Poke N Hope said:
a good example would be... well, a black boar.
http://www.blackboarcustomcues.com/howto/default.asp?CTID=98&IID=
Custom Cue
- Thread starter Dawgie
- Start date
a good example would be... well, a black boar.
http://www.blackboarcustomcues.com/howto/default.asp?CTID=98&IID=
Now I'm really confused.Shawn Armstrong said:
Can't you just tell them any factory can make the cues you make?
CNC'd or not, if the cue is done right and beautifully ( err dare I say if it doesn't look cnc'd ? ) it will sell and resell right.
Why are you confused? I play with a Schon. I've had the cue for a few years. Whenever I make a cue, I take it out and horse around with it. When someone finds out it's one of my cues that I make, they try it out and buy it. So, the problem that I had was that I'd take 3 months to make my cue, and then I'd sell it the first night I brought it out. So, I play with a Schon STL-4. No one ever hits with it and says "Man, I have to have that exact cue" when I can tell him to call a Schon dealer and buy one. Do my cues play any better than the Schon? Nope. They both play well. I make a spliced cue, and I don't do wraps. That's the style of cue that I like. Southwest makes them, Coker makes them, Gilbert makes them, Bluegrass, etc.. It's not an exclusive design. I don't build cues to keep the lights on. It's more of a hobby. I'm not taking any more orders, as when I am done with the wood I have left, I am finished with making cues. I started out on a dare from a buddy of mine, who said I should make a cue, seeing as my repairs were flawless. I tried it out, and I've proven to myself and others that I build a good cue. My point in these discussions were to let people know that custom is not better than production. There's a stigma that people put on custom cues as being better in quality than a production cues. There are bad custom cues and great production cues. Watch the interview with Richard Harris of Bluegrass Cues that JCIN posted. Richard says he loved the way his old McDermott played, and used that cue as the design for his own cues. McDermott.JoeyInCali said:
branpureza said:
The point I was making is about CNC inlaid Points in the forearm not about CNC used for inlays and Tapering. Black Boars have traditional V-spliced points in the forearm. I have had over 12 cues with inlaid points, not to play with but for collecting/selling/trading. All of which would be classified as level 5 or higher and from the big names and the resale and/or trading vaules on these cues were nowhere near the vaules of similar cues with traditional v-spliced points. Which is what MANWON is saying.
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Joss Custom Cues, Schon Custom Cues, Jacoby Custom Cues.Koop said:
Custom cue makers that make them right - they just happen to make more of them.
.......and don't charge as much for them.
Poke N Hope said:
hmm, that's weird because the points of this black boar sure do appear to be cnc to me...
First, you can make spliced cues with a cnc mill. So, v-points doesn't mean they are not cnc'd anymore.Shawn Armstrong said:
There's a stigma that people put on custom cues as being better in quality than a production cues.
OK, so a Runde now is not any better than a cookie-cutter Schon out there?
Seen x-rays of cues lately?
Richard says he loved the way his old McDermott played, and used that cue as the design for his own cues. McDermott.[/
Err, I wonder if Richard likes the new McD's. All flat-bottom points now arent' they? I doubt if Richard's butts have the same taper as McD's. They don't for a reason. His shafts' taper is nowhere close to McD's either.
There are bad custom cues and great production cues.
That's given. Bad custom cuemakers don't hang around that long. Even if he had a hall of fame credentials. Once the word got out his cues are getting crappy, the phone stops ringing.
So you made 50-60 cues to answer a dare?
Made a cue on a dare. It sold. Someone saw it and asked for a cue. I made it. Someone saw that cue, and asked me to make one. This chain went on and on. I have 10 more cues to make, and I'm done. I took a year off due to a move and setting my miniscule shop up.JoeyInCali said:
Oh, just so you know, when Runde was running Schon with Terry Romine, Evan was still making all the cues for Schon. All those wonderful spliced R series cues were made by Evan. Email him or call him. He'll tell you.
