Having read R. Givens 8 Ball Bible, I have been attending to the development of my defensive play. It has made a significant contribution to my success rate. It also adds a rush of adrenalin. I would appreciate additional sources, comments, & suggestions on the subject.
Having read R. Givens 8 Ball Bible, I have been attending to the development of my defensive play. It has made a significant contribution to my success rate. It also adds a rush of adrenalin. I would appreciate additional sources, comments, & suggestions on the subject.
Yeah there is a line between when to know when to go for it and when to duck. I have seen some safeties get two rail kick banked in and ran out along with dogging of runouts when you get the chance.
A teammate and I have a league long run at most points accumulated during the BCA 9ball season along with win's losses. I am 34-14, he is 33-15 but he has 7 BNR/9BB whereas I only have 2. I play league games like playing a tourney match (good practice to do so), concentrate and play safeties when they are needed, get BIH and run out. My friend is of the mentality it is just league so go for the crazy shots...if he makes em he will probably get out. He will go for a 3rail bank, cross bank, long carom before playing safe. To me it is reckless and leads to him losing to better players (as he plays the same way versus them when he gets out of league play)...against weaker league players it is okay cause he'll probably get another shot.
Being a defensive player is an art and takes better cueball/object ball control than just running out racks. The best I have seen is married to The Queen. I have saw Mike Zimmerman play some of the wickedest safes. Alot of the time you are lucky to get a chance at a two rail kick, usually 3 and jacked up over a ball. Playing the perfect safe takes way more speed/spin control that just using running english and flying around the table to a general area for shape.
So instead of going for those shots I'll take the safe route which kills my BNR chances.
I looove playing defensive, especially in 8-ball. It frustrates the opponent and depending on the level you can set them up for an easy runout of your own.
It's a different way of reading the table. It takes a lot of speed control and quality use of natural angles and english. It's hard to explain how to make the read but try picturing a shot that you wouldn't want to take and try to give them that shot.
One thing that I do that hardly anyone I play against does is play safe with ball in hand. If there is a tough cluster almost everyone will try to pocket a ball with ball in hand and break the cluster open, even if it's a low percentage shot. Either they'll make the shot and not open the cluster, or they'll miss the shot and open the cluster anyway, leaving an easy out for me.
Below is a sequence I played against an A player in a game of 8 ball. He fouled giving me ball in hand. I knocked out my 2 ball and froze the cue ball to my 6, almost guarenteeing me bih again, which is what happened. I made sure I left the 2 ball in a spot that would leave me an easy runout. The only shot he had was to stretch across the table for a kick off the bottom rail and he miscued, giving me bih. From there I ran out. If I couldn't run out from there I would have done it to him again and told him he was on two. Either way was a sure win for me.
One thing that I do that hardly anyone I play against does is play safe with ball in hand. If there is a tough cluster almost everyone will try to pocket a ball with ball in hand and break the cluster open, even if it's a low percentage shot. Either they'll make the shot and not open the cluster, or they'll miss the shot and open the cluster anyway, leaving an easy out for me.
Below is a sequence I played against an A player in a game of 8 ball. He fouled giving me ball in hand. I knocked out my 2 ball and froze the cue ball to my 6, almost guarenteeing me bih again, which is what happened. I made sure I left the 2 ball in a spot that would leave me an easy runout. The only shot he had was to stretch across the table for a kick off the bottom rail and he miscued, giving me bih. From there I ran out. If I couldn't run out from there I would have done it to him again and told him he was on two. Either way was a sure win for me.
Thanks, my point exactly! Lots of players would try to pocket the 2 and knock the six out. Not a bad play if there's an insurance ball somewhere on the table. Without knowing for sure they're gonna get a good shot on the 6 ball after knocking it out, they're squandering a great opportunity of a sure win by playing this safe.
Depending on who you're playing(gotta make it fun when playing C level players) you can literally position your balls almost hanging around the table. Then you just wait for them to miss and you run out. The trick is leaving them a tough shot and/or a shot where it's nearly impossible for them to get another good shot.
Ok, now you are wondering why I would ask about poker in a pool thread right? One of the lessons I learned was a few years back watching Luc Salvas play a match on the table beside me in a tournament. He was playing a friend of mine and I know my friend has a good safety game and is pretty good at potting balls too. I was watching how Luc played safe hoping to add something to my repertoire. Before the comments start about watching my own match it should be said the guy I was playing takes about 2-3 minutes per shot so you have lots of time to learn.
