Different Instruction Methods

Pool forums did the trick for me. Before those I didn't even know what wrist twisting, head movement and bad alignement were. Once I became aware of my faults, I began to work on correcting them. More experienced players around me couldn't do much for me on fundamentals side...I simply didn't want to have that many deformations. I only used them for guidance on tactics, shot selection, etc.
 
Zims Rack said:
I've mentioned this before and will say it again...
You can't compare a Pros stroke to a straight, consistent stroke. You can't say, well xxxx is a Pro and he drops the shoulder or doesn't follow thru or doesn't set-pause-finish-freeze. That's because about 95% of the pros have been adjusting their game to the flaws for many years and have learned to overcome it and I don't think they are even aware of 80% of their flaws.
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not trying to argue here, just pointing out some things. if 95 percent of pro's are doing it, then that tells you something. all of them do set, pause, finish, freeze, its just a matter of how long they do these things for.

you CAN compare a pro's stroke to a straight consistent stroke, all fo the pro's final stroke is STRAIGHT. and they are ALL consistent. they all do the EXACT same thing every time. that is the difintion of consistent.

MANY top pro's have had/are taking instruction, but they ALL develop their own personal style of play. so you can't say that they would have become as good as they are in a short period of time, becasue many of them had the instruction you speak of, yet they developed their own "stroke"

Zims Rack said:
In all honesty, any instructor is better to learn from than a Professional player. Why would you want to wait another 15 years + to reach a certain level when you can skip the years of trial and error.
EXAMPLES:
3) Jennifer Barretta has been playing pool for less than 8 years and look at where she's at! .
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if i'm not mistaken, jenn barretta's first coach was a pro player(tony robles)

i have yet to see someone that skipped the years of trial and error ONLY because of proper instruction. ALL of the top pro's were playing YEARS before they reached that level. the ones that made it to that level in less YEARS are the ones that were putting in 12 hours a day at the table.


i will agree that someone should seek proper instruction, yet i disagree that proper instrucion can ONLY be attained from a non pro player.

proper instruction can come from a pro player, a pro teacher, or a pro player/pro teacher.

VAP
 
chefjeff said:
If I know the "why," I can do a better job of this and therefore keep growing as a player, can I not? But I have to understand exactly what happened in order to do this and that understanding is the "why" of the shot.
Jeff Livingston
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In the drug thread you were trying to differentiate a drugs effect by the words "enable" and "enhance" and I thought you were on the right track until you started stumbling and confusing yourelf by their meanings and usage. I still think you were on the right track.

I think the same thing is happening here with "what" and "why" and to what extent we're going to extrapolate the "why" out in assessing a problem. I'm not against the "why" as much as I am in over educating the student in ALL of the "whys", especially the complex ones. As a for instance, let's say you have a 6' straight in shot from corner to corner and you miss it. You try again and again and miss 5 times in a row.

Can YOU tell me WHY you missed that shot? How many possibilities are there for missing that one particular shot at that time...1,3, 5, 20, 50, 100, 200? Actually there might be 500 if you take in every possible problem that can take place in conjunction with multiple variables that are coupled together.
At this point you might start rolling everything you know over the frontal lobe to determine "why" you missed the shot and before you know it you're so locked up in positions and angles with your stance, upper arm, wrist, grip, grip pressure, and everything else that you're now a basket case.

Now lets say you set up the same shot and miss in the presence of an instructor. What does an instructor do at this point...start telling the student each and every "why" to give his pupil more bang for the buck to educate him beyond what is necessary and to make himself look like a walking/talking pool genius? When I say "why" I'm really thinking in terms of too much "why" and taking it to the point of complexity or confusion. Some instructors are also consumed so much with the "why" that THEY take it all the way back to arm positions, alignment with the shoulder, and before you know it they're changing EVERYTHING into what VAP said in an earier post, a cookie-cutter player with identical book training positions.

