Deflection Anyone??

IamCalvin06

IamCalvin06

Yang "The Son of Pool"
Silver Member
Since Predator came along and provided us with low Deflection cues it seems that this is some sort of Evolution of pool b/c its supposed to make the game easier and more consistent.

However, there are alot of shots that have very little angles and i feel like the deflection is necessary in those angles to get the CB to certain positions.

Most of these shots do not come up alot but when they do show up, i believe without the right equipment you could win/lose a set.

Is playing with low delfection going to limit your game?

And what happens if you start off learning with a Predator and one day you chip a tip during match play and have to play on a loaner ?
 
IamCalvin06 said:
Since Predator came along and provided us with low Deflection cues it seems that this is some sort of Evolution of pool b/c its supposed to make the game easier and more consistent.

However, there are alot of shots that have very little angles and i feel like the deflection is necessary in those angles to get the CB to certain positions.

Most of these shots do not come up alot but when they do show up, i believe without the right equipment you could win/lose a set.

Is playing with low delfection going to limit your game?

And what happens if you start off learning with a Predator and one day you chip a tip during match play and have to play on a loaner ?
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Please elaborate on the first part.

As for being unable to play with a loaner, low deflection or not every cue will deflect differently. Therefore if you are playing a match with an unfamiliar cue I don't think it is smart to play as you normally would (assuming you play with lots of English). Whenever I play with a house cue, I'll stick to centre ball for most shots and if I put side on the ball it is only very little. So it is never much of a problem. What tends to bother me more, is the different weight and balance of a strange cue.
 
...there are alot of shots that have very little angles and i feel like the deflection is necessary in those angles to get the CB to certain positions.
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Do you have any examples?

The only thing I see useful about squirt is it makes pool hard enough to be interesting.

pj
chgo
 
It sounds like there is a mis-understanding regarding the defenition of deflection (that would be a new thing! :D).

I recommend having a spare shaft with you always.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Do you have any examples?

The only thing I see useful about squirt is it makes pool hard enough to be interesting.

pj
chgo
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I think I've got one example, and probably not more than one. There is the shot where the cueball and object ball are straight and close together. If you stroke through, a double hit is less likely if you hit with english (with a squirt-heavy cue). You can aim away from the cue ball path so that when the cueball hits the object ball, the cue tip has less chance to hit it again.


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So, in my example, the only thing that squirt does is allow the cuestick to more readily get out of the way.


Fred
 
Cornerman said:
I think I've got one example, and probably not more than one. There is the shot where the cueball and object ball are straight and close together. If you stroke through, a double hit is less likely if you hit with english (with a squirt-heavy cue). You can aim away from the cue ball path so that when the cueball hits the object ball, the cue tip has less chance to hit it again.


CueTable Help



So, in my example, the only thing that squirt does is allow the cuestick to more readily get out of the way.


Fred
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Good catch, Fred. Interesting exception to the rule, and worth knowing.

pj
chgo
 
Yup that's one...another scenario is where there is an obstructing ball forcing you to elevate the cue or change your angle to address the cue ball. If your shaft has some squirt to it, then you can address the cue ball at an angle to avoid the obstructing ball...while still contacting the target object ball at the correct angle.

Probably the most significant advantage is for center cue ball hits. If the pivot point of the cue is where you typically bridge for most shots (maybe 8-12"), then squirt will compensate for an errantly struck center ball hit. For example, if you bridge at the pivot point for a center ball hit...but accidentally strike the cue ball 1/2 tip off center. By bridging at the pivot point, squirt will compensate and send the cue ball down the correct aim line. Naturally, spin induced throw and swerve will become a factor...but the benefit of contacting the object ball at the correct angle is still very significant.

This is not to say that these characteristics are any more or less significant to a shaft having low squirt. The advantages of a low squirt shaft are well documented...the preference is always up to the user. I've learned that my game is better accustomed to one piece shafts. :)
 
Puck said:
Probably the most significant advantage is for center cue ball hits. If the pivot point of the cue is where you typically bridge for most shots (maybe 8-12"), then squirt will compensate for an errantly struck center ball hit. For example, if you bridge at the pivot point for a center ball hit...but accidentally strike the cue ball 1/2 tip off center. By bridging at the pivot point, squirt will compensate and send the cue ball down the correct aim line. Naturally, spin induced throw and swerve will become a factor...but the benefit of contacting the object ball at the correct angle is still very significant.
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I think you could argue that a low-squirt cue is better for accidentally off-center hits. It seems to me most likely the error would be a parallel shift off-center, in which case the low-squirt will provide you with a little margin of error. However, if you are deliberately pivoting, then a cue with more squirt might allow you to use a more natural bridge length.
 
deflection

I believe that a low deflection cue and a cue that is stiffer really don't give you that much of an edge. Now I know that people will argue this all day long, but that is just my feelings on it. I have hit with both, and I don't think there is so much of a difference that it will prevent you from making shots.

What I do think is a main driving factor is radial consistency! This game is about consistency, and to me radial consistency can only improve your game. Predator addressed radial consistency, and so has OB-1. To me this is a much bigger factor than deflection. I believe anyone can adapt to a cue's deflection, but if the cue is radial consistent then adaption to the deflection is easier!
 
Ok, just to make things clear - Predator does not change the physics of pool. It's still just a pool cue. In fact, I've played with some stiff hitting handmade cues that play very much like Predator. You're still going to have deflection. You're still going to have throw. All a Predator cue does is strike a cueball.

Seriously, if Predator were that much better than every other cue ever made, don't you think we'd see new records by now? They make a good cue. I know, I have one. But it's not a magic wand. You can't just wave it over the table and have all the balls disappear.
 
