Determining YOUR ideal weight and balance of a cue.

K

Koop

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
With all the questions posted in regards to cues and how they play this post is an example of what I look for and what I ask for in terms of weight and balance.

I recently purchased a scale at:
http://balance.balances.com/scales/3/
and realize now that this has become an extremely important tool when it comes to knowing EXACTLY what I like.

Here is an example of what is important to me when it comes to buying a cue in terms of the correct feel.

I weighed my Joss cue with the Universal shaft because this cue is the perfect feel for me and will be used as the standard when ordering any cue going forward.

I have compared it to my new Webb cue which Mike is going to modify for me (hence the term custom) to meet, as closely as possible, my ideal specs.

Joss butt: 15.55 oz
Universal shaft: 4.55 oz
Total: 20.1 oz
Balance point: 19.5" from buttend


Webb butt: 15.45 oz
Webb shaft: 4.0 oz
Total 19.45 oz
Balance point: 18.875" from buttend

This is where the custom comes into play. Right now I have a titanium radial pin installed and Mike is going to replace it with a stainless steel radial pin which is .4 oz heavier. This will bring the cue up to 19.85 and at the same time will bring the balance point forward. From here we can add a little more weight to the butt is necessary which is why I always ask for weight bolts. If I don't then I am stuck with the weight it is at but by doing so I can take away or add until I get it right.
The Universal shaft is fantastic but has simultaneouly ruined me when it comes to standard shafts. The reason being is that I have found that I prefer a shaft in the 4.5 oz range which is tough to come by. For this reason I am getting another Universal for Christmas that has a radial adapter. This will also add another .4 oz +-

To anyone who seriously buys and sells cues for playing purposes I highly recommend the scale above or one similar.
I hope this helps someone going forward when thinking of things that are important in a cue. Everyone has their ideal set-up but this should show how to achieve it when ordering a cue.

As a side-note, although I have never purchased from him, I love the fact that Martin(jazznpool) weighs his shafts when selling them. This is more important than most people realize.

P.S. I hope I am not offending any cuemakers when I speak of shafts. In all honesty I would love to find a maple shaft in that weight but they are just so hard to come by.
 
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Very good post. I have measured the exact specs of my current shooting cue as well (skip weston), and hope to use it in future custom orders from various makers.

For me, I find it very tricky to duplicate the balance of a cue based soley on its balance point. My old Joss has the same balance point and mass as my Skip, but they feel dramatically different; one has a maple nose with a steel joint, and the other an Ebony forearm with a flat-faced joint. The Skip (ebony) is much more evenly forward balanced, which I much prefer to the Joss. The difference is most pronounced during the backswing of my practice strokes, when the cue is changing directions. The Joss feels like it's pulling my stroke forward, while the skip simply glides to and fro effortlessly.

Re shaft weight: on a flatfaced cue, I've matched the weight of all my playing shafts by having a short screw threaded into the joint end of my shafts. Epoxied in place, there is virtually no chance of it coming loose, and I get a perfect match on both playing shafts in terms of weight and balance. You can also add significant weight to a lighter shaft by doing this, and I've heard of others using a mixture of tungsten powder and epoxy as well.

I think it's very important to pinpoint the qualities we like and don't like in our cues. For me it's been a long and expensive journey, but very, very worthwhile.

-Roger
 
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I'm also beginning to be aware of importance of balance point in a cue.

I have 19.3 oz cue that some people swear is 17 oz due to the balance whereas 19.9 oz cue that feels heavy.

I've posted elsewhere but in my changing weight bolt experiment, 1 oz change moved the balance point of the cue by about an inch and the charateristic of the "hit".
 
Koop said:
With all the questions posted in regards to cues and how they play this post is an example of what I look for and what I ask for in terms of weight and balance.

I recently purchased a scale at:
http://balance.balances.com/scales/3/
and realize now that this has become an extremely important tool when it comes to knowing EXACTLY what I like.

Here is an example of what is important to me when it comes to buying a cue in terms of the correct feel.

I weighed my Joss cue with the Universal shaft because this cue is the perfect feel for me and will be used as the standard when ordering any cue going forward.

I have compared it to my new Webb cue which Mike is going to modify for me (hence the term custom) to meet, as closely as possible, my ideal specs.