McDermott still splices their cues, here and there. Look at the Deacon, as well as the new spliced cues that came out to the dealers. Their taper on the shaft hasn't changed since then.
And, Dan Breggin used to make cues. Skins programmed his CNC machine for him. He used to make a FANTASTIC cue. Same quality as Keith (if not a shade better), had a big name player using his cues (Dennis Hatch), and he's no longer in the business. Cue making doesn't pay the bills unless you sell a lot of cues, or make 100 per year, but charge over $2k for your average cue.
branpureza said:hmm, that's weird because the points of this black boar sure do appear to be cnc to me...
The ebony is v-spliced. The rest is cnc.
Poke N Hope said:
branpureza said:hmm, that's weird because the points of this black boar sure do appear to be cnc to me...
Poke N Hope said:
so when you say "Black Boars have traditional V-spliced points in the forearm...", you are only referring to the 1st point? how can you even tell that the outside point isn't cnc as well?
branpureza said:
1st point concerning this cue not all of his cues. The Black Boar I refered to was made in 1992 and had the old Boars head logo that he stopped using in 1994. It was a 6 point (3 hi 3 low) with ebony and Ivory veneers, all sharp points. Had silver inlay in the butt sleeve and would be classified as a high level 2 or low end level 3 cue.
All Black Boars cues that I have had. 14 in total, all of which are the old logo cues made before 1994, 2 of which are my personal playing cues are V-spliced cues. Many conversations and visits to Tony's shop in College Park Maryland I have never seen a Black Boar cue with all cnc inlaid points. If you really want to know for sure then I would suggest you call Tony and ask him.
With that being said. It is my expereince when selling and/or Trading high end cues (200+) That traditional made cues have a better resell/trade value than CNC inlaid point cues.
Tony and Bill Stroud (JossWest) have been known to CNC mill their points out, and finish them off by hand with a razor or precision chisel. Bill's done a few cues that you'd swear were spliced by looking at them. I think Tony does the same. They are works of art. I have yet to hit with one that has made me 2 balls better, as a player.
There are some brilliant artisans out there that have used CNC to build their cues. Keith Josey has made some brilliant cues. So has Joey Gold. So has Tony and Bill. Jerry McWorter makes some breathtaking cues also. If we're talking about cues as art, then let's throw in Thomas Wayne, Showman, Phillipi, etc..
This isn't my point. I don't hang cues on my wall. I play with them. And, as a consumer that has paid $40 and $1k for cues I have owned, I have never had a great custom cue that played any better than a great production cue. Any time someone comes along and says "I have $500 to buy a new cue", as soon as Schon or Joss get mentioned, the usual response is "Nah, go get yourself one of them there custom jobbies, they're hoots better than a PRE-duction cue" (done in the voice of Mater from CARS). I'm sick and tired of reading that custom cues play better than production cues. They don't. Anyone who tells you differently is trying to sell you something. If you have special needs, like a longer or shorter cue due to your size, then custom is best because it will fit you properly. If, however, you are buying a 58" cue off the rack, don't think that a $600 Schon will not play at the same level as a $2000 Southwest. It will.
There are some brilliant artisans out there that have used CNC to build their cues. Keith Josey has made some brilliant cues. So has Joey Gold. So has Tony and Bill. Jerry McWorter makes some breathtaking cues also. If we're talking about cues as art, then let's throw in Thomas Wayne, Showman, Phillipi, etc..
This isn't my point. I don't hang cues on my wall. I play with them. And, as a consumer that has paid $40 and $1k for cues I have owned, I have never had a great custom cue that played any better than a great production cue. Any time someone comes along and says "I have $500 to buy a new cue", as soon as Schon or Joss get mentioned, the usual response is "Nah, go get yourself one of them there custom jobbies, they're hoots better than a PRE-duction cue" (done in the voice of Mater from CARS). I'm sick and tired of reading that custom cues play better than production cues. They don't. Anyone who tells you differently is trying to sell you something. If you have special needs, like a longer or shorter cue due to your size, then custom is best because it will fit you properly. If, however, you are buying a 58" cue off the rack, don't think that a $600 Schon will not play at the same level as a $2000 Southwest. It will.