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Predator does not change the physics of pool. It's still just a pool cue. In fact, I've played with some stiff hitting handmade cues that play very much like Predator. You're still going to have deflection. You're still going to have throw.
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Well, of course. It's a matter of degree. Less squirt isn't all there is to it, but it's better.

pj
chgo
 
Let's throw this in the ring.

If Deflection is the reaction of the cue stick.
If Swirt is the reaction of the cue ball.

Then the Predator shaft has more deflection????????randyg
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Ok, just to make things clear - Predator does not change the physics of pool. It's still just a pool cue. In fact, I've played with some stiff hitting handmade cues that play very much like Predator. You're still going to have deflection. You're still going to have throw. All a Predator cue does is strike a cueball.

Seriously, if Predator were that much better than every other cue ever made, don't you think we'd see new records by now? They make a good cue. I know, I have one. But it's not a magic want. You can't just wave it over the table and have all the balls disappear.
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Good post. I played with Alpine's BENDER and loved the low deflection play. In fact I commented that it played like a Predator but with a nicer feel than my Predator Sneaky pete.
 
IamCalvin06 said:
Since Predator came along and provided us with low Deflection cues it seems that this is some sort of Evolution of pool b/c its supposed to make the game easier and more consistent.
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...and the never ending discussion on low-deflection shafts vs stiff shafts continues...:D

For clarity purposes, we'll talk about low-deflection shafts as shafts that bend or move out of the desired straight path near the tip on off-center shots therefore allowing the to cb travel the desired straight (shaft moves away, cb travels straight) Stiff shafts will be the ones that don't bend much on off-center shots therefore making the cb squirt or move out of the desired straight path (shaft travels straight, cb moves away)

By the way, low-deflection shafts are not restricted to "laminated" shafts as there are also LD single/solid shafts out there, some you only need to alter the taper to make it LD.

I think the EVOLUTION that comes with low-deflection shaft is the LAMINATION of ordinary or even rejected woods, maple for that matter, that won't perform well as single/solid shaft to become a playable shaft.

IMO
Low deflection shafts compensate for your inability to hit at the centerline of the ball by still letting the cb travel "straight". Whereas if it were to be hit with a stiff shaft, the ball will squirt or move away from the desired path, unless intended to curve back to the path. It, however, is very useful in shots that require ENGLISH as you don't have to adjust much for "squirt" in order to make a shot

BUT AGAIN WHY COMPLICATE THINGS WHEN YOU CAN DO IT THE EASY WAY? Why use English, that creates unnatural & erratic angles after hitting the rail and can even induce more throw to the ob, when you have POSITIONED the cb well so that it can travel to the next ob using the predictable NATURAL ANGLES created in the center line?

In these sense, IMO, low deflection shafts restricts the player from honing his skills to be more accurate with his shots especially with cb positioning

HOWEVER, low deflection shafts are VERY HANDY for NON-PRO'S like us who often make mistakes like unintentionally hitting the cb off-center or positioning the cb with too little/much angle to the next ob. If you love using English & seeing the cb travel a lot, then low-deflection shafts are for you.

In the end, it's boils down to the Player's preference. Some people play well on ld's, some don't. Some can't even tell the difference or can easily switch between the two (I believe it's easier to switch from stiff to LD than the other way around).

As for me, I love my stiff old-growth maple shaft than my low-deflection one:cool:
 
...and the never ending discussion on low-deflection shafts vs stiff shafts continues...
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Tests show that stiff shafts don't squirt (deflect) significantly more than flexible ones. The discussion is about low-squirt shafts vs. high-endmass shafts.

Low deflection shafts compensate for your inability to hit at the centerline of the ball by still letting the cb travel "straight".
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Actually, high-squirt shafts do this - they must have "pivot points" near your bridge length, which is pretty high-squirt, to work well.

pj
chgo
 
randyg said:
Let's throw this in the ring.

If Deflection is the reaction of the cue stick.
If Swirt is the reaction of the cue ball.

Then the Predator shaft has more deflection????????randyg
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Well, no. Why do you think so?
 
txplshrk said:
I believe that a low deflection cue and a cue that is stiffer really don't give you that much of an edge. Now I know that people will argue this all day long, but that is just my feelings on it. I have hit with both, and I don't think there is so much of a difference that it will prevent you from making shots.

What I do think is a main driving factor is radial consistency! This game is about consistency, and to me radial consistency can only improve your game. Predator addressed radial consistency, and so has OB-1. To me this is a much bigger factor than deflection. I believe anyone can adapt to a cue's deflection, but if the cue is radial consistent then adaption to the deflection is easier!
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I'd love to know how Predator has addressed radial consistency by splicing their shafts. I have a Z2 shaft that is 2 months old, and it warped. Shouldn't happen if the cue is 100% radially consistent. The only shaft that can guarantee 100% radial consistency is the i-shaft from McD. The core is carbon, and is flex engineered similar to a graphite golf club shaft. I don't understand how gluing 10 pieces of wood radially assures 100% radial consistency. If you've ever cut a Predator shaft up to see what the cross-section looks like, you've noticed that the shaft "centre" runs all over the place. I remember a study done some time back where it was found that Schon actually produced the most radially consistent shafts (back in the late 90s IIRC) compared to the low deflection shafts at that time.

How do you account for a .4 to .6 ounce weight difference between Predator shafts of identical config? If they are as consistent as Predator would have you believe, they should weight within .1 to .2 ounces of each other. Wood can be inconsistent, even when it's spliced together.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
You guys think WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much about this stuff. Just make the ball, get shape, move on. If you miss, blame yourself.
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I like this answer... a lot. :D
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Well, no. Why do you think so?
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Because more Deflection would equal less Squirt and vise versa.

It's just very hard to market a shaft that has more Deflection, it's easier to interchange the words and confuse a few people,,,,,,SPF=randyg
 
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