Distance and patterns...

[The Renfro]

Tonight I actually got to practice for 2 hours... I was reminded fairly quickly of how rare that is anymore.... One thing that jumped out was that I am still keeping my angles but I am accepting longer shots than I used to which would cause problems by the end of the rack... I'd be shooting 7 ft shots by the time I got down to just the 9 and 10ball left....

I tightened up my cueball and tried to keep the shots to 3 diamonds or closer on average and half table at the longest unless I had no choice....

I figured someone out there might have an idea as to how much distance really impacts precision requirements as far as position play is concerned... I was not MISSING the longer shots I just was not able to keep the cueball on the string and snowball positionally by the end of the rack....

I am pretty sure I would have been even money or even a slight dog on the 10ball ghost settling for the longer shots and was the favorite playing tighter positions... I have always believed angle > distance as far as running out racks is concerned..

I am thinking that not being able to bring my A game because of lack of practice time has me looking at things maybe a little bit more realistically...

Best I can figure is every diamond over 3 was adding about 10%-15% in control issues.. Stop shots and easy position shots not included...

Chris

 

[Slasher]

Not sure of your question really as it's not clear to me but I will take a stab anyway
Any cueing errors are magnified exponentially by distance but you already knew that
You can 1. improve your cueing accuracy and 2. try not to make the long shot too big in your mind.
I often see players buzzing along until they run into a long shot and then start waffling around taking too much time finding a way to miss only to go on to miss by yards and or miss position because they compromised the work on the cue ball to simplify the shot.
All shots use the same amount of calories, some are just a lower %

The other option is to work on your zone play, the middle zone is never more than 4ft from anything

 

[ENGLISH!]

Chris,

Since my eye accident more than 20 years ago I always want the shortest & easiest shot that I can get.

To me the key to getting that is speed control. For me it is speed control with english.

I almost never settle for anything but what I want. When you are 'close' it is easier to get close again.

I'm sure you know what I mean. I just wanted to remind you...to not settle.

Regards,

 

[The Renfro]

Not sure of your question really as it's not clear to me but I will take a stab anyway
Any cueing errors are magnified exponentially by distance but you already knew that
You can 1. improve your cueing accuracy and 2. try not to make the long shot too big in your mind.
I often see players buzzing along until they run into a long shot and then start waffling around taking too much time finding a way to miss only to go on to miss by yards and or miss position because they compromised the work on the cue ball to simplify the shot.
All shots use the same amount of calories, some are just a lower %

The other option is to work on your zone play, the middle zone is never more than 4ft from anything

No worries... The cueing accuracy for shot making is fine I just don't play enough to control the rock like I used to at long distances..

That will likely take care of itself when I get time to actually devote to practicing again...

I do agree that the question wasn't quite clear so here we go.....

The heart of the question is in percentages... Without knowing my true percentages now since practice is not an option and basing my selections on percentages that were formed when I was practicing a ton..... I was looking for a percentage adjustment for the longer shots... As in, this is supposed to be an 80% shot to make and carry position but I am 5 diamonds away... Should I consider it a 60% because of the distance 2 extra diamonds at 10% control error per diamond...... Or should I just expect to miss position by +/-6" if the cueball is traveling 3 feet for shape and the extra 2 diamonds create a 20% control issue...

I realize it is an odd question but if you calculate the percentages off the shot like the first option I will be playing safe in instances where my control may be suspect....

IF the error is calculated as the amount I may be off playing position then if the window isn't smaller than the error I should be shooting the shot....

A 6" error could be + or - so the position zone will be a foot long instead of 3-4 inches I can manage when I am closer to my work...... As long as I have room to land the cueball the shot would still be 80%

I recall somewhere the discussion that for every degree you elevate you lose a degree of accuracy... Koehler had permissible error for making shots based on distances.....

I was simply looking for some idea of expected % control loss as distance increases and wondering if it's at the end of the equation since it is control and not accuracy that seems to be effected....

