Deflection, Cue Power and Kicking!

drivermaker said:
Colin...I have never had an opportunity to even try snooker. If I was ever in a place that had a snooker table, I don't remember it.

I'll let you determine if it negates these factors. Test it yourself and let everyone know. Put your CB on the head spot. Get down into your stance but don't place the tip of your cue up to the CB yet. Visually sight the very top of the vertical center of the CB to go directly over the dead center of the foot spot. Now set up your bridge hand on the table with the tip of your cue 1-1 1/2 tips offset to the right. Actually, you can set the right side of your tip as far out to the edge of the CB. As you're still lining up the top center of the CB with the spot, your shaft will be aligned well to the right of the target, don't worry about it...now without moving your bridge hand, pivot the tip of your cue back to the middle center of the CB and shoot. I don't care how hard you hit it, the CB should be going directly over the center of the foot spot every time and your english will take after it hits the end rail. You will get different english reactions with a Predator and a regular shaft.
Reverse the process and do it to the left. What did you get?

That's one way of applying it. When you get that one down pat, I'll give you another way.
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Hi Drivermaker,
I've read through this a few times trying to work out exactly how to follow your directions but it is not so clear to me.

I assume the bridge is being placed exactly in line as if shooting straight down the table...is that right?

If I pivot the backhand so the tip alligns with the centre of the cue ball, and then cue straight, then how can there be any English applied unless there is swiping across the ball. What am I missing here?

My understanding of backhand english was to line up the shot centreball, then pivot the back hand to the side and shoot through that line. Assuming that if my bridge length is equal to the pivot point then the cue ball will follow the same path but with english. That is, the deflection and the new cue direction cancel out.
 
chefjeff said:
I do the same thing (sort of) with a dumbell. I hold it like a cue and get into my stance at my table and stroke the dumbell 5-10 times. (I don't do this on competitive days as it tears down some of the muscle which tends to reduce my "feel"---I do it on my "off" days so the muscles have time to rebuild) This helps build my arm muscles and their memories. But one of the surprise advantages I've discovered is this excercise really helps me create a stance that is comfortable and stable enough to last an entire session of pool. If my stance is off, even by a little, I notice it immediately with the extra weight.

Another advantage is no holes in the ceiling or walls.

Jeff Livingston
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I've tried the dumbell method too and it can be good for general strengthening, and perhaps its greatest asset is making the stance more solid.

The only problem is that you cannot tell if the arm is moving in the right direction. It may move straight, but across the line of what you need to do when cueing. This can develop muscle memory that tends toward cueing accross the line. If using a heavy cue or even power movements with a standard cue, you can at least watch the cue to try to keep movement in a straight line toward the bridge.
 
drivermaker said:
O.K., here's a thought...I think a very good case can be made for SPID and I believe it has more effect than realized. I'm not going to be the one doing science lab tests on this, nor do I want to clutter my brain with too much so that I obsess about areas that don't have a lot to do with making balls and running racks in the science department. But over the years I've observed the cueball squirting enough out of control that it affected my shotmaking and it had to do with the tip.
For me, I find that the hardest tip I can put on works best. I like to use either a hercules hard or talisman x-hard, with preference toward hercules. A LePro seems to zing the CB all over the place and I can't use them at all, as well as softer tips. In your studies you find that chalking plays a role in squirt and I agree. But I also find that a roughed up tip with a tip tapper or tip-pik plays quite a role at times in order to hold the chalk. Maybe the roughness upon striking the CB does too. It seems that when a tip gets slick like teflon from pounding balls over a few days, even with chalking after every shot, that screwy things can still happen for no damn reason and you start missing balls. Invariably it's easily remedied by whacking that tip with a tapper and doing it on a daily basis before it gets slick at just the wrong time.
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Good to get your feedback Drivermaker.

That is exactly what I have observed for years when playing and why I wanted to offer the idea of SPID (Surface Property Induced Deflection) as something different from Rotation Induced Deflection (RID) which has been the only theory offered up to now, but didn't account for all that we observe in play.

SPID also accounts for higher deflection from power shots with english. With more speed, the chalk and surfaces seem to have less time to interlock well.

On Soft Tips: I think what is happening here is that the tip compresses to the side and then rebounds back in the same direction (hence deflecting the cue ball). With a hard tip compression is directed more into the ferrule and not so much to the side. I made a soft rubber tip once and the deflection was very large, even though no feeling of miscue occured. It's a bit like how a spinning basketball reacts when it hits the floor and the spin is reversed.
 
Power and when it can be used.

Pelican said:
On the power stroke subject. I am not sure I understand the total value of a power stroke except in the break. I may not be defining what you mean by 'power stroke' properly. It makes me thing of someone shooting very hard. I love to play someone that shoots every shot like they are trying to knock the object ball into the next county. My theory is that it is best to shoot no harder than necessary to make the ball and move the cue ball to your next shooting position on the table. That doesn't require break power, assuming you have a table that rolls true and the rails are not dead. Could you elaborate a bit so I have a better understanding of your point.

