Diamonds clearly bank shorter than most other if not all tables…so, why?

[iusedtoberich]

I am curious though, except for Diamond and except for GC owners who wanted to "Diamondize" their tables, what brand/model of table uses the same exact Artemis cushion as on the 9' diamond. Does anyone know as fact? I've actually never heard of a table that used them as their OEM cushion. Of course I don't know every brand, and I'm guessing if there is a table, it's a European table.

 

[JolietJames]

I would like to see some actual evidence that this is true on blue label diamonds produced over the last 10 or 15 years. I suspect that diamond rails are just more speed sensitive when it comes to banking. What I would really like to see is testing with a reproducible stroke, aim, and speed, something like a robot. Not some random internet guy claiming his stroke is the same every time and 100% consistent.

Was this in response to my post?

 

[DynoDan]

I bought a new 9' ProAm about a year and a half ago.
It banks as true as both GCs I've owned in the past. I make NO adjustment for banks.
As far as I am concerned, the issue has been fixed.

I agree. The tournament tables at Va. Beach with fresh 860 played/banked perfectly.

 

[Badpenguin]

Was this in response to my post?

It was in response to the original post.

 

[Poolmanis]

I don't think the wood material or rail construction have much to do with it. If the stiffness of the wood (laminated oak on a Diamond vs solid poplar on a GC) made much of a difference, I think we'd see a "bigger difference" where there is a rail bolt on a poplar rail vs where there is no rail bolt on a poplar rail.

ps, I think "butcher block" is the wrong term for what diamond does. Butcher block in cooking cutting boards usually refers to end grain sticking up in square blocks which is the best for the knife not whittling down the cutting board over time. Diamond rails are simply laminated together, with the grain cupping alternating direction, which is super common in any woodworking solid wood panel glue-up. The alternating grain orientation is to minimize warping over time.

I was at the Hopkins expo last month and talked a while about this with Philly's top table mechanic. He too was of the opinion that Diamond did everything great, except they completely ruined the rails bounce/angle, and he too could not believe a company of "players" would ever let those rails out the door for 30 years.

Anyway, he told me he has a durometer measuring instrument in his truck and measures every table he works on, and every new cushion he installs, and even keeps a scrap of the new cushions in his truck, all as a way to know if the cushions on a table are in need of replacement. He told me that Diamond cushions, both the Artemis on the 9' tables, and the Diamond black on the 7' tables, are about 10 durometer softer than just about every other brand of cushion. It was his opinion that this softness was the major cause of both the diamond fast speed, and the diamond short angle.

I believe Rubber softness too is the reason for rebound shorter.

 

[jbart65]

I learned how to bank consistently on my current 7-foot Olhausen and I play mostly on 9-foot GC3s at my local pool hall. I also play a few weeks a year on an 8-foot AE Schmidt at a beach house I rent.

They all bank quite similar using pocket speed or fast banks.

Played on a new 7-foot Diamond Pro Am last summer. I didn't have to adjust my bank angles. It played similar to the Olhausen, GC3 and Schmidt.

What does it mean? I have no idea.

This was before I knew anything at all about the longstanding banking controversy regarding Diamonds.

I have not played on a 9-foot Diamond yet.

 

[fastone371]

I don't know. We've been going around in circles as to the "why" for 30 years. And now we are going around in circles since the Blue came out on even "if" there is a problem.

I do think it could be figured out quite quickly with a few experiments at the Diamond factory and access to try a few different things.

We know the the sub-rail angle was incorrect on the red labels and corrected on the blue labels. Even at that though I have seen some blue labels that bank short although they seem few and far between. I cant blame cloth conditions and age on the blues that bank short. A friend has a blue label Diamond that he bought new that banks unusually short for a blue label Diamond, if the table didnt have a nameplate you would think you were playing on a red label but it doesn't play unusually fast like most red labels. Its a strange deal because it seems like the very fast speed and short banking went hand in hand with each other.

 

[fastone371]

I learned how to bank consistently on my current 7-foot Olhausen and I play mostly on 9-foot GC3s at my local pool hall. I also play a few weeks a year on an 8-foot AE Schmidt at a beach house I rent.