And at this point, why does a player have to know that his tip is pointing up in the air and should be touching the cloth? That's not etched in stone any where and is defied every day on the pro circuit. Why would he even want to think about that and TRY to force it or focus on it? Maybe the whole reason that he missed the 6' shot and his tip was askew was because his bridge hand had inched too far back from the CB at set-up without his realizing it and all the instructor had to do was move it closer to the ball to let the desired result occur. Why would someone have to be confused at this point to think about stuff that the instructor should be thinking about. Just move his f*#king hand and say..."OK, now shoot". All of a sudden he rips in 10 in a row...he's happy as a pig in slop...the instructor is happy with the now desired positions...and the pupil isn't thinking that his "TIP on the cloth" position is the reason for all future missed shots and is trying to force it. For many other missed shots, that more than likely won't even be the problem.

As usual, I think we're having a misunderstanding on semantics. But, at the same time I still stand by what I said earlier and that is that an instructor doesn't have to overeducate a student to their level of knowledge, they just have to get them to stroke it straight.

I'd also like to know what the certified instructors teach in the way of tuck and roll, backhand english, certain aiming systems, and other unorthodox manipulations and maneuvers that top players use. The answer is...THEY DON'T. It's not according to the book and the "why" or physics and geometry of it CANNOT be explained. Yet, it works.
 
drivermaker said:
In the drug thread you were trying to differentiate a drugs effect by the words "enable" and "enhance" and I thought you were on the right track until you started stumbling and confusing yourelf by their meanings and usage. I still think you were on the right track.

I think the same thing is happening here with "what" and "why" and to what extent we're going to extrapolate the "why" out in assessing a problem. I'm not against the "why" as much as I am in over educating the student in ALL of the "whys", especially the complex ones. As a for instance, let's say you have a 6' straight in shot from corner to corner and you miss it. You try again and again and miss 5 times in a row.

Can YOU tell me WHY you missed that shot? How many possibilities are there for missing that one particular shot at that time...1,3, 5, 20, 50, 100, 200? Actually there might be 500 if you take in every possible problem that can take place in conjunction with multiple variables that are coupled together.
At this point you might start rolling everything you know over the frontal lobe to determine "why" you missed the shot and before you know it you're so locked up in positions and angles with your stance, upper arm, wrist, grip, grip pressure, and everything else that you're now a basket case.

Now lets say you set up the same shot and miss in the presence of an instructor. What does an instructor do at this point...start telling the student each and every "why" to give his pupil more bang for the buck to educate him beyond what is necessary and to make himself look like a walking/talking pool genius? When I say "why" I'm really thinking in terms of too much "why" and taking it to the point of complexity or confusion. Some instructors are also consumed so much with the "why" that THEY take it all the way back to arm positions, alignment with the shoulder, and before you know it they're changing EVERYTHING into what VAP said in an earier post, a cookie-cutter player with identical book training positions.

And at this point, why does a player have to know that his tip is pointing up in the air and should be touching the cloth? That's not etched in stone any where and is defied every day on the pro circuit. Why would he even want to think about that and TRY to force it or focus on it? Maybe the whole reason that he missed the 6' shot and his tip was askew was because his bridge hand had inched too far back from the CB at set-up without his realizing it and all the instructor had to do was move it closer to the ball to let the desired result occur. Why would someone have to be confused at this point to think about stuff that the instructor should be thinking about. Just move his f*#king hand and say..."OK, now shoot". All of a sudden he rips in 10 in a row...he's happy as a pig in slop...the instructor is happy with the now desired positions...and the pupil isn't thinking that his "TIP on the cloth" position is the reason for all future missed shots and is trying to force it. For many other missed shots, that more than likely won't even be the problem.

As usual, I think we're having a misunderstanding on semantics. But, at the same time I still stand by what I said earlier and that is that an instructor doesn't have to overeducate a student to their level of knowledge, they just have to get them to stroke it straight.

I'd also like to know what the certified instructors teach in the way of tuck and roll, backhand english, certain aiming systems, and other unorthodox manipulations and maneuvers that top players use. The answer is...THEY DON'T. It's not according to the book and the "why" or physics and geometry of it CANNOT be explained. Yet, it works.
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i agree 100 percent on the "over educating" part. its ok to explain SOME of the how, but it is not needed to go into more detail. unless of course the student is really interested in the phyisics and such, but if they are interested in that, there is plenty of material for them to research on their own.

when i am learning (or teaching at times) i look at a LITTLE part of the why.

i know that clean balls react differently to dirty balls(yea yea, shut up) because of the fact that they are dirty......i don't need to know the coefficient of friction or the rotational energy, just the fact that one is going to react differently than the other for that simple fact.

i know that draw happens for the simple reason that backspin is applied and the ball still has this spin when it contacts the object ball............thats all i need to know, nothing fancy.

