Danny Harriman (The Springfield kid)

[JAM]

I'm going to take the AzB Member's prerogative and enforce the Chatham House Rule for the remainder of this thread.

Edited for the Discussion Forum as follows:

"When a thread, or post thereof, is held under the Chatham House Rule, posters are free to use the information received, but neither the identity nor the affiliation of the poster(s), nor that of any other participant, may be revealed."

Forfeits aren't well received by most, the player or the spectator, and especially a Calcutta-betting railbird. Johnny Archer got forfeited in Atlanta last year, even though he spoke to Scott Smith the TD en route who told him that he'd hold Johnny's spot for him. Cliff Joyner was Johnny's opponent and enforced the 15-minute grace period rule, much to Archer's regret. Bum deal for Johnny (IMO).

Pookie and Scott Frost got themselves in a never-ending match, an ahead game which lasted throughout the duration of the U.S. Open. Pookie, having been up all night at Q-Masters engaged in a game of high stakes with Frost, did make it to his match and competed with no sleep. Scott, on the other hand, was a no-show and suffered a forfeit. I guess he thought he'd make more money playing Pookie than competing in the Open at that time. For some players, it's all about the money and not about a title or a tin cup.

Keith was playing at Diamond Billiards in Lancaster, PA, several years ago, and was on the winners' side. He asked the room owner and TD what time his next match would be, so that he could go back to the hotel [right next door to the pool room, BTW]. The reality was that I had some clothes in the washer at the hotel and I wanted to get them in the dryer ASAP. The TD told us both that Keith had "well over an hour" until his next match. We returned 45 minutes later on the dot, and Keith was told he was forfeited. The TD had a sudden loss of memory and said he did not remember saying Keith had "well over an hour," even though I remembered it VERBATIM. So Keith played in the losers' bracket and lost quickly to Tommy Kay, who still boasts about that win to this day. IMO, Keith played horribly and it was because he was still angry over the TD's loss of memory, whether intentinoal or unintentional.

The occupational hazards are tremendous for pool players. Eating on the road and getting food poisoning is a common occurrence, but the anger factor is a hard one to overcome. There is a strong school of thought that players should put on their best performance at all times for the paying spectators, but I just want to throw out there that it ain't as easy as it seems, bringing your best game to the table and wearing a smile. In the scheme of things, the pool players are at the bottom rung of the ladder when it comes to income. There at times when a player needs to look out for number one because nobody -- and I mean NOBODY -- else is!

JAM

 

[sizl]

That answer is as typical a pool player as they come. I've seen people sold in calcutta's that never even show up for the first day of the tourney.
Does anyone really wonder why this sport is so far in the toilet?

Not to mention everybody is trying to catch a straight flush(pun intended )

Poolplayers have helped bring our sport down, but poker is not helping it much

 

[JAM]

...Pool players have helped bring our sport down, but poker is not helping it much

Instead of looking at the pool players as bringing the sport down, maybe one should take a look at those holding the purse strings, the very same ones who use pool players like mere prostitutes, all the while they continue to stuff their pockets as the pool player lives below the poverty level.

It is pure GREED that has brought our sport down, my friend, not the pool player. The pool player is at the bottom of the heap of the food chain, fighting for table scraps, as the rich keep getting richer. Without quality players, there is no sport. Without a decent wage, the lot of quality professional players will continue to diminish.

The BCA Open has come and gone, a very distinctive title in the sport, one worthy of merit and recognition. $15,000 for first-place prize monies, it's a joke.

JAM

 

[jjinfla]

Fast Eddie forfeited in the COM and nobody seemed to care. And it is common knowledge that players drop out of tournaments, either by losing intentionally or just not showing up, so they can play for real on the gambling table.

If someone forfeits, and you bought him in the calcutta, then that's your tough luck, you lose. No one twisted your arm to buy him.

What? You think pool is an honest game?

