Decelerating

1st of all there was no mention of short bridge length in your 1st post.
Secondly, where in my post did I say that I realize that a full length backstroke provides solid acceleration, etc, etc. Because I don't.
What I did question, and Fran indicates is that it's possible that he didn't decelerate but simply wasn't aware that extra speed was needed because of the characteristics of this particular shot.
He did indicate in his post that he thinks he has a problem with deceleration on many shots. If that's the case then I'd suggest he look elsewhere than his bridge or stroke length. It could possibly be caused by improper placement of his grip hand but a more likely reason is a degree of uncertainty or fear right at the moment of his last forward stroke. You can pull your stroke and decelerate whether your final stroke is 2", 2' or anywhere in between.
In my experience it's almost always a lack of belief in what you're doing that causes decelerating.

1) I didn't need to say "short bridge" because what I wrote is correct, full backstrokes help with smooth acceleration at any bridge length. The worst that would happen if the OP is using too long a bridge is he would send the cue ball too far instead of short, and then figure out how to adjust bridge length but not stroke length (all the way back to the fingers) providing an automatic speed tool for many shots.

2) You said "To say that it's necessary to go all the way back to your bridge hand in order to execute a proper pool stroke is absurd," which is not what I said, I was simply suggesting a tip for smooth acceleration. I find the emphasis on acceleration combined with short backstrokes is a recipe for a stroke that is too muscled/jabbing for many shots.

3) Your comment regarding a hard open break stroke and comments in this recent post shows that you surely do recognize that full backstrokes provide speed/power/acceleration. You understand different strokes and suggested, correctly, that one would recommend all the way back to the fingers when attempting to smoothly accelerate for a Ten Ball break.

4) Yes, it is possible that our OP didn't decelerate and the spin and angle provided an illusion. I appreciate that post.

5) I understand that in your experience, commitment and belief are required for smooth acceleration. In my experience, numerous students who jabbed and poked at the ball with overlong bridges instantly achieved smooth acceleration with shorter bridges as I encouraged them and gave them feedback on full backstrokes. I find with students that it takes under two minutes to smooth our their stroke in this way, where belief and commitment can take a long time, for simple reasons:

a) It sounds like you have "touch", that is, you can vary your length of backstroke while keeping control of the cb, but many amateurs cannot.

b) It's easier for most students to be like robots by presetting their bridge length then smoothly stroking all the way back, than it is to preset a speed or force amount in their mind and backstroke more randomly. When I watch amateurs play, I see them take overlong IMHO bridges and then backstroke halfway, a quarter of the way, sometimes all the way back--I see this in most students to be honest. Watching even a 7 or 8 APA player take three strokes in a row in league, it's likely that they use the same length bridge every time but a different length backstroke, forcing them to guess going forward, and it gets ugly. Again, it sounds like you have mastery here and don't have this problem--remember, not all students are strong, a lot come for lessons with serious problems!

c) The bridge of the hand is the natural fulcrum to apply leverage through the stroke, I feel it is compromised with inconsistent lengths of backstroke. Again, you may be more disciplined--it sounds like you are--and you can see pros take really, really long bridges, stroke back an inch or two and come through beautifully, but . . .

Therefore, I recommend you try this experiment, after which I will recognize and welcome further criticism from you on this--that is, do these strokes then tell me I'm wrong (or right), and we can discuss more if you wish:

1) Set up shots with different length bridges, say, 3 inches, 5, 7, 9 and 11-inch bridges.

2) Commit to taking smooth, relaxed backstrokes, to bring the ferrule all the way back to your loop or fingers, including on any and all practice strokes. Be consistent. Have a friend watch and you'll likely see you take shorter backstrokes than you think.

3) See how the acceleration is smooth and provides outstanding cb action, particularly with a gentle, relaxed cue grip and a full backstroke.

4) Finally, using these same lengthy backstrokes, decelerate on your forward strokes, than report back as to how much effort, mental and physical, was required.