K.I.S.S.

VAP
 
Read any billiard book and most will have the same stuff, all generalities.

People/ players have to adapt to their bodies. Some people have better physical make up for certain things. Look at Tiger Woods. The claim is that his body makes him great for golf. Look at Michael Phelps and his swimming ability. It is claimed that he has the body for it. People have to adjust to a certain style or activity to accomodate their bodies. What makes pool so great is that anyone can become a good player no matter what shape or size. There cannot be a cookie cutter one all fits all. The real great players will have the perfect ingredients that they have found to work for them.

Put it all together and to become great you need to practice, a good analytical mind, a good memory, stamina and have a passion for it, and make it as your main priority in life. And I think the most important feature that is not mention very often is being a gambler.
 
TheBook said:
And I think the most important feature that is not mention very often is being a gambler.
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depends on your definition of a gambler.........if you mean taking risks......yes you've got to take quite a few to play this game at the highest level.

if you're talking about playing for the cash.......there are quite a few pro players that don't play very well for money at all.

VAP
 
vapoolplayer said:
good observation woody, and dead on the money.

watch EVERY top player, they set(stop on the forward stroke), they pause(this is on the backstroke, some are long like fishers, some are short like keith) and before people say they don't freeze, remember its physically impossible not to stop the backstroke before the forward motion begins. they then finish the stroke, and freeze(stay down on the shot)

again, they all have different variations of the set pause finish freeze, but they still all do it.

oh, and RJ, i haven't had to disagree with you before, but i will on this one occasion. you said that if your stroke is the slightest bit off line you're screwed in snooker.............if you ever get a chance, watch keith play snooker, firing in 10 ft shots a 100 miles an hour.

VAP
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oh, and RJ, i haven't had to disagree with you before, but i will on this one occasion. you said that if your stroke is the slightest bit off line you're screwed in snooker.............if you ever get a chance, watch keith play snooker, firing in 10 ft shots a 100 miles an hour.


If K turned Snooker prof. tommorow, he would never get into the top 1000 in the world.
Never. Not with his action.

G
 
vapoolplayer said:
i have only had limited contact with any "certified" instructors.........so i may be a little biased........but i guess this thread is all about be biased, since it pertains to choosing one over the other.

the "certified" instructors, tend to teach EVERYONE the SAME. they have a specific pattern that they try to teach. (before i get bashed for this, i know there are exceptions, but i'm speaking in general)

the "certified" instructors, no matter which level a play is at seem to want to start them all the way over and make them what i call a "cookie cutter" player. i never actually paid a "certified" instructor, only talked to some (i will not mention) to see what they were all about. instantly before even really seeing me play, they wanted to jump right in and try to reteach what i was already doing. also alot of the "certified" instructors are "perfect stroke" preachers. i.e. everything has to be perfectly in line, no dropping the elbow, etc, etc. also, i get tired of organizations trying to recruit students like its a cult or something. saying things like "here at the (fill in the blank) we teach the such and such method, because everythin else is inferior" or "we'll teach you how the pro's aim" yet anytime you talk to a pro........they tell you the exact opposite.

on a positive side, i do see why this is helpful to the general pooplaying public, as it probably gives the average poolplayer the best chance to be an above average player.

as for the non "certified" instructors, these are the ones i've had the most experience with. from a local A player, to jimmy reid, to currently tony robles, and only a limited (although i hope will be much more) exposure with hal houle.(before anyone asks, the answer is no)

none of the above mentioned people that i have dealt with ever tried to teach me like i was just some average player off the street, and give me the same monologue they give everyone. with the exception of hal(since its over the phone) all of them watched me play FIRST, then decided where to begin. they also all understand that each player is different and may have a different stroke, ticks, rythm, etc, etc. all of them basically had the same attitude, if you can make the shot, and do what you want with the cue ball, then they didn't care if you stood on your head while you were shooting. i've also learned a great deal from watching keith play.