Jake

 

[sizl]

Instead of looking at the pool players as bringing the sport down, maybe one should take a look at those holding the purse strings, the very same ones who use pool players like mere prostitutes, all the while they continue to stuff their pockets as the pool player lives below the poverty level.

It is pure GREED that has brought our sport down, my friend, not the pool player. The pool player is at the bottom of the heap of the food chain, fighting for table scraps, as the rich keep getting richer. Without quality players, there is no sport. Without a decent wage, the lot of quality professional players will continue to diminish.

The BCA Open has come and gone, a very distinctive title in the sport, one worthy of merit and recognition. $15,000 for first-place prize monies, it's a joke.

JAM

You took that totally out of context JAM. The keyword in my statement was "helped". I am not trying to tarnish anyone, I am just stating the facts. Their have been instances over the years, by players not vendors, supporters or sponsors that have tarnished the game. That being said their have also been instances over the years by "suits" that have also tarnished the game.

I surely did not mean to rub you the wrong way JAM, I love you and Keith. I am a player and I am pulling for the game to takeoff, unfortunately I have been waiting for 20 years. I know your take on people degrading players on public forums, I was not singling out anyone in particular. You can "sugarcoat" it anyway you like, but the bottom line is the actions of a few poolplayers have tarnished the game for some. And when the "suits" started getting their sticky hands in the pot, it was just a staggering blow to the sport. One can just hope it recovers.

We are all different and we think different. But we do agree on one thing JAM, it all boils down to GREED!

This is not negativity, just reality. Unfortunately

 

[Rickw]

Instead of looking at the pool players as bringing the sport down, maybe one should take a look at those holding the purse strings, the very same ones who use pool players like mere prostitutes, all the while they continue to stuff their pockets as the pool player lives below the poverty level.
JAM

Jam,

I'm not an insider like you are so this is more of a question from me, not a statement of fact. It's my impression, and tell me if I'm wrong, that there isn't any money in pool for anyone, i.e., the promoters, TDs, players, or anyone else affiliated with the sport. You say the ones holding the purse strings, who are they? We had that long debate between a room owner and a tournament promoter and it didn't sound like either one was making a lot of money.

 

[StoneCold]

Instead of looking at the pool players as bringing the sport down, maybe one should take a look at those holding the purse strings, the very same ones who use pool players like mere prostitutes, all the while they continue to stuff their pockets as the pool player lives below the poverty level.

It is pure GREED that has brought our sport down, my friend, not the pool player. The pool player is at the bottom of the heap of the food chain, fighting for table scraps, as the rich keep getting richer. Without quality players, there is no sport. Without a decent wage, the lot of quality professional players will continue to diminish.

The BCA Open has come and gone, a very distinctive title in the sport, one worthy of merit and recognition. $15,000 for first-place prize monies, it's a joke.

15,000 for the U.S. Open is a joke, I agree. You know what else is a joke.....How about getting dumped for a meager 200, 300, even 1,000. I haven't been around that long but all I hear about is how good the action used to be. Hmmmm. You think the pool player is at the bottom of the chain, how do you think they got there?

 

[onepocketchump]

This is why calcuttas at tournaments are stupid. When the fans are financially involved in the outcome then the players are expected to be responsible for the fan's money as well? What if Danny had shown up with a stomach virus and lost 9:0 in ten minutes? Would the guy who bet on him feel any better about it?

For that matter, since the players have no financial reward from the calcutta why should they care one iota about what happens to those who bet on them. Other than possibly being offered to buy half the bet they aren't guaranteed any part of the total calcutta money. The person who runs the calcutta makes guaranteed money off the skim but the players get nothing unless they participate. It's a ridiculous situation to put the players in and is the cause of more than one instance of cutting up the money.

You don't see public calcuttas at pro tennis tournaments or golf tournaments so why should they be allowed at professional pool tournaments?

Lastly, that's why they call it gambling. If you bet that's (BET) on a player's finish in a POOL TOURNAMENT then you are GAMBLING as ANYTHING can happen. Just like roulette, the lottery or any other form of GAMBLING it's pure chance.