In other words, as I wrote originally, it's challenging to decelerate with a full relaxed backstroke to the fingers--at any bridge length. I'd rather hit a safety with a one-bridge and full backstroke than lay down some 16-inch backstroke and apply touch--the bridge hand is the stable platform for speed control--indeed, try some of those also:

1) Set up a nurse safety, you know the kind, where the cue ball is a fraction of an inch off an 8- or 9-ball which is itself sitting a fraction of an inch off the rail or on the rail itself.

2) Shoot the shot three times with a really long bridge and a really short backstroke, applying feel and touch from the stroke hand. Hard to work that little ferrule and tip so far out, yes?

3) Shoot the shot three times with a one-inch or even a half-inch bridge, and a smooth, NOT slow, backstroke all the way back. Indeed, one can take a fast backstroke half an inch back and will still come through softly.

4) Consider which of those bridges helped leave the cue ball dead safe, basically where it was when you were the incoming shooter.

I apologize for my length here, but this is a sort of thing I teach in lessons, and I feel more explanations are sometimes needed when someone coaches from their experience and skill--as you did--I'm fine with that--however, my experience comes from walking over 100 students through exactly these scenarios and shots.

There's more tips I'd like to give here for free after you try these shots.

Thanks!
 
I'll pass on your experiment. Dr. Cue may want to try it and report back on whether it helps him.
IMO my 1st post tells him what he needs to know about the shot he diagrammed.
Your solution to speed control seems to be constantly varying bridge length for different speeds. Speed control is more of a "feel" thing, just like english is. You're probably also in the 1/2 or 1 or 1and 1/2 tip of right should be used on a particular shot camp. Good luck with that. I'm out.
 
I'll pass on your experiment. Dr. Cue may want to try it and report back on whether it helps him.
IMO my 1st post tells him what he needs to know about the shot he diagrammed.
Your solution to speed control seems to be constantly varying bridge length for different speeds. Speed control is more of a "feel" thing, just like english is. You're probably also in the 1/2 or 1 or 1and 1/2 tip of right should be used on a particular shot camp. Good luck with that. I'm out.

Thanks for asking. I'm not in the 1/2 tip camp at all and I use feel for english. However, using numbered tips makes for an easy reference when diagramming shots/discussing between players.

I believe I know why you're passing on my experiment, Sparkle--you don't need to experiment and control speed by grip and feel and etc. But I can tell you it is helped, without exception, every student I've shown it to. We're talking about:

Presetting Bridge Length + Stroke Back To Fingers Consistently = Smooth Stroke, Automated Speed

. . . freeing concentration on other aspects of shot making and position.

If anyone else wants to experiment:

1) Set an ob nearby a corner pocket at a fairly thick cut angle, the cb about a foot from the ob.

2) Shooting center ball with a 3-inch bridge as described keeps the cb on that section of the table, a 5-inch bridge brings the cb to near the table's middle, 7-inch bridge to the other end of the table.

You can see the light go on as players not as strong as Sparkle instantly improve their 8- and 9-ball position. Some of the all-time great played with mostly 7-inch bridges and not the super-long bridges in use today.
 
BINGO!!!!!

On so many of my shots.

r/DCP

. . . And, now you have a choice, take random length backstrokes and hope you can mentally assert a smooth, accelerating forward stroke, or try my experiment and report back on the results. (Insanity, of course, being doing what one always does and hoping for more consistent results.)

Because I've trained myself in smooth acceleration using the very method I've outlined, I can go across the table using a 3-inch or less and not a 7-inch bridge. My method will give you the power and confidence you seek, and I'd be happy to do a free lesson for you also.
 
Not always. In this particular shot I wouldn't. I typically only do that when tight position is needed.

