DO ANY SNOOKER TABLES HAVE DIAMONDS FOR MARKERS ON THEM?

[Imotv8u]

I think that systems would work fine on a diamond-marked snooker table but the counts would be slightly different. Obviously, one-cushion kicks are close to the standard 1:2 ratio. I think corner-5 would translate fine but the third-rail targets will be different. I wouldn't be surprised if the plus-2 system turned out to be more consistent on a snooker table than a pool or carom table.

I have heard snooker rails described as "more accurate" than pool rails but without marking diamonds, that would be hard to measure.

I'm not saying that diamonds should be added to snooker tables. I'm just saying that there is nothing inherent in a snooker table that would prevent (modified, adjusted) diamond systems from working.

On the only 12 foot snooker table I ever play on, which isn’t napped cloth, I’ve found the “ spot on the wall” system to work great for two and three rail kicks. It takes a little more work to find all the spots since there aren’t any diamond’s except the baulk line marks but it seems to work about the same as most pool tables that I play on.

 

[garczar]

is there a way to determine what ball size is correct? when it's together I can of course just bounce the balls and see if they launch or seem to be driven downwards.
I know there is a relationship between rail height and ball size. the rails are snooker style. in other words rounded near the pockets and not triangular, I think the rubber will be sort of L shaped. The cloth and rails look real nice so Ill try them as they are but I'm unsure of the age, It could have been covered up for 30 years basically.

I did get the frame of the table which is not made to disassemble into my living room. WOW what a heavy brute that frame is. I mounted the legs, installed the cross rails, checked level. it has a slight bend overall, maybe 1/16 end to end.. the middle is higher so that's ok, easier to deal with than low in the middle. I can level the middle slate and then shim and level the ends to suit.

I transported the slates from my van onto the front lawn by myself with rollers and planks and determination. I covered them up and ready to go up the steps and into the house. I might need help to lift the slates.

the 1" slates have backer frames, like picture frames , with biscuits or mortise and tenon joints. Some parts were a bit rotten and punky so Ill fabricate what I need to. all the parts have matching numbers. can the numbers give tell of the date of manufacture somehow?

I had to think why the table frame looked solid so why would the backers be rotting? nothing else seemed water damaged really. i reasoned that maybe the slates were stored for some part of it's life on a damp concrete floor. I'll plan to rip some good dry maple to the exact same dimensions and just replace what I need to. near the backer boards there is a repwood form to shape where the felt stretches over near the pockets. It basically hide glue and wood dust that was formed to shape. Ill try to keep as much of that as I can. I can probably use epoxy and wood dust to form any missing bits. one was a little broken but I have the piece so I can glue it back together. I can make all new wood parts if necessary but most might be ok. If it's not too bad maybe I should keep what I can as it has the serial numbers stamped in which is part of it's originality..
someone sprayed the whole exterior of the frame with a primer or something , it looks like particleboard but it was some sort of spray coating, and they put dark shellac over it. whatever it is it does dissolve with thinners or stripper.. so it wasn't' a huge mess like polyurethane or paint would be.
there is mahogany veneer over all the sides of the table under the finish job/ I removed a patch to have a look at what I was into..
I considered stripping it and repairing any missing veneer or just re veneering the whole thing, legs too, but it looks like a long refinishing job to do it right. I decided I'll just try using it for now.. the wood finish wont affect the way it works and the top rails look nice. Maybe I can take all that on when I'm retired.

I dont know about the value. there are a lot of big 12' tables around here being offered for free because real estate values are completely nuts and few have rooms bg enough.. I felt this one was a bit special.
I love antiques so it fits into my theme, and I like playing snooker on a larger Burroughs and watts table a friend has which is about 10 years later It has similar style rails. the pockets have a lift lever thing so you can draw the balls out of the net from underneath. mine just has leather reproduction nets. That table has iron backers on the rails, they are very heavy in themselves whereas this one has bolts that tie the slate to the rails instead. all that super heavy structure should make it quite silent and nice to play on. I want to learn more about carom billiards, or english billiards too so it seems good for that.

in looking at similar pictures most similar tables have fancy embellishments along the rails in the location of the slate bolts. this one has covers so I do not know if it had any fancy bits there or if they are lost. some tables seem to have some egg and dart or similar fanciness along the bottom inch or so . If mine had that it is lost or removed. the shape resembles all the other similar models from around 1908/ It might be a newport or wellington, Its similar. I dont think the legs have the extra bolts which was a way of making a differentiation.