I doubt that Danny or any other pro goes to a tournament with the intention of forfeiting any match. But it happens. When Serena (or Venus) Williams pulls out of a tournament due to an injury or for whatever reason do the fans get their money back? No, they don't. Why? Because there are 128 other WORLD CLASS pros there to see.

Just my opinion, as one who has won and lost in plenty of calcuttas.

John

 

[Razor_Blade]

Other than possibly being offered to buy half the bet they aren't guaranteed any part of the total calcutta money.

Around here if the player wants to buy half of himself back from the winning bidder, they are allowed to do so. They do not have to be asked. It may not be like that everywhere, but IMO it should.

 

[onepocketchump]

Around here if the player wants to buy half of himself back from the winning bidder, they are allowed to do so. They do not have to be asked. It may not be like that everywhere, but IMO it should.

That's my point. They shouldn't be put in that position. I have seen more than one player dump the tournament in order to promote another player who has a higher bid in the calcutta.

The best calcutta I have ever seen (where we won about 2 grand) was in South Dakota where they put the players into groups. You bid on groups and get paid when any of the players in that group finish high. Very fun and seemingly more fair than bidding on individual players.

John

 

[JAM]

You took that totally out of context JAM. The keyword in my statement was "helped". I am not trying to tarnish anyone, I am just stating the facts. Their have been instances over the years, by players not vendors, supporters or sponsors that have tarnished the game. That being said their have also been instances over the years by "suits" that have also tarnished the game....

I hear ya', Sizl! I did not believe you were trying to tarnish anyone, but the so-called "professional pool player," extinct as they are, continues to be for some the ultimate whipping post for the so-called "failure" of professional pool.

Take a look at the history of pool. I've been studying it for several years now, poring through every single pool periodical I can lay my hands on, as well as talking to those who were actually there. The "suits," Sizl, especially in Colorado, earn a very decent wage and have been for some time. While they are hobnobbing in Vegas sipping on their Don Perignon, there is a pool player somewhere in the country who is sleeping in his car, hoping to save a night's expense of lodging, and another one is leaving the sport because he can't make ends meet.

Let's take an American legend, Earl Strickland, as an example; a six-time world champion and five-time U.S. Open title holder. Earl represents 1 percent of the "professional" pool players," and he's one of the sponsored players, a rare breed indeed. Between expenses of flying to Taiwan or England or Germany or Canada or Vegas, do you think he's living high off the hog? I'd venture to guess that he's struggling just like the rest of the "professional" pool players. He doesn't have to sleep in his car, but he ain't laughing all the way to the bank either. The "suits" on the other hand have a weekly salary, thanks to the efforts of players just like Earl Strickland.

...I surely did not mean to rub you the wrong way JAM, I love you and Keith. I am a player and I am pulling for the game to takeoff, unfortunately I have been waiting for 20 years. I know your take on people degrading players on public forums, I was not singling out anyone in particular. You can "sugarcoat" it anyway you like, but the bottom line is the actions of a few poolplayers have tarnished the game for some. And when the "suits" started getting their sticky hands in the pot, it was just a staggering blow to the sport. One can just hope it recovers.

To date, I see most organizations, with the exception of the WPBA, as nothing more than "good-old-boy clubs." Rules are made to favor a select few, and all others can go to hell, as far as they're concerned.

Imagine being a pool player for your entire life since the age of 9, having endured the organizations that have come and gone, taking money right out of your pockets, money that was rightfully yours. A few decades later, a new organization pops up. You travel many miles to attend a tournament run by the brand-new organization, and the person running the show doesn't allow you to play pool in a tournament until you show proof of your identification, even though every single person in the pool world knows who you are. The shortstops get in the tournament with no questions asked. The lobsters are welcome because their entry fees built up the purse, but the lifelong player is not only shown disrespect, but he's faced with stop signs, rules created to target him personally, and a whole lot of inequities.