I'm not criticizing here but I need to tell you that this statement displays wrong thinking. Tight position is always needed. I don't care what your level is, if you strive for the best possible position on every shot then your position will improve even if you change nothing else.
Take a look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8Dko09FPn0
This guy also has a great deal of info on the mental aspect of pool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11WaSq48rKk is good along with many others.
You've probably already seen his stuff but if not then check it out.
However, there's something that needs to be said about confidence. Many people will say you need to remain confident. While true, at times it's a rather short sighted declaration. Confidence is derived from doing something and succeeding at what you did over and over. When that happens it's very easy to be confident when a similar situation arises. On the other hand, when faced with a scenario where you've failed most times, remaining confident isn't likely to help much.
So to develop confidence you need to gain knowledge and be very dedicated to improvement. Most people just don't have the desire which is touched on in that 1st video. Years ago, acquiring knowledge was difficult. Nowadays it's fairly easy. Dr Daves website has all you need to know about the way the balls work.
Judging by a lot of the questions you ask on here, that might be the place to start.
When I work with someone I go to great lengths to educate them on the way the balls work. If you have a thorough knowledge in that area, many of the questions youve been asking you'll be able to answer yourself.
 
If anyone else wants to experiment:

1) Set an ob nearby a corner pocket at a fairly thick cut angle, the cb about a foot from the ob.

2) Shooting center ball with a 3-inch bridge as described keeps the cb on that section of the table, a 5-inch bridge brings the cb to near the table's middle, 7-inch bridge to the other end of the table.

Not buying this. Not with a fairly thick hit.

With a half ball hit, then yes.
 
BINGO!!!!!

On so many of my shots.

r/DCP

But then why ask about just one shot in particular? You all need to learn how to ask a question. First figure out what it is you really want to know, then maybe you'll get an answer that will help you.

I'm not going to answer any more questions until the actual question is clear. This is ridiculous.
 
But then why ask about just one shot in particular? You all need to learn how to ask a question. First figure out what it is you really want to know, then maybe you'll get an answer that will help you.

I'm not going to answer any more questions until the actual question is clear. This is ridiculous.

Maybe I really didn't know what to ask???

Maybe Sparkle84 opened the door for me?
 
Maybe I really didn't know what to ask???

Maybe Sparkle84 opened the door for me?

Baloney.

What you did was a fishing expedition --- and this fish ain't gonna bite the bait anymore.

All it takes is to do a little work --- get a little introspective and figure out what it is you want to ask. I'll be happy to jump in with an opinion along with the group, but posters like you have to learn to do your part as well --- and quit jumping in with the first question that runs through your head. It's not fair to the rest of us who sincerely want to help.

And while I'm on a rant --- that also goes for all the people who answer questions here. Take a little time to think before you write. The original question isn't going away. THINK FIRST. You have time to answer.

And here's a novel idea: If you're not sure what the op is asking, then ask for a clarification.

I saw some answers that were absolutely incredible! And I don't mean it in a good way.

And guess what --- if you don't have a clue, then DON'T TRY TO ANSWER THE QUESTION. Yes, it's fun to try to answer, but for crying out loud, think of all the people who may take you seriously. Do you want to take responsibility for setting their game back months or even years?

That's why teaching certifications have meaning. At least we take responsibility for what we say. We have to. For the rest of you --- it's the wild west out there.

Sheesh.
 
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Think of 2 tables end to end... the table you're playing and an imaginary table touching.
Hit the CB at a speed to send it to your wanted shape on center of the imaginary table.

The CB will hit your end rail and "should" rebound the right distance for shape on the 6.

___________________
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Baloney.

What you did was a fishing expedition --- and this fish ain't gonna bite the bait anymore.

All it takes is to do a little work --- get a little introspective and figure out what it is you want to ask. I'll be happy to jump in with an opinion along with the group, but posters like you have to learn to do your part as well --- and quit jumping in with the first question that runs through your head. It's not fair to the rest of us who sincerely want to help.