Thanks a bunch for sharing your knowledge. Y'all have a wonderful and safe 4th, Pel :)
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Hi Pel,
By power shot I mean hard, high speed shots just as you assumed. True the ball bashers are often easy targets but being able to play powerful shots does have its advantages, most noticeably breaking in 9-ball. If you can hit 28mph top speed, then you should be able to hit 25mph with controlled accuracy.

There are not a lot of powerful shots played in pool, but there are opportunities where in can be useful. If you've got an accurate power shot in your arsenal it's like having another club in your bag.

In 8 ball, I often find the extra power useful for kissing into packs of balls. Often the extra options in 8 ball make power shots better percentages than in 9 ball, where one miss can mean the game.

In snooker, controlled power is very useful as we often have to move the cue ball large distances off nearly straight angles to get a good shot on the next ball.

Power is not a huge part of the game, but its a handy, and fun tool to have in your arsenal.
 
Colin Colenso said:
Hi Drivermaker,
I've read through this a few times trying to work out exactly how to follow your directions but it is not so clear to me.

I assume the bridge is being placed exactly in line as if shooting straight down the table...is that right?

If I pivot the backhand so the tip alligns with the centre of the cue ball, and then cue straight, then how can there be any English applied unless there is swiping across the ball. What am I missing here?

My understanding of backhand english was to line up the shot centreball, then pivot the back hand to the side and shoot through that line. Assuming that if my bridge length is equal to the pivot point then the cue ball will follow the same path but with english. That is, the deflection and the new cue direction cancel out.
Click to expand...


Your eyes, your body, and the vertical top center of the CB are aligned to shoot straight down the middle of the table over the spot. Your bridge is aligned slightly more to the right or left side of the CB depending on which side you're going to use as if you were shooting in those directions. As I said your eyes are right on target, but your shaft will be pointing in an angled fashion away from the target. Then you pivot your backhand so that the tip is back to center and fire. Based on your original setup, it will cause the CB to go straight where your eyes and verticlal center of the CB were aligned but your english will still be applied as you setup, without the deflection. I don't know if you're trying to read this through and understand it as opposed to being on the table trying it, where you need to be. This is a DIFFERENT method of applying backhand.

The way that you described is the normal way of applying backhand. Aim center, then pivot right or left. I use this also in this fashion, or if I'm using right english, I'll also set up to the left of center originally with the shaft PARALLEL to the target, not aimed directly at the target, and then pivot over to the right.

The other way is to pivot with your backhand right in the middle of your stroke and swipe it.

I find the first method most deadly, but the important key that goes with it is aligning the CB, eyes, and body FIRST. Go on a table.
 
Colin Colenso said:
SPID also accounts for higher deflection from power shots with english. With more speed, the chalk and surfaces seem to have less time to interlock well.
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This is another factor that I totally agree with. I could care less what the rocket scientists like Jewett, Shepard, and that whole crew have etched in stone. It's friggin' bullshit.
 
Colin Colenso said:
I've tried the dumbell method too and it can be good for general strengthening, and perhaps its greatest asset is making the stance more solid.

The only problem is that you cannot tell if the arm is moving in the right direction. It may move straight, but across the line of what you need to do when cueing. This can develop muscle memory that tends toward cueing accross the line. If using a heavy cue or even power movements with a standard cue, you can at least watch the cue to try to keep movement in a straight line toward the bridge.
Click to expand...


Good point. I figured I didn't do enough reps to get out of line, but maybe so. Perhaps I'll slide the weights onto an old cue and try that.

Thanks,

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
Good point. I figured I didn't do enough reps to get out of line, but maybe so. Perhaps I'll slide the weights onto an old cue and try that.

Thanks,

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...


How do you think this will affect feel? I would imagine that even a 20 oz. +
cue would feel light as a feather after getting used to the heavy training one. I don't know if you would even know that you had anything in your hand if it was 19 oz. or less.
 
drivermaker said:
How do you think this will affect feel? I would imagine that even a 20 oz. +
cue would feel light as a feather after getting used to the heavy training one. I don't know if you would even know that you had anything in your hand if it was 19 oz. or less.
Click to expand...

I definitely wouldn't advise swinging with heavy weights right before a game as you'll tend to overhit balls.

But generally speaking, the cue work I do, including power swinging drills and some weights, the more control I feel in my cueing. It just creates a very solid and smooth feeling and this seems to benefit my soft touch shots as well.

Touch shots are very important, so while I'd recommend 10 minutes strength training a day and 20 minutes of cueing drills. That should go along with 3-6 hours of play. But if you can't get to a table, these drills are a good way to keep or improve a good cue action.
 
chefjeff said:
Good point. I figured I didn't do enough reps to get out of line, but maybe so. Perhaps I'll slide the weights onto an old cue and try that.

Thanks,

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

Good luck Jeff, let me know how you do it and the results.

One way may be to tape some lead sheeting around the center of the shaft, perhaps adding a pound or two. If you swing this weight at a decent speed the muscles should get a good pump after 15-20 reps.

I place towel around the shaft on top of a bench ledge and put my fingers over the towel like a rail bridge shot. This way the bridge is solid and you won't burn your skin. It also keeps your shaft real clean:-)
 
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