They all bank quite similar using pocket speed or fast banks.

Played on a new 7-foot Diamond Pro Am last summer. I didn't have to adjust my bank angles. It played similar to the Olhausen, GC3 and Schmidt.

What does it mean? I have no idea.

This was before I knew anything at all about the longstanding banking controversy regarding Diamonds.

I have not played on a 9-foot Diamond yet.

It means more than likely that you were playing on a blue label Diamond, not the earlier red label.

 

[TrxR]

We know the the sub-rail angle was incorrect on the red labels and corrected on the blue labels. Even at that though I have seen some blue labels that bank short although they seem few and far between. I cant blame cloth conditions and age on the blues that bank short. A friend has a blue label Diamond that he bought new that banks unusually short for a blue label Diamond, if the table didnt have a nameplate you would think you were playing on a red label but it doesn't play unusually fast like most red labels. Its a strange deal because it seems like the very fast speed and short banking went hand in hand with each other.

I wonder if it could have anything to do with the setup?

 

[baalpeteor]

Why do they bank shorter? They absolutely bank noticeably and distinctly shorter - that’s a fact that any reasonable hobby player can easily know, so what do the better players and pro players do mentally to play on these or other brands to still play consistently great? Thx

knowing all table conditions and playing them religiously so you don't even think about it, you just walk up and shoot your best game. Your body automatically adjusts for "Diamond", "Brunswick", "Olhausen Rattle Mode" etc.
- Best bank pool player in all of CO.

 

[ChrisSjoblom]

2 faces or a vase ???

View attachment 757820

Two old dudes staring at one another through a wine goblet.

 

[Pelzer Pete]

I think wild wing has it. The angle of the cushion and the hardness makes them bank short. I can bank like nobody's business on a Valley or Dynamo but I really have to process the shot on a Diamond. I play barbox mostly and there's a big difference on a 9 footer.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I wonder if it could have anything to do with the setup?

No! It happens on brand new Diamonds direct from the factory. There were just 200 of them at the Expo brand new that were pin ball machines. I played on about 5 random ones, and all played like that. And the biggest advantage of a Diamond, and the main reason they took over, is there is zero setup by the mechanic other than screwing on the legs and a quick level check at the 4 legs. So no chance for the mechanic to screw anything up, including the cloth install, or how tight the cloth is on the cushions.

 

[Colonel]

No! It happens on brand new Diamonds direct from the factory. There were just 200 of them at the Expo brand new that were pin ball machines. I played on about 5 random ones, and all played like that. And the biggest advantage of a Diamond, and the main reason they took over, is there is zero setup by the mechanic other than screwing on the legs and a quick level check at the 4 legs. So no chance for the mechanic to screw anything up, including the cloth install, or how tight the cloth is on the cushions.

What is it with this “pinball machine” reference constantly, FOR YEARS NOW. It’s really pretty simple, Diamonds don't bank short, they bank DIFFERENTLY. Your reference to them banking short and “pinball machine” are both caused by the same thing, yours and others inability to adjust your speed. If you try to hit a bank on a Diamond at the same stroke speed that you hit it on a GC, it falls short. There’s nothing wrong with the rail. The issue is your inability to, or stubborn refusal to adjust your stroke speed. It’s the same thing with your pinball machine comments, it’s a faster rail so adjust your stroke speed. They say the definition of insanity is to do something over and over the same way and expecting a different result.

 

[RacerX750]

I find the diamonds bank short under 45° maybe 50° and long over about 60°. Is it just me? Has anybody else noticed? Going 2 or 3 rails on a diamond banks the same as a gold crown depending on the exact shot. It’s because of the offsets of one acute and one obtuse angle. It’s really hard to explain. It’s just a “feel” thing.

My 2004 Red Diamond 9' does the same thing you describe. If I shoot banks under about 30 degrees soft top is very predictable. Or using Dr. Dave's Twice Plus Tenth system works very well after you get a feel for it. Speed is critical.