Anyway, back to Luc. Luc plays his safety game like Phil Ivey plays poker. He knows how to bet. He would leave, at times, the ball in plain view, however, after observing his opponent through the match, Luc knew what shots his opponent possessed and which ones he didn't and would bait him with a teaser. The ball would be in a position where the shot and the safe were equally difficult but Luc KNEW what the choice would be and BET his safety.
The reason I am posting this is simple...IMHO to be a strong safety player means more than being able to simply lock someone up. A strong defense requires proper understanding of your opponent and the ability to out play them strategically based on the knowledge you have collected. Learn to play poker in your chair and pool on the table and see who finishes with the big stack! I would bet it will be you.
Ok, now you are wondering why I would ask about poker in a pool thread right? One of the lessons I learned was a few years back watching Luc Salvas play a match on the table beside me in a tournament. He was playing a friend of mine and I know my friend has a good safety game and is pretty good at potting balls too. I was watching how Luc played safe hoping to add something to my repertoire. Before the comments start about watching my own match it should be said the guy I was playing takes about 2-3 minutes per shot so you have lots of time to learn.
Anyway, back to Luc. Luc plays his safety game like Phil Ivey plays poker. He knows how to bet. He would leave, at times, the ball in plain view, however, after observing his opponent through the match, Luc knew what shots his opponent possessed and which ones he didn't and would bait him with a teaser. The ball would be in a position where the shot and the safe were equally difficult but Luc KNEW what the choice would be and BET his safety.
The reason I am posting this is simple...IMHO to be a strong safety player means more than being able to simply lock someone up. A strong defense requires proper understanding of your opponent and the ability to out play them strategically based on the knowledge you have collected. Learn to play poker in your chair and pool on the table and see who finishes with the big stack! I would bet it will be you.
Exactly. A defensive shot might be freezing the cb on a rail while giving your opponent a hit on a ball that is frozen on the opposite rail and nothing more(no matter how many balls are on the table). You're playing the odds, you're betting that your opponent can't make that shot. The daily double is betting that your opponent will give you a good lie... The triple, this is where the art in defensive play is, betting that your opponent will make the hit and put the CB in the area you wanted them to.
These are all great posts and examples of when and how to play defense in various games. I have to agree, defense is an art, there is beauty in safes, just as there is with amazing shots. I think that is the reason defense is not talked about much. It's a boring shot. There is no excitement, there is no ball made. People naive to the game won't realize what a beautiful shot a safe is so they will be turned off or let down.
Playing defense is hugely mental too and takes alot of experience to develop the mental patience. The game by default is won by making balls, not just moving them around the table only to give your opponent another shot. Playing defense is the complete opposite of that logic. When playing a majority of the time making shots and running out, to pull up and play defense, for one shot or the whole match, it's a change in logic that needs to happen. Any one can flip a light switch, but knowing when and why takes more time to understand.
This is a great thread and defensive play does need to be discussed more often. It has a stigma attached to it for some players... they think it is an unfair way to play or shows that you are a coward or can't pot balls.
One point I want to bring up is that you should never play a safety in 8-ball just for the sake of getting a ball in hand. You need to play safe with a purpose and must be gaining something (meaning better ball layout). A truly great safety will get you ball in hand AND set your balls up so that you can get out.
As an aside, many years ago, I set it as my personal goal to always get out when I got ball in hand when playing 8-ball and worked hard to achieve close-to-perfect results with that goal. However, I certainly see the point of lights out regarding a layout that lent itself to playing safe and getting a better arrangement.
This is a great thread and defensive play does need to be discussed more often. It has a stigma attached to it for some players... they think it is an unfair way to play or shows that you are a coward or can't pot balls.
One point I want to bring up is that you should never play a safety in 8-ball just for the sake of getting a ball in hand. You need to play safe with a purpose and must be gaining something (meaning better ball layout). A truly great safety will get you ball in hand AND set your balls up so that you can get out.
As an aside, many years ago, I set it as my personal goal to always get out when I got ball in hand when playing 8-ball and worked hard to achieve close-to-perfect results with that goal. However, I certainly see the point of lights out regarding a layout that lent itself to playing safe and getting a better arrangement.
Agreed. In 9-ball, you make a safety to get ball in hand or a shot at the OB you need to hit. In 8-ball you need to position the ball you hit like you would position a piece in chess. You might not use it now but you should have a plan for using it later.
