Hi guys I keep reading how long the wait is for certain cuemakers like Hercek, mottey, southwest, bluegrass, Josswest, Shick, etc. Do these cues actually play better than cuemakers that take much less time or is it the fact that they have such a great name in the business that it is desirable to have and show one off. I know one reason is the resale value but to buy one usually costs more. I see on ebay that some rather plain looking sticks from these cuemakers sell for 2000 and up. I currently have a Phillippi cue that I love. How does his cuemaking compare to some of the ones I mentioned
custom cue makers
- Thread starter Rick
- Start date
azbicyclis85376
Banned
Well you have opened a Can O Worms, but I would say if I was Rich & Famous I would spend too much money on Cues. As I think they are an Art Form in my eyes.
Just yesterday a guy I know what more GREEN than me showed up where I play with his newly acquired SIX GRAND PLUS GINA Cue. Says he has been offered 8500 Big Ones for it already, it was Art, and I got fuzzy looking at it.
I say to you buy what you can afford, play with it, and enjoy it. weather or not it appreciates is a CRAP SHOOT.
Want a Guaranteed return on you money, think Certificate of Deposit at the B of A is the ticket.
Want a nice Cue or two, or three, or ?, buy it, enjoy it, play with it and have fun. Just my two cent on the subject, correct?, incorrect? Just my two cent worth.
Pool is for fun, to relieve stress, life if way too stressful.
Just yesterday a guy I know what more GREEN than me showed up where I play with his newly acquired SIX GRAND PLUS GINA Cue. Says he has been offered 8500 Big Ones for it already, it was Art, and I got fuzzy looking at it.
I say to you buy what you can afford, play with it, and enjoy it. weather or not it appreciates is a CRAP SHOOT.
Want a Guaranteed return on you money, think Certificate of Deposit at the B of A is the ticket.
Want a nice Cue or two, or three, or ?, buy it, enjoy it, play with it and have fun. Just my two cent on the subject, correct?, incorrect? Just my two cent worth.
Pool is for fun, to relieve stress, life if way too stressful.
Q Addiction
Registered
Phillippi cues.
Hi Rick, I was collecting Phillippi cues several years back. After going to several pro tournaments and talking with some of the top cue vendors, I found that Phillippi cues are definitely not thought of in the same catagory as the cue makers you listed in your post. I heard a few different stories why, which I will not post on here. I found it difficult to get my money back out of them when selling or trading. However, there are alot of Phillippi cues out there that I like and play jam up. Although, I have also seen some that the quality was suspect. JMO, Todd.
Hi Rick, I was collecting Phillippi cues several years back. After going to several pro tournaments and talking with some of the top cue vendors, I found that Phillippi cues are definitely not thought of in the same catagory as the cue makers you listed in your post. I heard a few different stories why, which I will not post on here. I found it difficult to get my money back out of them when selling or trading. However, there are alot of Phillippi cues out there that I like and play jam up. Although, I have also seen some that the quality was suspect. JMO, Todd.
drivermaker
Banned
Rick said:
Whether they play better or not is still very subjective to different individuals. I've heard many a player say that they just didn't like the way some of your above mentioned cues felt...and many more that love and swear by them. They are carefully crafted and the workmanship as well as the attention to minute detail is usually always there in the big name cues. Although I recently heard of some cosmetic problems here on AZ with a SW, that's not normally the case with any of the big names. They're usually flawless.
South West has always been known for their rock solid hit much more than the flawless work. They do indeed build some very high end fancy cues that you would be hard pressed to find much fault in. Most of the others in the original list are better known for their art form than the hit. Their cues probably play great for the type hit they are trying to acheive, but what makes them highly collectible is the art form. The points being absolutely perfectly even does not help the cue play better, and sometimes the internal integrity of the cue is compromised slightly in order to bring those points perfectly even. That has become the litmus test for v-groove cues in most buyers minds and so-be-it. But why is another question?drivermaker said:
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
drivermaker
Banned
cueman said:
I think some of the cues in that group besides SW hit pretty damn good. I like the feel, although I haven't hit them all.
Honest assessment...how do you think YOUR cues hit in comparison to a SW or some of the others regarding firmness or softness? What type of joint, ferrule, and joint collars do you prefer for your cues and why? I'm just curious, I've liked the way some of your cues look for design.
I currently have 6 southwest cues, 2004, 2002, 2000, 1999, 1997 & 1995. I have to say that when I looked at the 2004 & 2002 cues closely at the point/veneer work, there are flaws mainly uneven points/veneers. In those cues, the outer veneers are fine. Their height are close to even within an acceptable range. But the interior veneers are sometimes off by 1/8 - 1/4 inch. According to Laurie Franklin, they are paying more attention to the playability of the cue rather than the asthetics.
You know who does excellent point work, Mike Bender. Absolutely flawless. I have a 60point Mike Bender cue, on my website below, and the points all the same height. What makes it more incredible is that the points are not veneers but they are hardwood milled/recut points. Mike's workmanship is second to none. And his cues plays awesome to say the least. I highly recommend Bender cues.
You know who does excellent point work, Mike Bender. Absolutely flawless. I have a 60point Mike Bender cue, on my website below, and the points all the same height. What makes it more incredible is that the points are not veneers but they are hardwood milled/recut points. Mike's workmanship is second to none. And his cues plays awesome to say the least. I highly recommend Bender cues.
drivermaker
Banned
dooziexx said:
And do you think this is a good business trend in the long run for them? Sounds to me like an excuse for cutting corners or not having someone trained good enough that gives a damn any more.
A Corvette is still a hot running car with good performance. Even with their reputation, how would you like to buy a new one where the doors or fenders didn't line up just quite right or there were flaws in the paint job? I can tell you right now, there won't be any new SW's as part of MY consideration.
