different strokes

hanisch

Registered
i apologize for the length of this post, but i'm trying to exposit, as clearly as i can, a significant point which, as far as i know, has been severely mistreated in the pool world.

i have heard too many times from pool players, and i have read too many times in the pool literature, that you can achieve all the cue ball action you need with merely one stroke. so i've heard, and so i've read, it does not matter whether i use a long stroke or a short stroke, whether i have lots of follow-through or none at all, my cue ball will react in the same way. all i can do with my stroke is provide a linear speed and a contact point for my tip on the ball. and in doing so, i can achieve all possible combinations of linear and angular velocities. i don't believe this.

the justification of this "one stroke is all you need" thesis is usually made with two arguments. the first goes something like this: after the ball leaves your tip, the ball does not care if your tip follows through or not. no doubt, any reasonable person will agree with this. the problem with this argument, however, is that it implicitly assumes that there is no significant difference between the event of your tip first contacting the ball and the separate event of the ball leaving your tip. this brings us to the second argument usually made: the jacksonville experiments "demonstrated" that there is no significant difference between these two events. let's explore this a little deeper.

what the jacksonville experiments actually demonstrated (in relation to this discussion) was this: for the limited strokes tested, the time between these two events--let's call this the dwell time--was very small, about a millisecond. (i should mention that the jacksonville experiments were a great milestone in advancing our understanding. however, no experiment should yield conclusions thought to be definitive; advancement in any science involves constant constructive criticism of previous experiments leading to ever new, better experiments.) first, let's consider the first clause. the strokes tested must have been very limited. in "billiards digest" shamos wrote, "no matter how anyone stroked, the best we could do was to have the cue stick move at constant speed for the last few inches before it hits the ball. in fact, unless a very good stroke is used, the stick actually decelerates on the way in." why couldn't anyone produce a stroke that was accelerating at contact? there's no reason to think that this is physically impossible. in fact, i contend that top three-cushion players do this all the time. perhaps during the experiments, only perfect pendulum strokes were used. (for what it's worth, three-cushion players employ such pendulum strokes for only a minority of shots.) note that no elite players were used to produce the strokes tested.

let's now explore the second clause, namely that the dwell time is very small. this finding has been used to dismiss many hypotheses concerning what contributes to ball action (e.g. grip, follow-through, etc.). since only non-accelerating (or decelerating) strokes were tested, such dismissals are at best premature. to see why, we need to understand what happens during this very small dwell time.

if the tip is not accelerating at contact, we can view the contact between the tip and ball as a collision between two objects. when a non-accelerating object hits a stationary object, energy is transferred from the former to the latter. (if the kinetic energy is conserved, such a collision is said to be elastic. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastic_collision for a nice explanation.) what happens during the collision is very, very complicated. we need to know how the objects deform under stress, how the stress propagates, etc. to simplify all this, physicists use the concept of an impulse. an impulse is defined as the change in momentum of an object when a large force is applied over a very brief period of time. we can now say that, at best, the jacksonville experiments showed what the dwell time was for "impulsive strokes" (i.e. non-accelerating strokes). but what happens when the tip accelerates as it hits the ball? surely this is possible.

acceleration implies a force. when a force acts upon an object over a distance, a transfer of energy takes place. physicists refer to this transfer of energy as work. (see http://id.mind.net/~zona/mstm/physics/mechanics/energy/work/work.html for a good explanation.) i am contending that when a player produces an accelerating stroke, work is being done to the ball. if this is indeed happening, there should be a measurable dwell distance--the distance over which the ball travels while still in contact with the tip. (note that referring to the jacksonville experiments here is useless as no accelerating strokes were tested.) for these "working strokes" (i.e. accelerating strokes) it is the dwell distance, not the dwell time, that is relevant. in fact, the dwell time for working strokes may indeed be roughly the same as the dwell time for impulsive strokes. however, the dwell distance will be significantly greater for working strokes. in a working stroke, the tip is pushing the ball over a longer distance, but since the tip is accelerating, more distance will be covered in the same time interval. moreover, the deformations of the tip and ball is different for working strokes than it is for impulsive strokes. for working strokes, since the tip is accelerating, such compressions and decompressions may occur more quickly than for impulsive strokes. this is widely known for the collision between the strings of a tennis racket and a tennis ball. the dwell time is roughly five milliseconds for nearly all types of tennis strokes. but the dwell distance is much greater for those strokes where the racket accelerates through the ball.