In the scheme of things, the "professional" pool player is in the minority. As evidenced by Danny Harriman expending the monies to travel cross country to attend events, as expensive as that is, he doesn't even get his due. Who is looking out for Danny's interests? Danny is looking out for his interests, and there isn't anything or anybody representing him. What advantage is there for Danny to be a so-called "professional"? Not one iota!

The BCA Open is an annual event which is enjoyed by many folks all over the world, reserved for 32 members of an organization in which the BCA granted sanctioning authority, foreign players from around the world, and 4 players who got in on a qualifier. I'm not sure how many people are employed at the BCA earning an annual salary, but $15,000 as a first-place purse pales in comparison to other sports. On some ESPN pool events, they do not even broadcast the amount of the purse because it is downright embarassing.

The pool players are at the bottom of the heap as far as earning a decent wage, but those who hold the purse strings have a bizarre way of cutting up the money. Everything is funny when you're winning big money, but it ain't the pool players who are laughing.

JAM

 

[JAM]

JAM, I'm not an insider like you are, so this is more of a question from me, not a statement of fact. It's my impression, and tell me if I'm wrong, that there isn't any money in pool for anyone, i.e., the promoters, TDs, players, or anyone else affiliated with the sport. You say the ones holding the purse strings. Who are they? We had that long debate between a room owner and a tournament promoter, and it didn't sound like either one was making a lot of money.

RickW, I'm more on the outside looking in, just like you. The independent promoters and regional TDs make things happen because of a deep passion for pool.

Take New York Champion -- yes, "Champion" -- Mike Zuglan as an example. When Mike was at the peak of his pool-shooting career, he faced the EXACT same obstacles which I am seeing today as it relates to "pool organizations," which were rules tailored for a select few, lack of sufficient funds needed to travel the pool circuit, and a barrage of inequities at various events. Mike was hitting 'em pretty strong, but he wasn't afforded as many opportunities as his peers, for a variety of reasons, to showcase his talent.

Zuglan knew he could play and he wanted to continue his pool journey in life, again, because of a deep passion for the sport. So he brainstormed with Dan Janes of Joss Cues, and the two of them created the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour, which I believe may be the oldest tour in existence, still going strong. Based on Mike's expertise as a player, he initiated a regional tour to occur on weekends, economical for the average Joe. Thanks to a rich pool culture in the New England area, pool room owners joined the Joss family and hosted events, where every pool player is treated equal, no matter if you are Johnny Archer or JAM, and you don't have to be a member of an organization to compete.

Events like the SBE and DCC are money-makers, but the reason is not because of professional pool. It is the leagues, social shooters, and bar bangers, which represent the MAJORITY of the money-spending pool public. Most pool room owners who do enjoy a lucrative business have a very strong league presence.

So, when you see the pro player unscrew a stick mid-match, there could be a variety of reasons. It is very revealing when young champions say they are leaving the sport because they are broke. Sometimes the sacrifices one needs to make to be all that you can be are self-destructive, and when reality kicks in, there is only one alternative. Thus, the lot of professional players is continuing to diminish. Without a product, there is nothing to sell. With nothing to sell, pool will remain the same as it's been for the last 30-plus years. In fact, it is a nightmare that has gotten worse (IMO).

JAM

 

[JAM]

15,000 for the U.S. Open is a joke, I agree. You know what else is a joke.....How about getting dumped for a meager 200, 300, even 1,000. I haven't been around that long but all I hear about is how good the action used to be. Hmmmm. You think the pool player is at the bottom of the chain, how do you think they got there?

This a proverbial chicken-and-the-egg question. For every pool player that dumped, there's a stakehorse somewhere else who couldn't figure out how to count.

If there was a legitimate platform for an aspiring pool player to showcase their skills set, one which provided an opportunity to excel financially and professionally, the action players would be playing pool competitively to win that big money. As we all know, there ain't no big money in professional pool, except for a very select few who hold the purse strings and make up the rules.