At 7 feet I am looking for a place to hide these days if position is anything but natural...... I am wondering if I should be looking sooner than 7 feet but I realize it's likely a personal answer that relates to my percentages so there may no clear right or wrong answer aside from I need to get more time back on the table......

Maybe that makes more sense... maybe not LOL

Chris

 

[Slasher]

Okay I understand your question now however I see this as negative approach and refer to my original answer, you are treating long distance shots as "hard" shots and that's not the mindset for success imo.

I may be seeing it from a different perspective because I pot long very well and it has to be very low value for me to refuse it and play safe, to a fault I might add. I approach them as a tasty challenge cause when they go in it's a boost to my confidence and it often changes my opponents game.

You are probably correct in the assumption their is no clear answer and that the answer lies with you and your self evaluation.

 

[allanpsand]

In essence, there is no real difference in a shot whether the OB is three diamonds away or six diamonds away - except in your mind.

Here is a trick to help overcome the presumption that far shots are tougher than close shots.

1. On facing a distance shot (CB to OB), pretend the CB is at the half way point between the two balls. Get down on the shot with this assumption.

2. Line up and calculate your shot.

3. Then rise up, keeping the cue stick on the aiming line, and get down behind the CB.

4. Confirm the line with a couple practice strokes, then execute the shot.

This trick will significantly increase your success percentage.

 

[The Renfro]

Okay I understand your question now however I see this as negative approach and refer to my original answer, you are treating long distance shots as "hard" shots and that's not the mindset for success imo.

I may be seeing it from a different perspective because I pot long very well and it has to be very low value for me to refuse it and play safe, to a fault I might add. I approach them as a tasty challenge cause when they go in it's a boost to my confidence and it often changes my opponents game.

You are probably correct in the assumption their is no clear answer and that the answer lies with you and your self evaluation.

In essence, there is no real difference in a shot whether the OB is three diamonds away or six diamonds away - except in your mind.

Here is a trick to help overcome the presumption that far shots are tougher than close shots.

1. On facing a distance shot (CB to OB), pretend the CB is at the half way point between the two balls. Get down on the shot with this assumption.

2. Line up and calculate your shot.

3. Then rise up, keeping the cue stick on the aiming line, and get down behind the CB.

4. Confirm the line with a couple practice strokes, then execute the shot.

This trick will significantly increase your success percentage.

Both of these answers are appreciated but I am looking for something more statistical in nature.....

Controlling the table at this point is a must in that a few errors is all it takes to lose a race to 9..... The last race I actually got to play was a race to 7 and at 5-0 up I made my first mistake... 2 more mistakes and I lose 7-6...

If I shoot shots just based on the percentage I have of just making the ball I will pretty much get toasted alive... Missing can be expected from time to time but position errors tend to build up over the course of a run or you end up having to shoot some type of recovery shot to get back in line... Usually the recovery will require shooting something at long distance and/or having to move the cueball considerable distances....

In my last practice session I realized I was not controlling whitey very well at longer distances currently causing the shots to end up getting longer and longer by the end of the rack... Instead of shooting the recovery shots based simply on my ability to make them I was looking for a new way to look at them and evaluate shooting vs ducking...

Position play has been in the back seat to shot making for most of my life in that the percentages of making the shot were weighed much heavier than getting perfect position so I was looking for a way to weight the position play more heavily into my preshot analysis..

My idea of taking the control error off the shot making percentage seemed too conservative to me so I decided to use it at the end of the equation and factor the control error into my probable position area... I thought perhaps someone had done some type of statistical analysis along the same lines.....

Chris

 

[scottjen26]

I think you are on the right track Chris. I was doing this in my own game, especially when learning and refining Pro One and SEE. I was focusing more on making the shot and staying in line but not necessarily getting as close to the ball as I used to. I also felt like I could make anything from anywhere, so I wasn't putting the premium on getting more efficient shape.

I'm much more aware of it now, especially after watching a lot of matches online. There are certainly times when you have to accept a longer shot and just make it, when the risk of getting closer is too great. But doing that too much is certainly going to lower your overall runout percentage. Sometimes we are afraid of overrunning position, but I don't think that happens as much as leaving the cue ball too far away.