And while I'm on a rant --- that also goes for all the people who answer questions here. Take a little time to think before you write. The original question isn't going away. THINK FIRST. You have time to answer.

And here's a novel idea: If you're not sure what the op is asking, then ask for a clarification.

I saw some answers that were absolutely incredible! And I don't mean it in a good way.

And guess what --- if you don't have a clue, then DON'T TRY TO ANSWER THE QUESTION. Yes, it's fun to try to answer, but for crying out loud, think of all the people who may take you seriously. Do you want to take responsibility for setting their game back months or even years?

That's why teaching certifications have meaning. At least we take responsibility for what we say. We have to. For the rest of you --- it's the wild west out there.

Sheesh.

Fran... Hope that wasn't me.

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Fran... Hope that wasn't me.

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If the op isn't clear on what he wants to know, then you may as well tell him to imagine 4 table lengths. It wouldn't matter.

And let's say he really was asking about that particular shot, which we all found out later, wasn't really the case. Then I think your answer was wacky. But as wacky as yours was, it wasn't as wacky as some of the other stuff posted here. There are legitimate diamond systems that use an imaginary table, but it's unnecessary to imagine one for the purpose of the shot he described.

Reverse English is hard to master because the cue ball slows down and it often surprises the player, especially an amateur. But the amount it slows down varies a lot, depending on the shot and what the player is trying to accomplish. The only way to learn it is shot by shot, setting up each shot and shooting it over and over. There is no formula for these types of shots. You can't generalize.

But none of what I just wrote matters in this particular thread because the op sent us all sailing on the ocean in a row boat.
 
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The image from the original post.... https://pad-v1.chalkysticks.com/851fa.png
If the op isn't clear on what he wants to know, then you may as well tell him to imagine 4 table lengths. It wouldn't matter.

And let's say he really was asking about that particular shot, which we all found out later, wasn't really the case. Then I think your answer was wacky. But as wacky as yours was, it wasn't as wacky as some of the other stuff posted here. There are legitimate diamond systems that use an imaginary table, but it's unnecessary to imagine one for the purpose of the shot he described.

Reverse English is hard to master because the cue ball slows down and it often surprises the player, especially an amateur and REALLY especially -- a beginner. But the amount it slows down varies a lot, depending on the shot. The only way to learn it is shot by shot, setting up each shot and shooting it over and over. There is no formula for these types of shots. You can't generalize.

But none of what I just wrote matters in this particular thread because the op sent us all sailing on the ocean in a row boat.

Fran...
Looking at the image above.. from the original post.. My reply wasn't wacky.

The CB in this case would have natural roll, not forward spin. Why would it
come off the rail with a lot of reverse spin? The speeds to get to table center
should be easily judged playing center imaginary table in this particular shot.

A mirrored imaginary table is a good distance judgement for any rolling CB.
Again IMO.... Carl

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The image from the original post.... https://pad-v1.chalkysticks.com/851fa.png


Fran...
Looking at the image above.. from the original post.. My reply wasn't wacky.

The CB in this case would have natural roll, not forward spin. Why would it
come off the rail with a lot of reverse spin? The speeds to get to table center
should be easily judged playing center imaginary table in this particular shot.

A mirrored imaginary table is a good distance judgement for any rolling CB.
Again IMO.... Carl