Twice-Plus-Tenths Banking System - Dr. Dave Pool Info

What is a good system for aiming fast-speed bank shots? The twice-plus-tenths bank shot aiming system illustrated and demonstrated below works well for sliding banks resulting from fast speed or the OB being close to the rail. It works well for banks of any speed if the OB is close to the...

billiards.colostate.edu

Oblique angles always go long but can be corrected with running english.

You can also add a bit of outside english to counter cut induced throw, especially on slower shots.

Lots of experimentation and practice is the only way to improve on anything in this sport. The work has to be done if you want to improve.

 

[jbart65]

I am a little puzzled. As I mentioned, I have not played on a Diamond 9-foot table yet. The new 7-foot one I played on seemed to bank similar to other brands.

If a new 9-foot Diamond Pro-Am banks short relative to other tables, using the same shot speed or spin, do other shots rebound off Diamond rails differently. too? Say, a stun shot, for example.

Why would a ball come off on Diamond rails differently on bank shots compared to other brands, but not on a stun, follow or draw shot?

 

[ANTJR122]

Why do they bank shorter? They absolutely bank noticeably and distinctly shorter - that’s a fact that any reasonable hobby player can easily know, so what do the better players and pro players do mentally to play on these or other brands to still play consistently great? Thx

 

[ANTJR122]

I own an early Diamond Professional (9 foot) table with pro cut pockets. It was set up once at the Allen Hopkins Super Billiard Expo in Pennsylvania for a couple of days, then moved and installed in my home by Tony's Hustlers, Inc., who said they set them up all over the US for pro tournaments. My cushions have never banked "short" and in fact bank slightly long if anything. I do like the way the cushions react, perhaps due to a slightly higher rail nose height- I am not sure about that but in any event the balls bounce slower off the cushions, spending more time on them which allows for more English to "take" off of them. In contrast, the 9 foot Brunswick Gold Crown III's where my league plays have (I believe) low cushion heights which allows the balls to bounce "hot" off of the cushions, become airborne when hit hard into a cushion and misbehave badly (except when new cloth and new rail cloth is installed- then they behave better for approximately 1 year for some reason- perhaps the new cloth allows balls to slide a little and lengthens the rebound angle so they do not bounce so short or so hot. In any event, I prefer my Diamond table any day.

 

[ANTJR122]

I own an early Diamond Professional (9 foot) table with pro cut pockets. It was set up once at the Allen Hopkins Super Billiard Expo in Pennsylvania for a couple of days, then moved and installed in my home by Tony's Hustlers, Inc., who said they set them up all over the US for pro tournaments. My cushions have never banked "short" and in fact bank slightly long if anything. I do like the way the cushions react, perhaps due to a slightly higher rail nose height- I am not sure about that but in any event the balls bounce slower off the cushions, spending more time on them which allows for more English to "take" off of them. In contrast, the 9 foot Brunswick Gold Crown III's where my league plays have (I believe) low cushion heights which allows the balls to bounce "hot" off of the cushions, become airborne when hit hard into a cushion and misbehave badly (except when new cloth and new rail cloth is installed- then they behave better for approximately 1 year for some reason- perhaps the new cloth allows balls to slide a little and lengthens the rebound angle so they do not bounce so short or so hot. In any event, I prefer my Diamond table any day.

My table was installed in March, 1995.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I am a little puzzled. As I mentioned, I have not played on a Diamond 9-foot table yet. The new 7-foot one I played on seemed to bank similar to other brands.

If a new 9-foot Diamond Pro-Am banks short relative to other tables, using the same shot speed or spin, do other shots rebound off Diamond rails differently. too? Say, a stun shot, for example.

Why would a ball come off on Diamond rails differently on bank shots compared to other brands, but not on a stun, follow or draw shot?

Yes, it affects all shots. Not just banks. Anytime the CB hits a rail while playing position on a Diamond it comes off with noticeably more speed than about any other brand.

About the only time I’ve come across a table with as much bounce as a Diamond was in a bar with 2 old school bar boxes that I suspect the slate was sitting high, causing the cushion to be low.