Joss butt: 15.55 oz
Universal shaft: 4.55 oz
Total: 20.1 oz
Balance point: 19.5" from buttend


Webb butt: 15.05 oz
Webb shaft: 4.0 oz
Total 19.45 oz
Balance point: 18.875" from buttend

This is where the custom comes into play. Right now I have a titanium radial pin installed and Mike is going to replace it with a stainless steel radial pin which is .4 oz heavier. This will bring the cue up to 19.85 and at the same time will bring the balance point forward. From here we can add a little more weight to the butt is necessary which is why I always ask for weight bolts. If I don't then I am stuck with the weight it is at but by doing so I can take away or add until I get it right.
The Universal shaft is fantastic but has simultaneouly ruined me when it comes to standard shafts. The reason being is that I have found that I prefer a shaft in the 4.5 oz range which is tough to come by. For this reason I am getting another Universal for Christmas that has a radial adapter. This will also add another .4 oz +-

To anyone who seriously buys and sells cues for playing purposes I highly recommend the scale above or one similar.
I hope this helps someone going forward when thinking of things that are important in a cue. Everyone has their ideal set-up but this should show how to achieve it when ordering a cue.

As a side-note, although I have never purchased from him, I love the fact that Martin(jazznpool) weighs his shafts when selling them. This is more important than most people realize.

P.S. I hope I am not offending any cuemakers when I speak of shafts. In all honesty I would love to find a maple shaft in that weight but they are just so hard to come by.
Click to expand...

Koop, Mike makes a nice cue. I'd really like to get one of his new style with re-cuts instead of veneers, but I burned up all my cue money before he started doing them. :(
I think balance point is very important too, I realized it when I got my Madison Bob which is waaaaayyy forward. As a matter of fact I had Mike make the same adjustment to my Webb a couple of years ago.
As to the scale... I have a 20.00 dollar special from Staple's (which I think you used once before getting your new scale), just an old-fashion spring, analog scale, not digital. Do you really think the precision of the digital is worth the extra money?
As far as heavier shafts go, aren't old-growth shafts denser and therefore heavier, thereby fulfilling your desire for a heavier maple shaft?

BTW, I thought you were located the same place as me, "Taxachusetts".
 
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catscradle said:
BTW Koop, got a picture or 2 of your new Webb to post?
Click to expand...

Sure do. They are in the gallery but here is one I have at work.
 

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buddha162 said:
Very good post. I have measured the exact specs of my current shooting cue as well (skip weston), and hope to use it in future custom orders from various makers.

For me, I find it very tricky to duplicate the balance of a cue based soley on its balance point. My old Joss has the same balance point and mass as my Skip, but they feel dramatically different; one has a maple nose with a steel joint, and the other an Ebony forearm with a flat-faced joint. The Skip (ebony) is much more evenly forward balanced, which I much prefer to the Joss. The difference is most pronounced during the backswing of my practice strokes, when the cue is changing directions. The Joss feels like it's pulling my stroke forward, while the skip simply glides to and fro effortlessly.

Re shaft weight: on a flatfaced cue, I've matched the weight of all my playing shafts by having a short screw threaded into the joint end of my shafts. Epoxied in place, there is virtually no chance of it coming loose, and I get a perfect match on both playing shafts in terms of weight and balance. You can also add significant weight to a lighter shaft by doing this, and I've heard of others using a mixture of tungsten powder and epoxy as well.

I think it's very important to pinpoint the qualities we like and don't like in our cues. For me it's been a long and expensive journey, but very, very worthwhile.

-Roger
Click to expand...

Good post Roger.

I agree that it may be difficult to duplicate completely but at least by knowing what you want you can work with the cuemaker to come as close as possible.

Funny you mention tungsten powder as I have some in the butt of my Joss. This stuff is VERY dense and you only need to pour a little in there to add some weight. I still have about .25 oz of the stuff just in case.

Also, the insert you are talking about, can that be done with a radial pin? If so that might just do the trick.

Regards,
Koop
 
Wow! Nice cue in the pic.

Not trying to change the subject, but when I bought a scale, I also bought a caliper to measure the ferrule. I was surprised to find out what I thought was one measurement was actually NOT!
 
TX Poolnut said:
Wow! Nice cue in the pic.

Not trying to change the subject, but when I bought a scale, I also bought a caliper to measure the ferrule. I was surprised to find out what I thought was one measurement was actually NOT!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the compliment. Actually the compliment is for Mike as he's the one who built it.

Not changing at all buddy. My point is basically to show those who always question cue buying and what to look for that it isn't as easy as posting on here and compiling the information. You really need to assess it yourself to know for certain what is best for you.
Calipers are another tool that would provide some very useful information and like the scale, can really open your eyes to what you REALLY like.
 