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Normally I'm a bit of a contrarian and usually disagree more than agree. Here however, I'm solidly in Fran's camp.
People are constantly displaying their ignorance about the way the balls work and being way too simplistic in their analysis of particular situations.
Maybe I'm overly critical at times but I'm trying to give correct information and not mislead people which is detrimental to improvement as Fran so aptly pointed out.
Your above statement is a misrepresentation of what's happening.
The "reverse" you're referring to is not the reverse she's talking about. It's not about the CB going into the rail with topspin and thus, slowing down coming off, it's about the CB going into the rail with right english but because the natural path of of the CB is going left and when it hits the rail it has to fight to go the other way and consequently, slows down. As I said in another post, the dotted line in his diagram is incorrect. The CB's path to the short rail is quite a bit to the left of what he shows. Just look at the tangent line, it should be obvious.
Whenever the CB is struck with side english opposite the natural direction of the ball then it will slow down after contacting a rail. That's the way the balls work.
Now most likely a lot of the people viewing this were well aware of what she was talking about but some weren't and your post might have caused them some confusion and they'd have gone away uncertain about the correct path here.
For those people, what happens on this shot is that it should be hit firmly with middle right. Why middle? Because you want maximum english on this shot. If you look at the tangent line the CB will strike the short rail slightly to the left of the 1st diamond.
The natural path is to the left between the 9 and 7. We want it to go straight up table and that requires a lot of right.
Top right would not help. At the speed this shot needs to be hit it's not possible to alter the CB path to the rail. It will contact the same spot with middle or top regardless. Top is unwanted here because it limits the right side english.
Note: On new cloth, forget this shot. The CB won't grab enough that it comes back. Best to hit bottom left and go 2 rails around the 7.
Why not just play it that way in the 1st place? 2 reasons. You might hit the 7 and you'd be crossing the position zone for the 6 as opposed to going thru it.
Hope I didn't offend anyone. I appreciate everyones imput here. If not for Fran and Ralph's posts I wouldn't have gone into the detail I did which hopefully helped someone.
 
Normally I'm a bit of a contrarian and usually disagree more than agree. Here however, I'm solidly in Fran's camp.
People are constantly displaying their ignorance about the way the balls work and being way too simplistic in their analysis of particular situations.
Maybe I'm overly critical at times but I'm trying to give correct information and not mislead people which is detrimental to improvement as Fran so aptly pointed out.
Your above statement is a misrepresentation of what's happening.
The "reverse" you're referring to is not the reverse she's talking about. It's not about the CB going into the rail with topspin and thus, slowing down coming off, it's about the CB going into the rail with right english but because the natural path of of the CB is going left and when it hits the rail it has to fight to go the other way and consequently, slows down. As I said in another post, the dotted line in his diagram is incorrect. The CB's path to the short rail is quite a bit to the left of what he shows. Just look at the tangent line, it should be obvious.
Whenever the CB is struck with side english opposite the natural direction of the ball then it will slow down after contacting a rail. That's the way the balls work.
Now most likely a lot of the people viewing this were well aware of what she was talking about but some weren't and your post might have caused them some confusion and they'd have gone away uncertain about the correct path here.
For those people, what happens on this shot is that it should be hit firmly with middle right. Why middle? Because you want maximum english on this shot. If you look at the tangent line the CB will strike the short rail slightly to the left of the 1st diamond.
The natural path is to the left between the 9 and 7. We want it to go straight up table and that requires a lot of right.
Top right would not help. At the speed this shot needs to be hit it's not possible to alter the CB path to the rail. It will contact the same spot with middle or top regardless. Top is unwanted here because it limits the right side english.
Note: On new cloth, forget this shot. The CB won't grab enough that it comes back. Best to hit bottom left and go 2 rails around the 7.
Why not just play it that way in the 1st place? 2 reasons. You might hit the 7 and you'd be crossing the position zone for the 6 as opposed to going thru it.
Hope I didn't offend anyone. I appreciate everyones imput here. If not for Fran and Ralph's posts I wouldn't have gone into the detail I did which hopefully helped someone.

Great post and I appreciate the clarification. (I even said in an earlier post that the cb was fighting the natural angle of the shot.)
 
