Destroyed Ivory

Um, extreme poverty isn't a valid excuse to run around breaking the law and killing animals for their teeth. Billions of people are poor. If being poor makes it ok to break the law then poor people would be taking over the mansions of rich people and redistributing the wealth.

Fact is that wherever there is demand for anything there will be people willing to fill that demand. Anyone who is a poacher knows damn well that they are breaking the law and in most African countries they can already be shot on sight.

I personally like the idea of human hunting. Poachers have KILLED conservationists whom they think were interfering with their activities, they have killed researchers who just happened to be in the wrong place and time.

Quite often the rangers who fight poachers claim that they are outgunned and they are.

So yeah, issue licenses to deputize these big game hunters who have tons of money. Let them arm themselves and form their own private armies to hunt the most dangerous game of all, the armed opponent. Make a reality series out of it.

Betcha that a lot of these "poor" poachers would very quickly find another line of work.

The poor poachers are already in danger of their lives and many have lost the bet. Kenya,Uganda and Tanzania are very poor countries. The money offered to them for the ivory is huge compared to the average wage. The incentives are no less for those paid to protect. With Al-Qaeda in the picture things got only worse. Money talks as do bullets fired at you from helicopters. What the governments are looking for is being able to work outside the reserves, this would be a big step. But without money to pay for rangers the job is hopeless. You can try imposing your values on the issue all you like (not you specifically JB) but unless you are willing to live their lives than your values have no place in the discussion.
 
The poor poachers are already in danger of their lives and many have lost the bet. Kenya,Uganda and Tanzania are very poor countries. The money offered to them for the ivory is huge compared to the average wage. The incentives are no less for those paid to protect. With Al-Qaeda in the picture things got only worse. Money talks as do bullets fired at you from helicopters. What the governments are looking for is being able to work outside the reserves, this would be a big step. But without money to pay for rangers the job is hopeless. You can try imposing your values on the issue all you like (not you specifically JB) but unless you are willing to live their lives than your values have no place in the discussion.

Sorry but when people make it their job to murder those who interfere with their illegal activity then economic circumstances are no longer a valid justification.
 
Wow, just wow. You seriously have no scruples at all? Not buying any cases from you then. Don't want to insert my cues into an englishman, even in cue case form. But seriously, making things out of endangered animals is bad. Please reconsider your stance on that.

You misunderstood me. I said I would use any legal skin.

I am in the business of using skins to make stuff. I am not in the business of saving the world. I have put a lot of thought into what exactly my role is here.
To the point that at one point I considered using no leather at all.

Everything we do has a cost associated with it. The production of leather is a nasty business. So is the production of vinyl.

I can't change the world as a maker of goods. I can only use what the market legally provides to make my goods and try to do the best I can with that.

I could take the stance that we would only make hemp and bamboo cases, two materials that are plentiful and durable. But I can't do that and have a sustainable pool cue case business. So I choose to live in the world we have rather than the one we want.

But before you go attacking me consider that I have never used ANY skin from any endangered species. In fact I have not to date used real croc, elephant, zebra, or any number of exotics that some of my colleagues brag about. All those skins they use are legal I assume and one quick Google search confirms easy availability in the usa of just about any type of exotic skin.

If we want to really go there then each person here can easily list ten ways they are flat out raping the planet. And I don't mean a little bit. I mean living a life that is vastly more wasteful than it has to be. A life that contributes to the extinction of dozens of species each day.
 
That's your take. What part of legal did you not understand? Is there some skin that is morally off limits?

Baby panda?

I have little truck with pandas - any animal that can't be arsed to shag deserves all it gets.

Legal smegal. The 'right thing' is of more importance to me than what is 'legal'. Although I've been too idle to do it, I've meant to start a thread on what living matter is used unnecessarily in the pool industry for some time now. The list is extraordinary.
 
I'm disgusted. You talk too casually of killing, sir. Killing someone or even some animal is a serious thing, not to be taken lightly. I cringe when you want to introduce hunting poachers as entertainment for rich and spoiled sociopaths. You ARE joking, right?

I'm not anti hunting, in fact I myself used to hunt. I realize that the hunting is necessary for the survival of certain animals, when they are well managed. The hunting I, and many others in my community used to do is completely different from the so called Big game hunting. The animals hunted lived in the wild (on my familiys property) and we shot them for food, plain and simple, that means that the animal I shot ended up in my freezer. This is not the same as flying half way around the world to shoot a large animal, simply for the joy of watching it die, and then return home with some "trophy". The major difference is the feeling towards nature. I, and others like me, would like to preserve the nature around me, and leave it in the same state as when I arrived. The killing of the animal for entertainment is not what is intended, rather to be a part of nature, to manage the population and provide food, and of course the bonding experience with your hunting buddies. Though I have lost my interest in the hunting and killing of animals after some life experiences, this does not mean that I feel hunting is wrong in and of itself.

I realize that selling licences to these wealthy big game hunters have been instrumental in some areas of Africa in preserving some of the large game. I think it is unfortunate that we should have to depend on these people, since the motivation of these hunters are simply killing as large a specimen as possible, resulting in a decline in quality of the game. If you think for one second that these hunters travel for their keen interest in ecology and game management, think again. They don't care about the nature,they just want to shoot an elephant from the hood of a range rover. Sadly, since they bring so much money in, there is a temptation for locals to make game reserves (where only hunting animals are preserved) to bring them in, with little or no interest in preserving the ecology of the area. This of course is not a good thing for ecologists or indeed the locals. The prime motivation for game management should be to preserve the local nature, not to make some bloody amusement park for rich bastards.

With regard to selling confiscated ivory it is a well known fact in economics that bringing down the prices will increase the demand for a desired product. More product on the market = increased supply=>decreased prices (the illegal product becomes cheaper to compete with the legal product. The confiscated product does not replace the illegal product, instead there is ample opportunity to forge licences etc. With rampant corruption, this has to end badly. The people in charge of burning the ivory are not stupid. Their actions are informed by bitter and hard bought experience in the war against the illegal trade.

Look it is really simple. People are brutally killed who get in the way of poachers.

Even people who are only doing research and not actively trying to stop poaching.

So the idea of allowing hunters to hunt poachers while obviously "wrong" has certain irony and fantasy appeal to it to me.

I don't know all the socioeconomics involved here. I just imagine that an army of rich white thrill seekers would get their rocks off by chasing game that can shoot back. Thus we save the animals and pit two rather useless groups against each other.

In my opinion when you pick up a gun and make it your profession to kill people then your life is subject to termination at any time by anyone capable of doing so. When you are standing there gun in hand ready to kill don't be surprised if you are killed first.

I don't speak casually of this but deliberately. People who use force to murder and control others as poachers do deserve to meet the same fate they some out.
 
Look it is really simple. People are brutally killed who get in the way of poachers.

Even people who are only doing research and not actively trying to stop poaching.

So the idea of allowing hunters to hunt poachers while obviously "wrong" has certain irony and fantasy appeal to it to me.

I don't know all the socioeconomics involved here. I just imagine that an army of rich white thrill seekers would get their rocks off by chasing game that can shoot back. Thus we save the animals and pit two rather useless groups against each other.

In my opinion when you pick up a gun and make it your profession to kill people then your life is subject to termination at any time by anyone capable of doing so. When you are standing there gun in hand ready to kill don't be surprised if you are killed first.

I don't speak casually of this but deliberately. People who use force to murder and control others as poachers do deserve to meet the same fate they some out.

I have no problem with it either. Law of the jungle, innit?
 
Back
Top