Diamond pockets specs

[dendweller]

So diamond puts out tables with varying pocket specs. 4.75, 4.5, 4.25, 4.125.

My question is how they do that.

Are the slates the same regardless of the pocket, in other words, the shelves are the shelves. If that's the case the shelves are pretty deep on the 4.75 league cut pockets and are getting more forgiving when you get down to 4 inches.

Do they always cut the sub rails to accommodate the difference. They're using them at the world pool championship in poland right now and given it's MatchRoom I assume it's 4 inch pockets. So do you suppose those subrails are cut differently than on the 4.25 inch pockets they just used at the DCC or do they use different shims for small differences.

 

[garczar]

So diamond puts out tables with varying pocket specs. 4.75, 4.5, 4.25, 4.125.

My question is how they do that.

Are the slates the same regardless of the pocket, in other words, the shelves are the shelves. If that's the case the shelves are pretty deep on the 4.75 league cut pockets and are getting more forgiving when you get down to 4 inches.

Do they always cut the sub rails to accommodate the difference. They're using them at the world pool championship in poland right now and given it's MatchRoom I assume it's 4 inch pockets. So do you suppose those subrails are cut differently than on the 4.25 inch pockets they just used at the DCC or do they use different shims for small differences.

I've asked them this and was told they modify the sub-rail to get smaller sizes. The don't just shim them to size.

 

[ChrisinNC]

I've asked them this and was told they modify the sub-rail to get smaller sizes. The don't just shim them to size.

So if there’s no adjustment to the corner cut outs on the slates, just as you say, the shelves get shallower as the pocket mouth specs get tighter.

In my opinion though, that’s fine. As pockets get progressively tighter than 4-1/2 inches, you need to have the depth of the pocket shelves getting shallower, otherwise the pockets will just play ridiculously tough. In fact, once you get down to 4-1/4 and less, you really should alter the pocket facing angle as well, to be a little more forgiving.

As far as shimming the pockets to make them tighter, I think even Diamond feels that 3/16 inch facings can replace 1/8 inch facings to tighten a pocket by 1/8 inch, but nothing thicker than 3/16 inch facings should ever be used to tighten a pocket.

 

[RDeca]

To be honest nothing should be tighter than 4.5 unless the shelves are super shallow and easy. Brunswick heritage pockets that easily fit two balls. But the corners spit balls out all the time. Deep shelves....deep but fair.
Nothing worse than a table that doesn't play fair. It's just not fun to play on tables that are incorrectly set up with shims or too tight. (Used to play nine 2.25 balls on a snooker table for fun every once in a while....after a while it's not fun tho)

 

[Saturated Fats]

Went on a Diamond factory tour in 2021 like they used to do every year during DCC. They may not do it anymore. The last time I was there (2022), they didn't offer any tours.

Greg Sullivan gave the tour and one bit of information that he shared with us is that as the pockets get smaller, the cut angle of the pockets needs to be altered. I don't think he said why or anything about the shelves.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Went on a Diamond factory tour in 2021 like they used to do every year during DCC. They may not do it anymore. The last time I was there (2022), they didn't offer any tours.

Greg Sullivan gave the tour and one bit of information that he shared with us is that as the pockets get smaller, the cut angle of the pockets needs to be altered. I don't think he said why or anything about the shelves.

That would confirm what I thought. There are some tables in some California poolrooms that by request, Ernesto has extended the sub rails and re-cut the pocket angles to virtually parallel (136° to 137°) pocket facing angles and 3-3/4” pocket mouths, with virtually no remaining pocket shelf.

The tables play extremely tight but fair – if the ball hits a pocket facing it will generally fall, but just getting it to the pocket facing especially hitting a ball down the cushion is a challenge, much like on a snooker table.

 

[SBC]

So diamond puts out tables with varying pocket specs. 4.75, 4.5, 4.25, 4.125.

My question is how they do that.

