally have 25 - 40 cues in some stage of construction at all times and that's not taking into account the hundreds of shafts hanging for at least a month between passes, before finally being either used or rejected and burnt in my wood stove for heat!
There are cuemakers who care enough about their work to try to deliver quality cues for their customers, rather than just slamming them out as you seem to think. Sure, I could probably do all the operations it a day or so to make the kind of cue you're suggesting, but only a hack would do that and I as a cuemaker kinda resent the way you've classified everyone into this catagory by your insensitive post!

just more hot air!

Sherm

I do know that cues take time. I hate to use it as a reference again, but it is the only thing I can relate it to... I let the slate sit on my table 2 weeks before doing final leveling because I knew there would be settling. I have visited a couple of cuemaker shops and have drooled over their cues hanging in wait for the next turn. I look @ shops a bit differently than most. I am amazed at the different pieces of machinery used to make cues. I guess I figure if I am going to spend that much money on a cue I would spend it on a lathe. Something I could use to build my cues and some other things.

 

[Billiard Architect]

Sure, I could probably do all the operations it a day or so to make the kind of cue you're suggesting, but only a hack would do that and I as a cuemaker kinda resent the way you've classified everyone into this catagory by your insensitive post!

Sherm,

Damn, you have known me for years and I am at most times a level headed poster. In no way was I wanting to insult anyone. As I stated before I was asking why people pay so much for cues not why does anyone charge so much for cues. I guess they are a one in one question but I was not directing it at cuemakers.

JV

 

[Billiard Architect]

You know I think I am going to just drop this because I do not want it to get out of hand (which I think it has). I consider most of you friends and would hate to tarnish that because of this topic. The market is what it is and more power to all that deal in it.

Sorry if I offended anyone.

JV

 

[sweatinNbettin]

You know I think I am going to just drop this because I do not want it to get out of hand (which I think it has). I consider most of you friends and would hate to tarnish that because of this topic. The market is what it is and more power to all that deal in it.

Sorry if I offended anyone.

JV

JV,

I personally wasn't offended.I think that maybe your question may have fared better if it was worded differently.From the first line it appears that it is a somewhat attack on cuemakers.If your intent was to understand why people pay that much,different wording may have helped.

On a personal note, I paid alot for my cue because of playability, looks and I wanted to spoil myself. Plus I knew I could get most if not all of my investment back out of the cue. Hope this sheds a little light. Have a nice day.

 

[ridewiththewind]

Hey JV...I agree that it did sound somewhat that you were indicating that cuemakers charge too much for their cues. Now, if you were actually wanting to know why people pay so much for their cues...you'll get as many answers as their are cuemakers.....motivation is often variable.

I started with a lowend custom cue years ago. I really had no clue back then, of just exactly what my direction was. I, too, do not normally have the disposable income to purchase highend cues. I took me over 6 years of buying and trading...working my way up to get to the level of cue that my last Skip Weston was. It was gorgeous. Then I had to part with it, sadly.

So, I am back to starting over again...only this time, I have a focus and direction for what I am looking for...unlike when I first purchased a custom. All those pretty inlays didn't make me a better player, I had to work on that on my own...and will continue until I'm gone. But, I have found recently, that it is possible to find some pretty darn awesome playing cues for low cash outlay...you just need to do your homework, and a little luck doesn't hurt either.

Lisa

 

[Chris Byrne]

This isnt simply a markup situation.....the average CUSTOMcue maker makes roughly 100-125 cues a year if he is lucky. If he didnt sell a cue for over $1000, he would generate roughly $87,000(125x700) in gross sales. Materials im guessing would equal out to $25,000(125x200). Oh yeah, what if he wants to work in an actual workshop and not his garage. Tack on atleast $1200 for rent or 14,400. I live in california and you are freaking dreaming to find a office space for under $1600. Now lets throw in additional overhead for bad wood, repairs on machinery, and everything else we dont know about the custom cue business at $10,000.