To date, there is more money to be made in games of stakes than there is in tournament play, which is why some players choose to gamble their funds, but if you think dumping, cheating, and stealing only happens in pool, take a ride on the poker circuit.

JAM

 

[sizl]

I
The "suits" on the other hand have a weekly salary, thanks to the efforts of players just like Earl Strickland.


JAM

This is probably one of the best quotes to really open ones eyes. The player on the grind is having to struggle to get to tournaments and then not guaranteed a quarter. Contrary, the "suits" jet-set around the country with a guaranteed check wating on them. And most of them got there riding on the coat tails of the "JOE POOLPLAYER"! IMHO

JAM I respect you tremendously and if more people had your knowledge about the status of the game, POOL might actually have a chance.

 

[landshark77]

$15,000 for first-place prize monies, it's a joke.

Ok...I know I am going to get blasted for this, but I'm gonna say it anyway. First, I do not make my living from playing pool. Second, I realize that pool, the sport, does not even touch other sports...golf, baseball, football, etc... when it comes to pay outs. However, I compare pool to real life...not the life of Michael Jordan. $15,000 is MORE than half of what I make in a year working 40 plus hours a week with a college degree. To be able to make that in a week is awesome, IMO. Granted, you have to fight to get it....but even if 1st place paid out One Million you would still have to fight for it, thus winning.

OK guys, I have my target on....blast me.

 

[JDB]

The problem is....

Ok...I know I am going to get blasted for this, but I'm gonna say it anyway. First, I do not make my living from playing pool. Second, I realize that pool, the sport, does not even touch other sports...golf, baseball, football, etc... when it comes to pay outs. However, I compare pool to real life...not the life of Michael Jordan. $15,000 is MORE than half of what I make in a year working 40 plus hours a week with a college degree. To be able to make that in a week is awesome, IMO. Granted, you have to fight to get it....but even if 1st place paid out One Million you would still have to fight for it, thus winning.

OK guys, I have my target on....blast me.

The problem is that even the 1st place prize of $15K is a once a year event. Add in the Open, WPC and the DCC, they are about the only opportunities to earn even close to that type of money... Then you have to figure that there are at least 50 players in that tournament that can win it. The odds of winning more than one of those tournaments is statistically improbable. Then add in the traveling expenses.

And these players are the best of the best in their chosen profession. If you aren't the best, have a bad day, etc, you make pretty much nothing...

I think that is the point...

 

[Danny Harriman]

Mike

Well Mike it is funny that you bring up the one tournament that I did forfeit in you must be good buddy's with Brady, I do however remember the year in the open I was playing Reid Pierce and he is a great player but very slow also. The match was close and the Ref. (Pat Fleming) came over and put our match on a shot clock, it was hill hill when I broke and was hooked, I asked for a extension and Pat said there were no more extensions. I may have remembered this when I came back the next year as if I could have had a little more time maybe I would have won, which would have sent me to the quarter finals instead Reid won the tournament and I'm glad he did it was almost like they wanted him to win at the end. In any case it seemed like the wrong time to be telling ugly stories about me even if that one is true, all I'm TRYING to do is get paid and it's people like you that do not understand. I'm sure your one of those who would rather watch a WPBA event, thats fine I am glad to see the women doing so well their org. is much more structured than ours also. I think there is alot of irony going on here don't you? When your gambling on a match you as a sweater have NO CONTROL of the match or what your horse will do. Now take me as a player I too have NO CONTROL over whether I will even get paid, so you see we both know what it is like to have no protection, and last but not least I apolagize about your friend losing his $ but I do not agree with calcutas anyway it is a mixture of gambling and tournaments which has proven to me at least to make for poor tournament conditions. Here is my tip to you - Do not criticise a fellow for doing what is right and you'll be alright
(Springfield Danny)

 

[cueball1950]