Great post. I've found that the two most important aspect in a cue for me are taper (including initial tip diameter) and balance. It seems that I've got a window of a couple of oz's for weight, but the the balance, if it's not within 1/4" of 18.5", my arm gets tired.

Fred
 
Cornerman said:
Great post. I've found that the two most important aspect in a cue for me are taper (including initial tip diameter) and balance. It seems that I've got a window of a couple of oz's for weight, but the the balance, if it's not within 1/4" of 18.5", my arm gets tired.

Fred
Click to expand...


Thanks Fred and I agree on the balance. Although we are different on what we prefer in terms of balance it is a good thing to demonstrate how different everyone is and why it's important to figure it our for ourselves.
Taper and tip diameter are biggies too for me.
 
Koop said:
Also, the insert you are talking about, can that be done with a radial pin? If so that might just do the trick.
Click to expand...

Yes, any flat-faced shaft with no existing insert should be no problem. Paul Fanelli performed this minor surgery for me, and he basically cut a metal screw to the right weight and threaded/epoxied it right into the wood.

When certain cuemakers make the claim of perfectly matched shafts, I suspect something similar to have taken place, ie added weight to the lighter shaft.

-Roger
 
probably a dumb question

buddha162 said:
Very good post. I have measured the exact specs of my current shooting cue as well (skip weston), and hope to use it in future custom orders from various makers.

For me, I find it very tricky to duplicate the balance of a cue based soley on its balance point. My old Joss has the same balance point and mass as my Skip, but they feel dramatically different; one has a maple nose with a steel joint, and the other an Ebony forearm with a flat-faced joint. The Skip (ebony) is much more evenly forward balanced, which I much prefer to the Joss. The difference is most pronounced during the backswing of my practice strokes, when the cue is changing directions. The Joss feels like it's pulling my stroke forward, while the skip simply glides to and fro effortlessly.

Re shaft weight: on a flatfaced cue, I've matched the weight of all my playing shafts by having a short screw threaded into the joint end of my shafts. Epoxied in place, there is virtually no chance of it coming loose, and I get a perfect match on both playing shafts in terms of weight and balance. You can also add significant weight to a lighter shaft by doing this, and I've heard of others using a mixture of tungsten powder and epoxy as well.

I think it's very important to pinpoint the qualities we like and don't like in our cues. For me it's been a long and expensive journey, but very, very worthwhile.

-Roger
Click to expand...
Roger,Bearing my ignorance here but where is the screw threaded into the shaft at?I assume it is inside,at the top of the thread area?Do you do this yourself or have your cuemaker do it?Sorry for the dumb question.Mike S
 
whiteoak said:
Roger,Bearing my ignorance here but where is the screw threaded into the shaft at?I assume it is inside,at the top of the thread area?Do you do this yourself or have your cuemaker do it?Sorry for the dumb question.Mike S
Click to expand...

Hi Mike,

I bought MORRO PAEZ's GINA many years ago and the shafts had been modified in the same way. Don't know if EARNIE did it or someone else. Each shaft weighed a whopping 4.6oz. I think the shafts are tapped and then the screw is inserted where you indicated.

It would be a no-brainer for TIM or MIKE if that's a direction you want to pursue.

I'll call you on the other matter we've been discussing.

REGARDS, Adam
 
whiteoak said:
Roger,Bearing my ignorance here but where is the screw threaded into the shaft at?I assume it is inside,at the top of the thread area?
Click to expand...

You're correct, the screw goes into the roof of the threaded hole. Any reputable cuemaker should be able to do this without any problems.

-Roger
 
Thanks

ribdoner said:
Hi Mike,

I bought MORRO PAEZ's GINA many years ago and the shafts had been modified in the same way. Don't know if EARNIE did it or someone else. Each shaft weighed a whopping 4.6oz. I think the shafts are tapped and then the screw is inserted where you indicated.

It would be a no-brainer for TIM or MIKE if that's a direction you want to pursue.

I'll call you on the other matter we've been discussing.

REGARDS, Adam
Click to expand...
Thanks Adam,whenever you get a chance is fine.I will be down there sometime next week.Be good(or be careful),Mike
 
buddha162 said:
You're correct, the screw goes into the roof of the threaded hole. Any reputable cuemaker should be able to do this without any problems.

-Roger
Click to expand...
Seems to me that doing this would affect the "resonance" of the shaft. Not that a human could necessarily tell. And, I'm NOT challenging the methods of cue makers who do this.
 
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