I think the frame style stemmed from a short lived texas manufacturer that Brunswick-Balke-Colleneder bought out. I'm not sure where they were all manufactured but I did find a pic with that Texas manufacturer's name on it and that picture looks the same as the one at the top of the page. here:

The Newport: Antique Brunswick Pool/Billiards Table for Sale

The Newport from Brunswick-Balke-Collender Co. is an antique billiards table with an massive design, similar to the Saratoga in style, with four robust, thick legs. It is a good serviceable pool table that has been restored by Billiard Restoration Service. Call or email for pricing & availability.

www.billiardrestoration.com

perhaps the machinery was moved to a Brunswick Balke Collender factory?

there is some good info on those Burroughes and watts tables here :

Burroughes & Watts Canada , Antique Billiards & Snooker Tables

The pioneers of pool and builders of billiards! Burroughes and Watts have had an illustrious history stemming back to 1836 in England at the cusp of the Victorian era. Their history as a part of the early heritage of billiards and snooker sports is the stuff of legends. Even though…

www.custombilliards.com

I'm sure you're coming with some good info here but in all honesty a lot of us just skip these mini-novel length posts. I see one that looks like the front page of the Times and i don't stop.

 

[snookered_again]

Sure, I guess we read what interests us, I tend to not concern myself with the long political threads or the current TV champions but some are interested in that. My post was more about antique pool tables.. The move and installation of this one was particularly interesting to me and I'm interested in learning more about Brunswick Balke Collender's history.

So far I replaced some of the punky edges and things, scarfed in new wood where I felt it was needed. staple strips basically.. on this table it has a wooden part where the ball enters the pocket, this affects the shelf. It is in fact a wooden shelf.. it has a slope down into the pocket. two were had made more recently, they are a unique shape and may not be formed exactly right. I think I will try to make some templates of the pockets that seem original and make a closer comparison.

someone asked if they pockets may have been added as this table was available with or without pockets.. It is so old that Some like it were sold as carom tables and later modified to have pockets as the new " pool tables" were becoming popular and replacing pocketless carom tables.


the slate , the frame and all the wooden parts have a serial number stamp and they all match so no parts appear to have bene swapped or replaced.

after studying my table more I think it is original , just a couple parts were replaced and made by hand.
Ive never seen or heard of pockets that have a wooden part between the actual pocket and the slate. I dont want to adjust the width of the shelf or pocket opening but I'd like to see that it's as accurate as possible , so they play as close to original as possible.

do any other tables have wood parts between the slate and the pocket itself?
another thing I found was that this table had thousands of tiny staples. they are only about 1/8" crown. I looked to see if I could even buy staples or a stapler with that narrow of a crown, Did not find much, lots seem to use air powered or electric upholstery staplers. I may have seen tiny staple in antique picture frames.

what I found interesting is that I could tell that through the table's history , it had it's felt replaced and I think always by the same professional with the little Itty bitty staples. When he removed the felt he ripped it off and left them behind. I removed all of them. I could even see his stapling habits a bit as I could find them grouped together in similar ways from successive recovering.

found a few really old furniture tacks too. when old furniture was recovered the upholsterers put tacks in their mouth and dispensed them to a magnetic tack hammer, It was commonplace, they needed a hand to hold the cloth tight and the other to work their tack hammer. I guess staplers weren't' very common in the 1800's .. I did purchase some boxes of tacks to do older furniture restorations. I see no reason in trying to duplicate that though as they cannot be seen iand if I were to sell the table the cloth would come off anyway. the tacks sometimes got swallowed and they were blued to make them sterile, the antidote to swallowing tacks is to eat a bunch of cotton !


I wonder why I never see this size of staples today, they seem really useful.

 

[snookered_again]

So I always thought that any pool or snooker table was twice the length as the width on the playing surface

I don’t have my rails in yet and the slates aren’t pushed up tight yet but by estimating where they are I’m getting about 100 inches long X 48 inches wide .

96 inches is 8’ so it’s about 8’4”

The length of this really old Brunswick balke collender table is a bit longer than twice it’s width !

Maybe that changes things as all these known play patterns are a little different than they would be if the length was actually equal to double the width

Each rail has 3 diamonds between the pockets
The diamonds are diamond shaped ivory inlay

On another 1920s or 30’s 6x12 table I play on it just has one diamond between each pocket on that table they are just small circular dots.