if i am correct, that is, if top players routinely employ working strokes, then what has passed as conventional wisdom in poolrooms and in the pool literature must be reconsidered. it is my belief that a significant factor as to why top pool players are far more consistent than amateurs is that they "work" the cue ball a lot more; that is an accelerating stroke is more consistent than a non-accelerating one. furthermore, top three-cushion players are able to achieve the wide range of spin-to-speed ratios (at many varying speeds) that they do since they employ many different strokes, each with differing amounts of work, and some with only impulse.

i look forward to reading other thoughts on this.

william hanisch
 
Thanks for the read. I am a fan of the accelerating stroke, I've been working on it (especially soft shots!) for a while now. I'm no physicist, but there is clearly a difference between what you call 'working' and 'impulse' shots. My new philosophy is to use all 'working' strokes, it's helped the 'ole game some.

-s
 
Wonderful question and a great post!.......

on the most basic level I compare a pool stroke to a bat swing.. imagine what the baseball would do if the batter could stop the swing at the point of contact.... not alot right?... the act of a good follow through is most important.. true the cue only react to the millisecond of contact with the tip ..BUT the contact of the tip is EFFECTED by the amount of follow through.....

People can make wonderful things happen with the cue by any number of different strokes... the most important thing is the consistencty with which the cue ball is hit ... and the consistencey, conversly is the hardest part to capture in the game... once you make the cue ball react in a uniform way then you are WELL upon your way to becoming a player!!
 
hanisch said:
why couldn't anyone produce a stroke that was accelerating at contact? there's no reason to think that this is physically impossible. in fact, i contend that top three-cushion players do this all the time. perhaps during the experiments, only perfect pendulum strokes were used. (for what it's worth, three-cushion players employ such pendulum strokes for only a minority of shots.) note that no elite players were used to produce the strokes tested.

Are you suggesting that you can't accelerate at contact using the pendulum stroke? I don't see why that would be the case, I believe that is taught as part of the ideal stroke.
 
my two cents

The way I would think of it is (which is probably incorrect)
At the moment of contact (or millisecond ) the tip contacts the cueball the cue is pushed back with the same force the cue ball is pushed forward. I think the acceleration of the cue, how firmly it is held, the accereration of the body (or body) parts holding the cue etc. all directly effect the amount of force and length of contact on the cue ball (thus the spin)
 
this is way too lengthy and involved for my brain to comprehend right now,,,,but if jewett is isolating a stroke to a minute moment of contact, then he may as well post the experiment on every sport board because he's going to have to defend himself against pretty much every athlete who participates in golf, tennis, baseball, or any such sports.

i think the infinite nuances of a stroke and why it can't be reduced to a momentary pop can most clearly be illustrated in this anecdote. ginky once told me that when i stroke try to hit the ball 6 times. well,,,clearly that cannot be done or counted, but that put me in a mindset which changed the way i stroked through the ball and resulted in a better cb performance. to isolate a contact moment from the arc of the stroke is a bit pedantic, and if bob were to still break down what i did to that one instant and say "it's all the same" fails to address the synergy between mind and muscle.
 
There are different strokes for different shots.....

Example:

Standard Full Draw Shot: Longerish follow through

Jacked Up Draw Shot: Shorterish followthrough - If your follow through on a jacked up draw shot is too long, you actually kill the spin on the CB.

As far as acceleration and deceleration.....

I don't think this is something that should even be thought about....Thinking acceleration leads to a "jab" stroke...that actually causes a worse deceleration since all your speed is in the jab and then the cue drastically slows down from there.

I also don't think you need to think deceleration as this can cause you to "pull up" on your shots....

I think the only thing you should be concerned with is "smooth take away" & "smooth delivery" ...The rest should take care of itself.

BTW...Bob Jewett has a couple good articles on cue speed & different strokes.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1999-06.pdf
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-10.pdf

:)
 
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PKM said:
Are you suggesting that you can't accelerate at contact using the pendulum stroke? I don't see why that would be the case, I believe that is taught as part of the ideal stroke.

i think hanisch is saying there are many ways to stroke and they all affect the cb in their own particular way, and contrary to bob, he feels what you do before and/or after the contact makes a difference in cb performance.

i think.
 
BRKNRUN said:
As far as acceleration and deceleration.....

I don't think this is something that should even be thought about....Thinking acceleration leads to a "jab" stroke...that actually causes a worse deceleration since all your speed is in the jab and then the cue drastically slows down from there.

I also don't think you need to think deceleration as this can cause you to "pull up" on your shots....