OK, I've read enough.Shawn Armstrong said:
So Bob Runde's cues are not any better than the Schon off the rack. Construction wise or playability wise.
Or you couldn't make a cue to hit better than a Schon.
branpureza said:
FYI, The pics on this website that you see of Tony's work shop is of his new one. I have never been to the new one, only his old shop. At his old shop he had 4 84" bed Metal lathes that did a bulk of the work. The only CNC machine he had was a small desktop machine with the work bed the size of a notebook (8" x 11"). He only used it to cut inlays out of the ivory slabs and to cut the pockets for the inlays. All the tapering of the shafts and butts were done on the manual lathe.
When are you coming to Raleigh?
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Yes to both.JoeyInCali said:
Johnny Archer won Player of the Decade with a Schon made by Evan. What makes you think that Bob Runde makes anything superior to what Evan makes? That's like asking if Brandon Jacoby makes a better cue than David Jacoby. Or maybe Steve Janes makes a better cue than Danny. I don't see your point.JoeyInCali said:
JoeyInCali said:
i think you're getting the idea Joey.......little story: i had a guy at my local room trying to make a similar point about his cue. i told him to meet me there a couple days later and i would give him some food for thought. i showed up with a 3K piloted stainless Tascarella, a flat face Tascarella, 8K ivory piloted B. Szamboti, 2 5K and up Radial Josey's, my short phenolic piloted Josey, a 1982 Schon R-14, a ebony and coco SW, a Richard Black "Baron", a Manzino 6 pointer, a 7K Cognoscenti, a early 2000's Schon, and an 1970's fancy Josswest.......he told me i was wasting my time by showing me the cues because he had been playing too long to know it's not the cue it's the one playing with it. i said sure but wouldn't it be nice if those little things that bother you from time to time about your game you could figure out and correct. he said of course. i told him the right cue can possibly do that. i then spent 4 hours with him and let him shoot with all the cues i brought. not once did he switch back to his cue during the first 3 hours. after which he went back to his cue, played about 5 or 6 racks, and said he could tell the differences in the cues and could not believe he was playing with his cue for so long. he asked me where i'd been all his life?? he said with the exception of one of the cues i brought he could not believe there was that much difference in feel with these other cues. he especially liked the feel and looks of the Cog, Josey's, Szamboti, Tasca's, and Manzino and really wanted the Cog but when i told him how much it was he freaked. when i explained how all the work was done and why it cost so much, he understood and said if he had the money he would buy that cue right now. he then said he has to "get out" of his old cue and was there a deal i could make him for one of the cues. he told me he also loved how the Manzino played and i told him i would let it go for $1,400 (a steal for this cue) he told me to wait while he went to the bank and bought it right there on the spot!! i tell this story because out of all the cues there the one he definitely did not like was the early 2000's Schon. his exact words were " there's somethin' about that cue that will never be" i said "what?" he said "owned by me" and we both had a good laugh. this is in no way a slight to Schon cues from me, i know they do very good work, but just a view from another person who as well thought he knew "enough" about the playability of cues and the "food for thought" i brought to him that woke him up.
Poke N Hope said:
i'm hoping to make the move in december after this semester of school is over. you ever been to "on the snap" billiards in farquay varina? i think that's how you spell it...
To add something, almost every "custom" cue maker hates Evan at Schon. He doesn't belong to the ACA. He has been making cues longer than most of the "grandfathers" in the ACA. He does the volumes that they wish they did. He makes cues that stand up in the industry. Look at the sheer number of players playing with them. Good luck finding a flaw in them, and even better luck finding a "custom" cue in the same pricetag for the same number on inlays and cleanliness of execution. There have been more champions in the past 10 years that have played Schon than any of the other custom cue makers - COMBINED.