Certainly if your stroke is straight and your aim is true, shooting 7' shots vs 3' shots is no different. But two things come into play that make the shot a lower percentage.

First, just the overall margin for error with the increased distance, and the accompanying higher difficulty of gauging speed for simple position. It's just easier to hit a perfect stop shot or small draw or follow from 2 or 3 feet away than from 7, smaller margin of error and we simply don't typically practice them as much from longer distances.

Bigger than this I think is the increased difficulty at distance when spin is needed for position. Increased distance increases the difficulty greatly, controlling the effects of squirt, curve, etc. is just harder with longer shots. But if a good player is 2 or 3 feet away they can pretty much do whatever they want with the cue ball.


How much is the impact? Not sure. Probably less for pros or better players, more of an impact as the player's skill level decreases. I would estimate 5 - 15% per shot, depending on the shot, and given previous discussions on runout percentages this can definitely have a serious impact on your overall runouts.

Scott

 

[alphadog]

Tonight I actually got to practice for 2 hours... I was reminded fairly quickly of how rare that is anymore.... One thing that jumped out was that I am still keeping my angles but I am accepting longer shots than I used to which would cause problems by the end of the rack... I'd be shooting 7 ft shots by the time I got down to just the 9 and 10ball left....

I tightened up my cueball and tried to keep the shots to 3 diamonds or closer on average and half table at the longest unless I had no choice....

I figured someone out there might have an idea as to how much distance really impacts precision requirements as far as position play is concerned... I was not MISSING the longer shots I just was not able to keep the cueball on the string and snowball positionally by the end of the rack....

I am pretty sure I would have been even money or even a slight dog on the 10ball ghost settling for the longer shots and was the favorite playing tighter positions... I have always believed angle > distance as far as running out racks is concerned..

I am thinking that not being able to bring my A game because of lack of practice time has me looking at things maybe a little bit more realistically...

Best I can figure is every diamond over 3 was adding about 10%-15% in control issues.. Stop shots and easy position shots not included...

Chris

I am no instructor but you are really asking about -Length increasing difficulty of getting
shape? Progressive practice drills will answer this for you. Everyone is unique so this would be true stat. for you.
P.S. I enjoy your posts/input on AZ!

 

[The Renfro]

I am no instructor but you are really asking about -Length increasing difficulty of getting
shape? Progressive practice drills will answer this for you. Everyone is unique so this would be true stat. for you.
P.S. I enjoy your posts/input on AZ!

Well I am looking for a short cut LOL... I used to do a lot of progressive drills but I don't have the time right now to get any real practice in... I was looking for a simple factor to add to longer shots to get out of the "ahh hell I can make that... fire" decision tree =)

Most of my internal percentages are based on that tree... whats the percent I can make it? I am trying to be more realistic and determine what the percentage is of making it and getting perfect position....

Short answer... I need to get on the table and hit the shots and get my unique stats... Until then I was looking for a bandaid that may not exist.....

Shoot em straight and may all your racks be tight,

Chris

 

[The Renfro]

I think you are on the right track Chris. I was doing this in my own game, especially when learning and refining Pro One and SEE. I was focusing more on making the shot and staying in line but not necessarily getting as close to the ball as I used to. I also felt like I could make anything from anywhere, so I wasn't putting the premium on getting more efficient shape.

I'm much more aware of it now, especially after watching a lot of matches online. There are certainly times when you have to accept a longer shot and just make it, when the risk of getting closer is too great. But doing that too much is certainly going to lower your overall runout percentage. Sometimes we are afraid of overrunning position, but I don't think that happens as much as leaving the cue ball too far away.

Certainly if your stroke is straight and your aim is true, shooting 7' shots vs 3' shots is no different. But two things come into play that make the shot a lower percentage.

First, just the overall margin for error with the increased distance, and the accompanying higher difficulty of gauging speed for simple position. It's just easier to hit a perfect stop shot or small draw or follow from 2 or 3 feet away than from 7, smaller margin of error and we simply don't typically practice them as much from longer distances.