I think the only thing you should be concerned with is "smooth take away" & "smooth delivery" ...The rest should take care of itself.


break&run,

i think you are confusing acceleration with jab. force is usually described as a push or a pull. force involves acceleration (F=ma). an accelerating stroke is therefore one that pushes the ball. that is, it's a long smooth stroke that doesn't let up on the force it delivers to the ball. a jab is a short, pokey stroke that acually decelerates as the tip contacts the ball.

william
 
If there is only momentary contact then why have a leather, chalked, cue tip? “Hitting” a cue ball with metal or wood would make no difference and one should get the same effect with a hammer or a cue stick. With a pool stick the tip deforms and stays in contact with the cue ball longer than a metal tip, thus performing additional “work.” That is how we get spin of various types.

BTW, this seems to be a reasonable justification for a "soft" tip.
 
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PKM said:
Are you suggesting that you can't accelerate at contact using the pendulum stroke? I don't see why that would be the case, I believe that is taught as part of the ideal stroke.


pkm,

according to pendulum stroke theory, as far as i know, you're suppose to make contact at the bottom of the pendulum, that is, when your arm is perpendicular to the ground. you cannot drive through the ball efficiently this way. it may be an appropriate stroke for some shots, but by no means is it for all, or even most shots. the top three-cushion players generally don't use a pendulum stroke. they only do so for a small handful of shots. as far as it being taught as ideal, well i can only say that this is part of my motivation for starting this thread.

william
 
hanisch said:
... you're suppose to make contact at the bottom of the pendulum, that is, when your arm is perpendicular to the ground. you cannot drive through the ball efficiently this way. ...
I believe that from the point of view of sports physiology/kinesiology, this is exactly wrong. I believe that a 90-degree angle between your forearm and your upper arm allows you to exert the maximum force and therefore the maximum acceleration in that position. So, if you really did want to hit the ball when the stick was accelerating, as opposed to when it was moving fastest, the pendulum position (90-degrees at impact) would be the best choice.

Is there anyone here who actually knows about kinesiology? And/or biceps efficiency/function?

That having been said, I think for lots of reasons given in previous threads and articles, that you are best off on nearly all shots to hit the cue ball at the peak speed of the stick. That is well after peak acceleration.
 
hanisch said:
pkm,

according to pendulum stroke theory, as far as i know, you're suppose to make contact at the bottom of the pendulum, that is, when your arm is perpendicular to the ground. you cannot drive through the ball efficiently this way. it may be an appropriate stroke for some shots, but by no means is it for all, or even most shots. the top three-cushion players generally don't use a pendulum stroke. they only do so for a small handful of shots. as far as it being taught as ideal, well i can only say that this is part of my motivation for starting this thread.

william

I'm just trying to understand your reasons, why do you claim you cannot drive the through the ball efficiently or that it is not appropriate for most shots? I don't know about 3-cushion so I can't speak to that. But if you complete the pendulum motion and bring your forearm forward, which drives the cue through the ball, what would cause you to believe this is inefficient?

Edit: Bob beat me to it and is more knowledgeable than I am. He also wrote an article about the pendulum stroke (easy to find)
 
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hanisch said:
break&run,

i think you are confusing acceleration with jab. force is usually described as a push or a pull. force involves acceleration (F=ma). an accelerating stroke is therefore one that pushes the ball. that is, it's a long smooth stroke that doesn't let up on the force it delivers to the ball. a jab is a short, pokey stroke that acually decelerates as the tip contacts the ball.

william

Actually I am not confusing it at all... Re-read what I posted....I think you will see I said pretty much the same thing as you did above
 
BRKNRUN said:
Actually I am not confusing it at all... Re-read what I posted....I think you will see I said pretty much the same thing as you did above

yes, you are correct. you wrote 'Thinking acceleration leads to a "jab" stroke.' i (mis)read it as 'Think of acceleration as leading to a "jab" stroke.' i apologize.
 
I gotta disagree.

Bob Jewett said:
I believe that from the point of view of sports physiology/kinesiology, this is exactly wrong. I believe that a 90-degree angle between your forearm and your upper arm allows you to exert the maximum force and therefore the maximum acceleration in that position.
The 90 degree angle should not be formed by the forearm and upper arm because everyone is built differently. Your grip hand should be directly under your elbow while you are in the set position. If done correctly your forearm and cue will form a 90 degree angle at the point of contact.
 
I did a search to see if there were concrete definitions of the different types of pool strokes and if they had names. (ie; pendulum, piston, etc ) Obviously came to mind when read yet another "pendulum" post.

I stumbled into this thread which does not really address the answers I was looking for (stroke names) but... It was a very interesting thread....

SO........

bump2.jpg
 
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