CUE TESTING for Cue Ball Deflection, And PREDATOR REVO Carbon Fiber Shaft SIZE EFFECTS

dr_dave

dr_dave

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FYI, I just posted a new video that shows how to easily test and compare cues for the cue ball deflection that comes with using sidespin. Every shaft creates a different amount of CB deflection. A range of shafts are tested and compared in the video, including a solid maple shaft, an LD maple shaft, and several sizes of Predator Revo carbon-fiber shafts:


Content:
0:00 - Intro
1:23 - Testing Procedure
3:34 - Tests
6:19 - Results
8:17 - Wrap Up

As always, I look forward to your feedback, comments, questions, complaints, and requests.

Enjoy!
 
It would be interesting to re-run this experiment with a range to tip harnesses. But the leading indication is that harder tips deflect less.....

I think I will stick with my 11.3mm Z3 S-tuned.
 
The experiment would be good for different billiard ball materials.
 
it was interesting, to see how a normal solid maple, compares to the modern technology.
Not even something I would ever notice. been using normal maple. For a very long time.
Like you said, you just learn how to compensate for the deflection.
 
Interesting how all the Revo's are so close. Not enough difference to notice when playing with it. I do kinda the same test when demo'ing shafts. I tried my ivory ferruled Jensen the other day and was surprised/apalled/horrified at how much the ball squirted. My Mezz HybridPro(12.8 maple with cf rod inside it) is medium low defl. compared to some but a lot less than the 'ol Jense.
 
Thanks for putting this together! I was pretty surprised that the conventional shaft was roughly 50% more deflection, I would have expected more deflection with the solid maple. You said that you kept the cue aligned with the same spot on the rail, would you say that this was comparable to using exclusively front hand English? Or was the cue moved parallel to the line of aim?
 
MitchAlsup said:
It would be interesting to re-run this experiment with a range to tip harnesses. But the leading indication is that harder tips deflect less.....
Click to expand...

The main purpose of the video was to show how easy it is to do tests like this so others can test whatever they want on their own.

FYI, the jury is still out concerning the effects of tip hardness on CB deflection. For more info, see the "Does tip hardness have an effect on CB deflection?" section at the bottom of the page here:
 
tomatoshooter said:
Thanks for putting this together! I was pretty surprised that the conventional shaft was roughly 50% more deflection, I would have expected more deflection with the solid maple. You said that you kept the cue aligned with the same spot on the rail, would you say that this was comparable to using exclusively front hand English? Or was the cue moved parallel to the line of aim?
Click to expand...

The aim was perfectly parallel to center-ball aim with no pivoting whatsover.
 
Another nice video again by the good doctor.

Interesting findings on the Revo with triangle tip which gave a lower deflection.
How will a triangle tip holds up against another hard tip like victory hard or zan hard or any other hard tip?

I remembered when I got a Revo shaft, there were some discussion on not putting a hard tip on a Revo because the shaft itself is very stiff. Predator recommends soft or medium tip for the revo.
 
Dave does cue weight effect deflection. Seems there was a guy with like a 40ounce cue and bet was you couldn't get a 4 playing 3 ball.
 
Blue said:
Another nice video again by the good doctor.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

Blue said:
Interesting findings on the Revo with triangle tip which gave a lower deflection.
Click to expand...

There honestly wasn't much difference, and it really wasn't a fair comparison since the Revo with the Triangle was from many years ago. The other (with the Victory soft tip and white vault plate) was brand new. The Revo design manufacturing might have undergone some slight changes over all these years.

Concerning the effects of tip hardness on CB deflection, see the "Does tip hardness have an effect on CB deflection?" section at the bottom of the page here:



Blue said:
How will a triangle tip holds up against another hard tip like victory hard or zan hard or any other hard tip?
Click to expand...

The video shows how to easily do tests and comparisons. Go for it.


Blue said:
I remembered when I got a Revo shaft, there were some discussion on not putting a hard tip on a Revo because the shaft itself is very stiff. Predator recommends soft or medium tip for the revo.
Click to expand...

They were probably worried people wouldn't like the sound or "feel" of a hard tip on the stiff shaft. I personally don't care how a cue sounds or "feels." I just care that the CB goes where I want with the speed I want, and that's on me (not the cue). I prefer harder tips per the info on the page linked above.
 
dr_dave said:
Thanks.



There honestly wasn't much difference, and it really wasn't a fair comparison since the Revo with the Triangle was from many years ago. The other (with the Victory soft tip and white vault plate) was brand new. The Revo design manufacturing might have undergone some slight changes over all these years.

Concerning the effects of tip hardness on CB deflection, see the "Does tip hardness have an effect on CB deflection?" section at the bottom of the page here:





The video shows how to easily do tests and comparisons. Go for it.