Bigger than this I think is the increased difficulty at distance when spin is needed for position. Increased distance increases the difficulty greatly, controlling the effects of squirt, curve, etc. is just harder with longer shots. But if a good player is 2 or 3 feet away they can pretty much do whatever they want with the cue ball.


How much is the impact? Not sure. Probably less for pros or better players, more of an impact as the player's skill level decreases. I would estimate 5 - 15% per shot, depending on the shot, and given previous discussions on runout percentages this can definitely have a serious impact on your overall runouts.

Scott

Scott,

This is not the 1st time you have posted something that makes me want to ask dear old dad if he was ever a milkman/mailman down in Jacksonville LOL....

The thought processes are definitely similar... I appreciate the reply...

Chris

 

[FranCrimi]

Chris, some players would prefer to set up longer on a shot to get the preferred angle, like Johnny Archer, as opposed to others who would rather accept sharp angles and stay closer to the ob, like Alan Hopkins. Both are equally as successful at what they do.

Statistics are helpful in theory, but then there's the human element that we can't measure. It's about guts, courage, mental toughness, and what turns you on, and all those other things that no robot or slide rule can calculate.

Ask yourself, what gives you a spark? What makes you smile? Then head in that direction.

For me, the tougher the position puzzle, the more I smile. I love challenges.

 

[The Renfro]

Chris, some players would prefer to set up longer on a shot to get the preferred angle, like Johnny Archer, as opposed to others who would rather accept sharp angles and stay closer to the ob, like Alan Hopkins. Both are equally as successful at what they do.

Statistics are helpful in theory, but then there's the human element that we can't measure. It's about guts, courage, mental toughness, and what turns you on, and all those other things that no robot or slide rule can calculate.

Ask yourself, what gives you a spark? What makes you smile? Then head in that direction.

For me, the tougher the position puzzle, the more I smile. I love challenges.

Thanks for the insight Fran.... I love the challenges as well which at times gets me into trouble LOL.... It's really kind of funny that I can watch a professional match and be correct on 90percent of the shots they will shoot but as soon as the cue is in my hands I am shooting things I know none of them would ever shoot..... I just watched a video from last night of me goofing around with some friends and saw ALLLLLL of the safeties I didn't even think of while playing LOL...

I think of this as another step in my evolution but I will definitely keep your thoughts in mind.... Whats the fun in playing if the way you play doesn't trip your trigger or give you a spark??

Chris

 

[FranCrimi]

Thanks for the insight Fran.... I love the challenges as well which at times gets me into trouble LOL.... It's really kind of funny that I can watch a professional match and be correct on 90percent of the shots they will shoot but as soon as the cue is in my hands I am shooting things I know none of them would ever shoot..... I just watched a video from last night of me goofing around with some friends and saw ALLLLLL of the safeties I didn't even think of while playing LOL...

I think of this as another step in my evolution but I will definitely keep your thoughts in mind.... Whats the fun in playing if the way you play doesn't trip your trigger or give you a spark??

Chris

I bet if you were playing a tournament match, or if there were 300 people watching you as opposed to goofing around with your friends. your choices would be very different. We all do it.

 

[allanpsand]

It's really kind of funny that I can watch a professional match and be correct on 90percent of the shots they will shoot but as soon as the cue is in my hands I am shooting things I know none of them would ever shoot..... I just watched a video from last night of me goofing around with some friends and saw ALLLLLL of the safeties I didn't even think of while playing LOL...

Chris

Believe it or not, the situations you just specifically identified are the differences between playing on the table (tactics) and playing above the table (strategy). It's like the difference of being on the battlefield, directing a platoon, and at headquarters, directing whole divisions.

You can easily win against a better player more often than you would believe. When you know your opponent, select shots that play away from his strengths and into his weaknesses. This is straightforward application of advice in the "Art of War versus Art of Pool".

When you start your pre-shot analysis, include some consideration about what your opponent can and can't do. Play the table with some thoughts about competence (yours and opponent's), and you can win more often.