Gross Income: $87,000
Materials: -$25,000
Rent: -$14,400
Expenses: -$10,000
Annual Salary: $37,600

If this cuemaker wants to raise a family or for that matter buy a house, forget about it!

Im sure my material costs are totally unrealistic since he will be doing high end inlaid cues with ivory for around $1000.

THERE YOU GO BUDDY, LOW PRODUCTION = HIGH PRICES, GO BUY A Lucasi or something

Don't forget tradeshows to get your name out there with booth spaces at or over $1000 each plus hotel plus airfare or gas ect... I don't know of many custom cuemakers who live in a mansion. There are tons of hidden costs. Chris.

 

[mantis99]

Tradeshows should pay for themselves though in sales.

Obviously there are a few ways of looking at this. $5000 to even $10000 is not much cost in equipment to start a buisness of any kind. Also, the mark up for something that in general does not cost much in materails, is very high. It can be hard to swallow the idea that you are paying over $1000 for something is only worth maybe $100-$200 in materails. So, the black and white difference seems awfully large, sometimes to the point of being ridiculous. On the other hand, I am sure that becoming proficient at cuemaking takes some serious time and education, and is a large part of what you are paying for. Why do you think physicians make so much money. In all reality, all a cue has to be able to do is hit a ball straight. We have gotten to a point where cues have become more about art than just performance, and that has allowed the price to be elevated. A cue is like an artists canvas. Many people pay a lot of money for art work that costs very little in materials. It is the time the artist put into the piece itself, and the time he took learning his craft. It is also the uniqueness of the piece that others cannot duplicate. A lot of what we pay is this. It would be nice if the better cuemakers made hig quality cues for playing only at amore reasonable price, yet still made their high end more artistic cues. I really only care how it plays, not how it looks so much, so I amnot about to spend over $1000 for a cue that will not significantly out perform a $500 cue that I can buy. That is just me. Others like the artistic side of it. Just don't think the increased money will make you play better.

 

[cuesmith]

Sherm,

Damn, you have known me for years and I am at most times a level headed poster. In no way was I wanting to insult anyone. As I stated before I was asking why people pay so much for cues not why does anyone charge so much for cues. I guess they are a one in one question but I was not directing it at cuemakers.

JV

I'll accept that JV, because I don't think you really meant to offend anyone, but when a person puts their heart and soul into their work words like that can be disheartening! What people need to understand that the cost of a cue is not just the the materials in it. Most of us throw away (or burn) as many shafts as we're able to use and the cost of maintaining a suitable inventory of exotic hardwoods, dried and made ready for cuemaking, all the necessary plastics, adhesives, tips, wraps and finishes needed would stagger most people. Then you have all the hours you put in learning the best ways to build cues, the wasted wood, the disappointment when the cues had to be scrapped because they weren't up to par. It all adds to the cost of a fine cue just as the cost of living has. Even cuemakers have mouths to feed and bills to pay. We need to make a decent living or else we just can't keep it up! The funny thing is that the people who usually are the most critical of cue prices are the people who are earning the most themselves and they seem to begrudge other people of earning a living wage themselves. That's why it's kind of a sore spot with me. It's already hard enough to make a living building cues, with all the "part-time cuemakers" doing it as a hobby or sideline. The guys who've made the commitment to do it full time as their livelyhood are feeling the pinch, unless they are one of the "in vogue" cuemakers. I'll admit that there are cuemakers who are able to get a pretty high price for rather basic cues, but they paid a lot of dues first, believe me! And for the most part, the secondary market dictated that they should raise their prices. When a cuemaker delivers a cue to someone who turns around and sells it for sometimes twice what it originally cost, the cuemaker feels like he really needs to reevaluate his pricing.
Don't mean to drag this out or make it a big deal, just wanted to explain, from a cuemakers perspective, why cues cost what they do. And I hope theres no hard feelings, none here, just felt the need to explain!

just more hot air!

Sherm