I'll take the over
Diamond Systems don't work on Diamond Tables
- Thread starter Flip_dat_Quarta
- Start date
I'll take the over
The "Diamond System" has and always will be a guide to kicking shots. Every player who excelled in the game uses "feel" more than empirically using the diamonds to methodize their shots. I am old enough to remember when felt was used on every table and every table had a long and short roll off of kicks. Willie Hoppe used "feel" for his bank shots and he wasn't too shabby a player. So, the answer is to practice a little on the table you're playing on and learn its quirks so that when you are called upon to perform a kick shot you'll know where to strike the rail.
Hoppe did not use a system, but did pull out his book one day and felt it was remarkably accurate.
1. Systems DO work. You need to make subtle adjustments, which can also be learned in a systematic fashion.
2. There is NO reason why tables should bank faster and shorter now than before. It's stupid, unnecessary and bad for the game.
3. Some systems can be adapted to tables that have stupid rails, others cannot. "The corner 5" 3-cushion system is very robust and can be adapted to pretty much everything. Certain 2-rail systems cannot easily be adapted.
2. There is NO reason why tables should bank faster and shorter now than before. It's stupid, unnecessary and bad for the game.
3. Some systems can be adapted to tables that have stupid rails, others cannot. "The corner 5" 3-cushion system is very robust and can be adapted to pretty much everything. Certain 2-rail systems cannot easily be adapted.
Diamonds are the new Gandys
Flip_dat_Quarta
Banned
Response:
1. I agree that no systems are 100% correct but they should get you close. I'm not a fan of aiming systems either but it would be nice to have a decent 2 and 3 rail kicking system that could consistently hit a 6" wide target area to get you out of trouble.
2. Agreed. My point is that these systems were all created many years ago before the equipment changed. Today we mostly play on tables with tight rails so therefore all of the baseline systems need a significant adjustment. And then once you make the initial adjustment you have to adjust again for the humidity, cloth, etc. Too much adjusting. The baseline needs modification.
3. No I'm not. I play on many different tables in many different locations. Mostly diamonds though.
4. Define playing perfect? According to the book "Win At Pocket Billiards by Desmond Allen" you should be able to place the cue ball in the jaws of the corner pocket and shoot straight into the 3rd diamond with running english to come around 3 rails to the other corner pocket. This will never happen on a diamond. Please try on your table and let me know how much you have to adjust. For me, I usually end up having to shoot at about 1.75 diamonds, not 3 diamonds
5. True.
6. Also true but you shouldn't have to make a baseline adjustment of 1.25 diamonds as stated above. It should initially get you close and then you fine tune it for your specific table conditions.
7. Very true. Multi rail kicks are the only areas of my game that could benefit from a system however it's too much trouble to try to adjust the system to fit a diamond table and then adjust again for the specific playing conditions. I just end up going off feel as with everything else.
I just wish someone would take a book like "Win at Pocket Billiards" and recreate all of the diagrams and formulas to be more consistent with a diamond table.
Here is a similar situation: Imagine you were going to build something. You had a set of directions that told you exactly where to cut all of the wood to complete the project. Well all of the measurements were based off of using a 1/4" saw blade however you will be using a 1/8" saw blade. Now you have to back figure all the math in your head to adjust your cutting lines. It's a waste of time. If everyone uses 1/8" saw blades they should rewrite the directions. Right?
Banks
Banned
Say all you want, there's a reason they're taking over. It certainly isn't because people like gold crowns more.
I just have to respond to this. Shooting the 3. diamond only works on a billiard table. I've never ever played on a pooltable where you can start from the corner, hit the third diamond and scratch in the corner with a normal stroke. Typical values are 2.25 or 2. 1.75 IS very short, though. It will be very tough to successfully use some 2-rail systems on a table that banks that short.
Under that logic, all cloth should be the same too but it's not. That said, I don't think table manufacturers like Diamond go out of their way to be different. Before rushing to judgment, we first have to know the details. Are the materials different? If so, what reasons went into moving away from the old material? If they're not different, what could cause rails to play differently?
Flip_dat_Quarta
Banned
My point exactly!! The book is titled "Win at POCKET Billiards". (Not 3 cushion billiards) So why should we have to adjust so much?
My Gold Crown plays a 1/2 diamond off of the "perfect playing table" yet it has cushion, sub-rail, and pocket dimensions similar to a Diamond. Using the diamond system is very simple on all tables, within 2 or 3 shots you should be getting pretty close to understanding how that particular table plays on that particular day. I am assuming most people have a certain shot selection they go thru before playing on a different table, if you just include these shots with your selected practice shots you should be able to figure out the diamond system on that particular table.
I don't know what their reasons were, maybe there were some good reasons (for the manufacturers). Looking at it from a players perspective, I see many downsides to having tables that play like ice and with cushions that do not play to the standard values and especially overly small pockets that are designed to rattle balls out.
In the future I think most players will likely be poking the ball like Pei-Wei Chang. Shane Van Boening and Earl are allready dinosaurs in that they are players with actual powerful strokes. That will be rendered unnecessary, maybe become a liability, as you only need a 2 inch poke to go 6 rails these days. Most of the damage to the diamond systems etc has allready been done, but I guess the cushions could always be made to bounce even faster and shorter.
I'm not old, yet I like the equipment I play on to be traditional. I like to watch historical matches, and to think about the players that have played before me. I especially love green cloth, Brunswick table and Centennial balls. Makes me think of the days of Mosconi and Greenleaf. The current equipment is not even close the same thing. Modern pool is fast becoming as far removed from pool in the old days, as modern fencing is from actual dueling/swordfighting. The equipment is changing so much that there will soon be nothing left of the original game, not to talk about the stupid rules that are being used. But OK, I might be in the minority here.
On the subject of fencing, I'd much rather watch (or even learn) this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5w2Mh6CyXo
Than this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hyeD_iL1Qc
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Flip_dat_Quarta
Banned
That is correct. Adjusting for three rail kicks that way is easy however it's really screwed up for 2 railers. There is not a constant adjustment factor for 2 railers. The adjustment factor increases as you move further from the corner pocket so it's constantly changing. You might as well throw the 2 rail systems out the window.
It's cause Brunswick don't give a crap about pool anymore.
If Brunswick (the Fortune 500 company) cared about pool, Diamond would be making toothpicks instead of pool tables.
I was talking to a Brunswick sales person yesterday who was making some comments to the effect that
Brunswick not interested in big tables (no longer makes snooker tables) and only interested in 8 ft. and smaller.
Not interested in the Canadian market where the demand is for snooker tables and 9 ft. pool tables.
If you want a Gold Crown and the distributor does not have it in stock, it could be a long wait if Brunswick doesn't have all the parts, such as the corner castings - could take months.
Exactly.
If they wanted to own pool, they would own pool.
But they could care less now.
can you give an example of which 2 rail system you use and what happens on your table please??
mini hi jack
how about watching this??
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...C64B1FFBC4BDC162CF5EC64B1FFBC4BDC1&FORM=VIRE7
carry on men
The problem is, there is no authority in pool powerful enough to dictate how rails should play. Even if the WPA said only a certain rail could be used, there would still be thousands of pool tournaments across the country that would simply use what's available and table manufacturers would comply if it were a good business decision to do so.
That said, competitors in many sports must endure changing environments. It's just par for the course. Runners think concrete is too hard. Baseball players think astroturf is too bouncy. Tennis players think grass isn't bouncy enough. Yet, some adapt. The best pool players are often very adaptable.