i also picked guys like jimmy and tony because they have the experience playing under pressure, in tournaments and action. i plan to be playing at the open/pro level in the near future, and i want to learn from guys who have been there and can tell me what was going thru their head, and how to overcome the negative thoughts that creep up when you're playing in the finals of the U.S. Open or the BCA Open.

also, call me a little funny, but i have somewhat of a mental issue about taking instruction from someone who doesn't have the background to back up the knowledge. (no offense meant to anyone here) but if someone that doesn't have ANY real competion experience starts talking about how to handle the pressure, i don't want to hear it.

the "certified" instructors also tend to be inside the box thinkers. i like to think outside the box, and most of the non "certified" instructors are more on my level of thinking.

i think that about sums up what differences i experienced, and what influenced me to make the choice i made in instructor/s.

thanks

VAP
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A good player tells you how HE does it.
A good coach tells you how YOU should do it.

G
 
woody_968 said:
...In some cases I would whole heartedly agree, and in others I would say in order to hit the next level some things may need to be changed.
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I think Monica Webb and Julie Kelly could be better players if their mechanics were better.

But what the hell do I know, I'm just a dumb league player from Ohio :rolleyes:
 
Gabber said:
A good player tells you how HE does it.
A good coach tells you how YOU should do it.

G
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and the good player/student takes what both of them told him, and makes his own style.

VAP
 
whitewolf said:
My other advice is that young people don't spend enough time watching the good players play. They don't want to learn anything. They want everything right now and think that just playing is going to do it for them.

Regards, WW
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some of the best advice for anyone that wants to play at a higher level. last year, i didn't play in any tournaments, but i was at the planet pool events regularly just watching. if you have events around you where top players play.........WATCH THEM and learn.

VAP
 
The thing is this...there are any # of sources from which to learn...watch a solid player on your league night...hit the room on sat or sun afternoon and sit with the 'old timers' playing straight, one pocket and three cushion...look for clinics or play the pro nights with your local house pro...I did one of these just last weekend with Johnny Archer...we didn't have all day, just a couple of hours and I was one of 5 people there...yet he was able in 20 mins to point out some things in my game and show/give me some suggestions...and bang I'm back of the pocket with a stroke/shot that was giving me trouble....

my 2c-
 
drivermaker said:
In the drug thread you were trying to differentiate a drugs effect by the words "enable" and "enhance" and I thought you were on the right track until you started stumbling and confusing yourelf by their meanings and usage. I still think you were on the right track.

(snip)
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Shall we go back to that thread?


drivermaker said:
(snip)
I'd also like to know what the certified instructors teach in the way of tuck and roll, backhand english, certain aiming systems, and other unorthodox manipulations and maneuvers that top players use. The answer is...THEY DON'T. It's not according to the book and the "why" or physics and geometry of it CANNOT be explained. Yet, it works.
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By using reasoning mixed with analogies, most anything can be explained and understood, as you demonstrated with your terms, "backhand english and tuck and roll." I agree with the rest of your post.

Jeff Livingston
 
Blackjack said:
I have no problem referring my students to instructors such as Tom Simpson, Jimmy Reid, Randy G, Mark Wilson, Roy Yamane, Ken Tewksbury, or Joe Tucker.It has always been my advice to never disclude instruction from any qualified instructor. You never know where the magic piece to the puzzle will be hidden.
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Hi Blackjack,
That speaks a TON about u.That is magnanimous.
Vagabond
 
randyg said:
DRIVERMAKER:

There are only two ways you can miss a shot!.....SPF-randyg
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Do you think all of the instruction gurus out there would agree with you on that? How about the ones right here on AZ?
 
Teacherman said:
Right or Left :D


Or better yet.........poor aim......poor stroke.
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Does the tip not touching the cloth fall under it's own category or is that a part of poor stroke? (I just GOTTA get that down pat)
 
Teacherman said:
Right or Left :D
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I speak from experience when I say there is a third way ... 'over' !

Dave, the King of "Big Draw" Scoops
 
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