Are the slates the same regardless of the pocket, in other words, the shelves are the shelves. If that's the case the shelves are pretty deep on the 4.75 league cut pockets and are getting more forgiving when you get down to 4 inches.

Do they always cut the sub rails to accommodate the difference. They're using them at the world pool championship in poland right now and given it's MatchRoom I assume it's 4 inch pockets. So do you suppose those subrails are cut differently than on the 4.25 inch pockets they just used at the DCC or do they use different shims for small differences.

It's all cut using CNC.
So different rails are a slightly different program.
Easy to do when it's all setup.

The slate cut and shelf difference is inconsequential regardless of pocket side.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

To be honest nothing should be tighter than 4.5 unless the shelves are super shallow and easy. Brunswick heritage pockets that easily fit two balls. But the corners spit balls out all the time. Deep shelves....deep but fair.
Nothing worse than a table that doesn't play fair. It's just not fun to play on tables that are incorrectly set up with shims or too tight. (Used to play nine 2.25 balls on a snooker table for fun every once in a while....after a while it's not fun tho)

I agree, there's so many poorly setup tables out there because people think they can just shim things down or tighten them up without consideration for the entire geometry of the pocket. It's not just pocket opening, there's the shelf, the shelf curvature, the throat of the pocket and the angles. Most people, including many mechanics are just ignorant on this matter and are completely fixated on small pockets to play tough. Tough playing pockets is fine, so long as they play fair.

I spoke with Greg Sullivan about 20 years back and agree with him 100% on this matter. If a ball hits the inside of a pocket, that is, no outside rail, regardless of the speed or wherever it was shot from on the table - the pocket should accept the ball. Period.

Bad setups don't allow for that. For example, shooting a ball at high speed down the long rail should never be rejected by the pocket. Bad angles and shimming causes that. A good test is to line up 3 frozen balls on the rail and slam them to combo the outside ball down the long rail... hit them very firm. If the pocket doesn't accept the ball, it's garbage.

 

[garczar]

Went on a Diamond factory tour in 2021 like they used to do every year during DCC. They may not do it anymore. The last time I was there (2022), they didn't offer any tours.

Greg Sullivan gave the tour and one bit of information that he shared with us is that as the pockets get smaller, the cut angle of the pockets needs to be altered. I don't think he said why or anything about the shelves.

Anytime you reduce the pocket opening you have to widen the throat. That's why shimming sucks. Yeah its cheap but you end up with pockets that play like crap.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

The worst tables I've ever played on were these triple shimmed gold crown II's ....bad angles, and the stacking of shim material also changes the rebound properties. This is why building the subrail up is preferred.

The old timers thought it was great setup as they and others would adhere to this "it's more manly to play on super tight pocket" ...sure I get it, but what kind of trash table is that when I would just play these guys safe by leaving the OB on the rail where it could not be cut in...LOL it's a crime against pocket billiards when that is considered a safety.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...the shelves get shallower as the pocket mouth specs get tighter.

On same slate, shelf depth reduces half the amount of pocket mouth reduction:

1/4" mouth reduction = 1/8" shelf reduction
1/2" mouth reduction = 1/4" shelf reduction
etc.

pj
chgo

 

[garczar]

That would confirm what I thought. There are some tables in some California poolrooms that by request, Ernesto has extended the sub rails and re-cut the pocket angles to virtually parallel (136° to 137°) pocket facing angles and 3-3/4” pocket mouths, with virtually no remaining pocket shelf.

The tables play extremely tight but fair – if the ball hits a pocket facing it will generally fall, but just getting it to the pocket facing especially hitting a ball down the cushion is a challenge, much like on a snooker table.

Still WAY better than just shimming to 3.75. I've played on GC's that had been shimmed so tight you basically had no shelf and the facings were like wood they were so hard. Talk about a home court advantage.