I've seen two with broken veneers on top of the points.jhendri2 said:
I just think they don't have time to zero in the blanks and square them flush at the bottom.
Besides, the two defective ones I saw were still bought and for sale by the dealer.
I agree with Eric on Bender. Great cues and are cosmetically perfect for the most part.
I stated that those other cues probably play great for the type hit they are trying to achieve, but are more famous for their artistic design. I would put the hit of my cues about half way between a older Meucci and a South West. Firmer hit than Meucci, but more action than a South West. As Goldie Locks said: Just Right.drivermaker said:
That sounds like bragging, but to me the hit is just right. And many others feel the same way, but the hit will not please everyone. Mama bear and papa bear won't like it. Too soft or too hard. I usually adjust the hit and stiffness of the cue by changing things in the shaft. Almost all of my shafts will interchange. So you can get a stiff Laminated shaft if desired or High Action ferrule for those who need the cue ball action of a Meucci. For those who want high action and alot of stiffness they get laminated shaft and high action ferrule. But normally I build tight grained maple shaft with a modified pro-taper 13mm and 5/16-14 flat faced joint with either brass or phenolic insert with a white linen based ferrule. That produces the Goldie Locks hit. For the mama and papa bears I vary the above things and of course tips.
I don't normally core forearms. I use lighter handle wood and titanium joint pin with phenolic insert to hold the weight down on an ebony or coco-bolo cue.
I prefer the linen phenolic joint for strength and natural feeling hit. I prefer the tan linen phenolic ferrule for natural hit also, but only install them on my carom cues unless requested, because the market is not ready for a brown ferrule no matter how much it improves the hit. On my carom cues I use a 1/2" diameter nylon joint screw and super stiff shaft taper. The brown ferrule on the carom cue is less than 1/2" long so it is not an eye sore. I should have another batch of cues done shortly after the first of the year if you want to try one that is less expensive than the few I have ready now. They start at $1500.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
I saw some criticism above for the inner veneers not matching in length. If there is any variation in thickness of the veneers that will happen. Here is how you can compromise the internal integrity of the cue by getting all of the points even. On a short splice cue there is normall a screw in the middle of the cue at the bottom of the points. There is also a fairly thin wall of wood with a tenon inside. Let's say the cue moves (warps) a little while turning the cue down. Does the cue maker toss the cue? Probably not. The warpage cause the point to come out uneven. Now what does he do? Probably moves the center point over until the point even up with tiny passes. This can make the thin wood wall even thinner on one side and puts the screw off center. Not a real big deal, but it does compromise the internal integrity slightly.jhendri2 said:
Can cues be built without warping during the turning process? Yes but most aren't. Some put their point blank onto the handle after turning it all the way down. Very few of those cue roll perfectly straight, but have nice even points.
Comparing to cars it is like having a nice paint job, but a warped frame. Or it is like having a perfectly straight looking body on the car, but underneath the paint is a good bit of bondo. You get the point. The guys who decided to judge cuemakers work mainly on how even their points were are probably decendents of the guy who invented neck ties.
Chris
cueman said:
Are SW cues short splice? I thought they were floating points. If I'm wrong I apologize.
As far as your last comment, it was us, the players, aka consumers. Just like in our game we want perfection, not compromise. I can't imagine a company or maker that puts out cues with uneven points or inlays lasting very long.
Just my opinion,
Jim
cueman said:
Chris,
I don't know who you know that builds short splices but that person should give up cuemaking. That being said, YES it is quality if points are EVEN. It takes talent to make the points line up without the use of markers, or even compromising the internal integrity. It is also a sign of QUALITY if the veneers don't have gaps in them. I am not related to anyone that invented neckties but I absolutely am entitled to buy cues where the cuemaker actually took the time to build a nice cue, as opposed to some hack that made uneven, gappy points. What that tells me in the cue is MORE suspect because if he short cutted the asthetics God knows what else he short cutted in my cue.
Joe (---people who wear neckties should not operate lathes
drivermaker said:
DM,
Thats an excuse that Laurie made. Not me. Nowhere in my posts suggest that its ok for the points not to line up. Im just passing info along without taking sides. If Im paying that kind of money, you know damm well that I would want everything to be perfect. SouthWest is not the only cuemaker that has this problem. Ive seen Richard Blacks that have the some problem too. Even with that little flaw/imperfection, SouthWest still has a 7-8year waiting list. The overall quality and playability of their cues is what keeping them in business.
-Erik
drivermaker
Banned
dooziexx said:
I realize that it wasn't you, nor did I think that you were condoning it.
But that waiting list has been going on way before these problems and excuses have been cropping up. Start another waiting list over a 7-8 year period that begins on Jan. 1, 2005 and by the time 2012 rolls around you're going to see a whole bunch of cancellations and maybe even NO waiting list if their trend toward imperfections continues. It's total bullshit IMO.
Montomery Ward was a great company and around for a long time and they're out of business. Companies come and go, and when quality starts taking a slide and excuses are made all too frequently, that's the road to nowhere and a lesson in how to run a once well thought of company into the ground.
Joe made a great point, and that's if they're taking short cuts and cutting corners in the aesthetics, what else could be going on within the cue itself.
Crying out loud, you have Meucci bashers beating on him mercilessly for problems that have occured over the years on a $500 cue or less, yet, they're more than willing to accept shit work on a cue that's over 2 grand?
This doesn't make sense! Until a cue can be shown to make more balls based on it's secret design, NO CUE hits THAT damn great to make a difference. It's still just a piece of wood and a status symbol more than anything. It might as well look good for the money.
Predator does.
Hit with a Bender, Petersen, Hagan, Zylr or a Scruggs sneaky.
You might be convinced some cues do really hit pretty darn good.