Well Mike it is funny that you bring up the one tournament that I did forfeit in you must be good buddy's with Brady, I do however remember the year in the open I was playing Reid Pierce and he is a great player but very slow also. The match was close and the Ref. (Pat Fleming) came over and put our match on a shot clock, it was hill hill when I broke and was hooked, I asked for a extension and Pat said there were no more extensions. I may have remembered this when I came back the next year as if I could have had a little more time maybe I would have won, which would have sent me to the quarter finals instead Reid won the tournament and I'm glad he did it was almost like they wanted him to win at the end. In any case it seemed like the wrong time to be telling ugly stories about me even if that one is true, all I'm TRYING to do is get paid and it's people like you that do not understand. I'm sure your one of those who would rather watch a WPBA event, thats fine I am glad to see the women doing so well their org. is much more structured than ours also. I think there is alot of irony going on here don't you? When your gambling on a match you as a sweater have NO CONTROL of the match or what your horse will do. Now take me as a player I too have NO CONTROL over whether I will even get paid, so you see we both know what it is like to have no protection, and last but not least I apolagize about your friend losing his $ but I do not agree with calcutas anyway it is a mixture of gambling and tournaments which has proven to me at least to make for poor tournament conditions. Here is my tip to you - Do not criticise a fellow for doing what is right and you'll be alright
(Springfield Danny)

Danny, you are not even close. I am a big fan of the men's tour. I am also a big fan of yours, believe it or not. The problem i see with the mens tour is that Charlie Williams, when he started the UPA he wanted full control of it all. The pro's did not learn their lesson with Don mackey. You cannot have 1 person in charge. I once asked Allan Hopkins while in NYC for the last 14.1 tournament thaqt Blatt Billiards put on what happened to the men's tour. his answer was very simple. "they self destructed" i think that says it all. I have been a big fan of the men's tour all my life. Ask Mike Zuglan, i attnd alot of his tour stops and promote pool when ever i can. I have been to over 15 U.S. Opens. When i started going to the OPEN it was being held at the Lake Wright Hotel..And yes i am friends with brady and only know his father. I do not agree at all with what happened with Brady and his dissapointing showing at the tournament. But i do have to give him some type of credit for atleast trying. I have to believe in my heart of hearts that he will make this good to everybody that is owed. the only reason i would watch a women's match is that it is the only thing on TV. And personally, other than the BCA being on TV. I don't think a mens tour won't survive. Most male pro players, in my opinion, cannot afford, or make a living at pool. therefore they go where the money is. they have to, to pay the bills. After all that is what it is all about. But unless someone who has a ton of money and don't care about it and funds a REAL tour, Mens pool has no chance of getting out of the dark ages. well i have said enough..come to the open in sept. danny. you will be missed by all if not....................................................mike

 

[cueball1950]

Hi Jam

Zuglan knew he could play and he wanted to continue his pool journey in life, again, because of a deep passion for the sport. So he brainstormed with Dan Janes of Joss Cues, and the two of them created the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour, which I believe may be the oldest tour in existence, still going strong. Based on Mike's expertise as a player, he initiated a regional tour to occur on weekends, economical for the average Joe. Thanks to a rich pool culture in the New England area, pool room owners joined the Joss family and hosted .


Hi jam. i believe that there needs to be some small corrections...lol
Yes, Mike did start the Joss Northeast tour. there used to be another tour called something like the New England tour or something like that. when it folded i asked mike what he was going to do. he told me.."START MY OWN". i honestly thought he was kidding around. so basically he, rebuilt and made the tour and renamed it.
[and you don't have to be a member of an organization to compete.]

you do have to be a Joss Tour member to be able to play. or you can just pay a small fee ($15.00) to play 1 tournament. But what the heck. spectators see it all for free. Even the big one's at Turning Stone casino are free............................................mike

 

[Danny Harriman]

Hello Bob and Eydie

I appreciate the warm welcome, even though some of my post were not all positive I believe that there are some good fans out there, some of which look on this forum from time to " ". I am new with computers and frankly felt like I accomplished alot by even being able to post a thread, I would like to be apart of the ask the pros if there were ever a spot open as I teach pool lessons a little myself.
Thanks,
'Little' Danny Harriman