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The image from the original post.... https://pad-v1.chalkysticks.com/851fa.png
Normally I'm a bit of a contrarian and usually disagree more than agree. Here however, I'm solidly in Fran's camp.
People are constantly displaying their ignorance about the way the balls work and being way too simplistic in their analysis of particular situations.
Maybe I'm overly critical at times but I'm trying to give correct information and not mislead people which is detrimental to improvement as Fran so aptly pointed out.
Your above statement is a misrepresentation of what's happening.
The "reverse" you're referring to is not the reverse she's talking about. It's not about the CB going into the rail with topspin and thus, slowing down coming off, it's about the CB going into the rail with right english but because the natural path of of the CB is going left and when it hits the rail it has to fight to go the other way and consequently, slows down. As I said in another post, the dotted line in his diagram is incorrect. The CB's path to the short rail is quite a bit to the left of what he shows. Just look at the tangent line, it should be obvious.
Whenever the CB is struck with side english opposite the natural direction of the ball then it will slow down after contacting a rail. That's the way the balls work.
Now most likely a lot of the people viewing this were well aware of what she was talking about but some weren't and your post might have caused them some confusion and they'd have gone away uncertain about the correct path here.
For those people, what happens on this shot is that it should be hit firmly with middle right. Why middle? Because you want MAXIMUM english on this shot. If you look at the tangent line the CB will strike the short rail slightly to the left of the 1st diamond.
The natural path is to the left between the 9 and 7. We want it to go straight up table and that requires a lot of right.
Top right would not help. At the speed this shot needs to be hit it's not possible to alter the CB path to the rail. It will contact the same spot with middle or top regardless. Top is unwanted here because it limits the right side english.
Note: On new cloth, forget this shot. The CB won't grab enough that it comes back. Best to hit bottom left and go 2 rails around the 7.
Why not just play it that way in the 1st place? 2 reasons. You might hit the 7 and you'd be crossing the position zone for the 6 as opposed to going thru it.
Hope I didn't offend anyone. I appreciate everyones imput here. If not for Fran and Ralph's posts I wouldn't have gone into the detail I did which hopefully helped someone.


I think you'd better look at that image again. The measles ball is the CB. The white ball is where the CB ended up after rebounding off the rail.
The measles ball can't follow the tangent line unless sliding upon contact with the 5. The natural rolling CB should rebound straight off the rail.
A rolling CB in this situation is a natural shot. Hitting middle CB with maximum right english deflects the CB and it fights natural CB roll.

EDIT :
SPARKIE
... I set up the balls as in the image and I tried 10 shots your way.... and 10 my way. When you mentioned the
tangent line, I thought you were sending your CB down the stun line, and I now realize you weren't doing that.

All 20 shots worked... although your way actually came down table nearer to the rail than my way. My "rolling CB" did
need some top right to get to center table, but may be preferable if the CB needs more angle off a rail for shape
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I think you'd better look at that image again. The measles ball is the CB. The white ball is where the CB ended up after rebounding off the rail.

You got it Ralph!

And i'm not sure why I am being attacked here. I have a problem with decelerating and thought I would use this particular shot to see if anybody could figure out why and/or offer some suggestions.

Sparkle84 sort of opened my eyes when he mentioned uncertainty just as I pulled the trigger.

Then again, after 15 years of being attacked I should be used to it.

r/DCP
 
You got it Ralph!

And i'm not sure why I am being attacked here. I have a problem with decelerating and thought I would use this particular shot to see if anybody could figure out why and/or offer some suggestions.

Sparkle84 sort of opened my eyes when he mentioned uncertainty just as I pulled the trigger.

Then again, after 15 years of being attacked I should be used to it.

r/DCP
DrCue... I tried that shot 20 times from the measle ball position in your image.. 10 rolling and 10 with maximum inside spin.
The rolling CB does require a touch of right spin to get to center table. With maximum inside the CB comes back straighter.

With inside spin speed control becomes an issue (your problem from post #1). Also rebounding CB direction is problematic.
With max inside, I actually hit the 6 ball with the rebounding CB 3 times out of 10 tries. Try it for yourself as Fran suggested.

Coming up short on the 6, or hitting your 6 with the rebounding CB, or the CB stopping near center table. It's your decision.

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