They were probably worried people wouldn't like the sound or "feel" of a hard tip on the stiff shaft. I personally don't care how a cue sounds or "feels." I just care that the CB goes where I want with the speed I want, and that's on me (not the cue). I prefer harder tips per the info on the page linked above.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately I only have one Revo installed with the stock predator tip to test on.

If a hard tip will help reduce deflection, I wouldn't mind changing to a triangle.

Blue - doesn't cares about the sound or feedback. What matters is the delivery to the CB.
 
MitchAlsup said:
dr_dave said:
The main purpose of the video was to show how easy it is to do tests like this so others can test whatever they want on their own.

FYI, the jury is still out concerning the effects of tip hardness on CB deflection. For more info, see the "Does tip hardness have an effect on CB deflection?" section at the bottom of the page here:
Click to expand...
It is because there is little well performed tests; that there is no scientific data -- that those test should be performed.
Click to expand...

See the links in the section at the resource page mentioned above. I have done some tests, and the results were "mixed."

In case you don't want to click on the link and scroll, here's the pertinent section:

There are many factors related to tip hardness that could influence squirt (CB deflection), including: tip density/weight, tip efficiency, contact time, and effective endmass. “Return of the squirt robot” (BD, August, 2008) documents an experiment related to the effects of tip hardness on squirt. A softer tip did seem to create slightly more squirt, but the experiment was not very well controlled (see the article for more info). In general, if the contact time is longer (as is the case with a softer tip), the effective endmass and resulting squirt should be larger. Another set of more careful experiments documented in the Cue and Tip Testing for Cue Ball Deflection (Squirt) video and “Cue Tip Squirt Testing” (BD, June, 2014) seem to imply that tip type, hardness, and height have very little effect on shaft squirt. Among the wide range of tips tested in the video, the harder tips did result in slightly more squirt. This makes sense because the harder tips are generally denser and heavier, creating more “endmass.” The shorter contact time seems to be less of a factor than the added weight. Although, a soft tip that is dense and heavy would definitely create more CB deflection. But a soft tip also deforms more sideways during the hit, possibly resulting in less shaft motion sideways, which would reduce CB deflection. Regardless, tip hardness does not seem to affect CB deflection very much.
 
Not sure I see how you got over an inch of deflection with the shafts, I played with a Revo for months, and there is no way I was compensating more than 1/4th of an inch on even table length spin shots. If the shafts actually deflected that much, we would all look like Bustamante aiming past the ball even with low deflection, the end chart shows 2 inches for a 12.4 Revo, same shaft I used for a long time, that means I would be aiming to totally miss the ball when using side to have it come back 2 inches the other way, I have never done that, aim pretty much full on.

I use the same test, or what looks like it, and using the best LD shafts I can hit a ball just about full in the face to 1/8th inch off against the end rail from the spot with as much spin as I can get on the ball at almost any speed. With a shaft like the 314 or an OB1 Pro, I hit the ball about half way from center, which is not even an inch. Only time I miss the full ball was using standard shafts, which would be 1.25 inches or more from center (1/2 of the ball). When I tried this with many LD shafts, from the Players HXT 12.75mm, which is probably the highest deflection LD shaft, to the Revo, the difference was about 1" shooting from the spot to end rail from least to greatest deflection. I line up on the cueball even with the spin, so my bridge and back hand are about an inch off center, and aim straight at the same point on the object ball, so basically line up center to center, then move to the side a bit for the spin amount I want to use, maintaining the same cue line to the object ball, keeping the cue parallel to the center line.

Another test my son likes to do is hit a straight shot with spin and try to play a stop shot where the cueball just sits in place spinning. I know he does not aim anywhere near 1 inch off the normal center line even with max spin where the cueball spins for 8+ seconds.
 
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hangthe9: you’re probably compensating without trying. Im sure every experienced pool player does. I know I use backhand english when applying spin, but I do it unconsciously, and didn’t realize I did it until analyzing it quite a bit. I consciously use front-hand english blended with unconscious (or natural?) back-hand English, as best I can tell.
 
What did I gather from this? Mainly, that all shafts deflect. They deflect more at high speed than slow. Carbon fiber deflects less than wood.
My general conclusion is that a player wanting to improve his game should pick a shaft that gives him a good feel and feedback. In other words, look for his own "sweet hit". Once he finds that, do not change shafts hoping a different one will deflect less...stick with the same shaft, and practice until it's deflection is 2nd nature to you. Carbon fiber's main advantage, other than it's wear & tear toughness, should be in consistency of deflection between shafts of the same specs, while wood shafts would vary because of the nature of the material. Even Maple taken from the same area of the tree would have differences in cell structure, grain pattern, etc.

Superb work, Dr. Dave...Thank you.
 
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