 

[rexus31]

To be honest nothing should be tighter than 4.5 unless the shelves are super shallow and easy. Brunswick heritage pockets that easily fit two balls. But the corners spit balls out all the time. Deep shelves....deep but fair.
Nothing worse than a table that doesn't play fair. It's just not fun to play on tables that are incorrectly set up with shims or too tight. (Used to play nine 2.25 balls on a snooker table for fun every once in a while....after a while it's not fun tho)

For amateurs, maybe. Certainly not for professionals.

 

[garczar]

For amateurs, maybe. Certainly not for professionals.

This issue is like walking a tightrope if you're a room owner. Joe Public fun player wants to make balls, have fun, come back for more. Better players want tighter in order to be properly challenged. The room i play in made the mistake of tightening too many tables. Most people that come in literally can't make a ball. I watched two guys play the other day. It took fifteen minutes from the time they set the balls down til someone made a ball(4.125" on a GC4). Tight is great for pros but not for Joes.

 

[rexus31]

This issue is like walking a tightrope if you're a room owner. Joe Public fun player wants to make balls, have fun, come back for more. Better players want tighter in order to be properly challenged. The room i play in made the mistake of tightening too many tables. Most people that come in literally can't make a ball. I watched two guys play the other day. It took fifteen minutes from the time they set the balls down til someone made a ball(4.125" on a GC4). Tight is great for pros but not for Joes.

Agreed. Most professionals aren't heading down to the local room to knock balls around. For professional events, tight pockets should be standard, which is the direction Matchroom is taking.

 

[garczar]

Agreed. Most professionals aren't heading down to the local room to knock balls around. For professional events, tight pockets should be standard, which is the direction Matchroom is taking.

It reminds me of golfers that insist on playing from 'the tips' and they probably can't break 90 from the ladies tees. You've got guys that watch pro pool and insist on playing super tight tables. A Diamond blue label with 4.5" pockets is not easy by any stretch. Tough but fair. Anything tighter is for pros/very good ams. only imo.

 

[maha]

problem is most pool rooms when getting smaller pockets arent getting them set up properly. so they do no good only ruin it for anyone but the dead eyed ball pocketer.

i find in many poolrooms with less than 4.5 pockets diamonds. the balls hit with speed that hit the outside facing of the pocket get spit out. that makes it no fun.

with olhausen the inside along the rail does that. cant either get their idea that 90% of the players or more are not run out players.
and actually enjoy a ball falling in when they hit a shot that they believe should have gone in.

the 10% have a loud mouth and the 90% are quiet. so who do they listen to. obviously the wrong mouth.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Agreed. Most professionals aren't heading down to the local room to knock balls around. For professional events, tight pockets should be standard, which is the direction Matchroom is taking.

In addition, pro tournaments are always played on newly installed cloth, which always make the pockets play far more forgiving than worn in cloth most of us play on in our poolrooms.

That’s even more reason why pro events should be played on pockets no bigger than 4-1/4”, but pockets that tight in poolrooms (except for maybe 1-2 tight tables for your serious 1-pocket players) is not a good idea for anyone.

 

[dendweller]

Anytime you reduce the pocket opening you have to widen the throat. That's why shimming sucks. Yeah its cheap but you end up with pockets that play like crap.

Used to have an Olhausen Grand Champion, got it after being used at the FoxWoods casino for the Tournament Of Champions. It played way easier with the 4.25 inch pockets after triple shimming. They had to be 144 degrees at the corners, they needed to be deadened.
Check out the shelve depth, imaging the depth at a 5 inch corner, maybe that was part of the issue too.

 

[garczar]

Used to have an Olhausen Grand Champion, got it after being used at the FoxWoods casino for the Tournament Of Champions. It played way easier with the 4.25 inch pockets after triple shimming. They had to be 144 degrees at the corners, they needed to be deadened.
Check out the shelve depth, imaging the depth at a 5 inch corner, maybe that was part of the issue too.

Only played on a OGC once. Was not impressed. Played funky is all i can say. And the pocket rubber seemed like it stuck up a foot.