The pockets all have wood liners so where the ball falls off the slate there is wood to protect the slate
Two corners at the head of the table were pretty carefully made by a previous owner. Newer wood was used . Maybe they went broken or missing
I took patterns off the bottom corners and I found the profile of the newer replacements wasn’t the same.

The shelf was too wide in comparison

I’m filing down the wood to match the ones that are old and original , basically the patterns should be a mirror image.
It seems they did a pretty good job of fitting them but didn’t take the time to shape the profile quite right ..
I’ll fix that, just found it interesting..

The side pockets and bottom two corners have the original wood and seem fine.. it’s of course darkened after 100 years and has many staple holes

I found a lot of staples that were used to hold previous felts , only about 1/8 crown and maybe 3/16 depth . Tiny !

I’ve never seen either staples or a gun to drive them so small.

Tacks might be more original I do have a couple boxes of tiny tacks used in upholstery . Old furniture used tacks not staples
I’m not sure at what date staples became invented or in common use . Maybe turn of the century ?

. I did find a few tacks, I suspect that tacks were original and staples were used later on when they became invented , or used more commonly.

Evidence shows patterns so I know there was a guy back in the early days that tore off the felt , leaving his staples in, he did not take time to remove them all ., when he was replacing the felt and he had worked out a routine of stapling .. the result was groups of many tiny remaining staples concentrated in certain areas , it shows he was always using a defined pattern . From that I can tell it was the same guy and a professional who did it time and time again

This thing has some real history to it . It was made around the time the CPR built railway stations and hotels in every city across Canada .. maybe it was in one of those hotels .

I can just use common t50’s if it’s ever moved to a new home the cloth us coming off anyway ..

No glue was ever used to attach the cloth

 

[Flakeandrun]

Played snooker since my dad first trusted me to enter the club without being an idiot or doing dumb stuff (12). Not once in my life have I ever seen markers on cushions. Not in coaching, practice table or match table.
Occasionally my coach would make marks, or discuss how to split cushions/think in zones. But never seen a table with markers like a pool table.

Have seen lines/markings that correspond with the baulk line occasionally.

 

[Renegade_56]

You can add your own sights, as I did on my 10 foot 1966 Victor.

 

[Flakeandrun]

You can add your own sights, as I did on my 10 foot 1966 Victor.

So weird seeing this called a 'snooker' table.
I'd only learned about different versions of snooker recently. The American version actually looks/sounds quite entertaining to play

 

[Renegade_56]

So weird seeing this called a 'snooker' table.
I'd only learned about different versions of snooker recently. The American version actually looks/sounds quite entertaining to play

why, the only difference is that in American Snooker you have to hit a ball and a rail to avoid a foul, whereas the europeans just "roll up" on a ball for safety,,,,,,,,,,,, looks pretty easy but they get great applause for it.

 

[Bob Jewett]

why, the only difference is that in American Snooker you have to hit a ball and a rail to avoid a foul, whereas the europeans just "roll up" on a ball for safety,,,,,,,,,,,, looks pretty easy but they get great applause for it.

There are some other differences as well. I think it's time to abandon American Snooker. I also think it was a bad idea for the English to make up their own rules for eight ball.

 

[Renegade_56]

There are some other differences as well. I think it's time to abandon American Snooker. I also think it was a bad idea for the English to make up their own rules for eight ball.

Well, I don't know about that, it's not a bad game either way. American Snooker isn't that big anyway and once you start changing stuff it never stops, look at 9 ball, 10 ball, even one pocket. Leave things alone I say.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Well, I don't know about that, it's not a bad game either way. American Snooker isn't that big anyway and once you start changing stuff it never stops, look at 9 ball, 10 ball, even one pocket. Leave things alone I say.

Yes, but they could have left it alone a long time ago and used regular snooker rules. Maybe someone was afraid they were going to get sued by whoever owned the rules of original snooker.

 

[Flakeandrun]

Yes, but they could have left it alone a long time ago and used regular snooker rules. Maybe someone was afraid they were going to get sued by whoever owned the rules of original snooker.

America always loved to have their own version of things... that way they can be the best.... Hasn't always worked out that way.
There are numerous differences between American snooker and snooker. From equipment, to rules. It's similar, but not the same.

I'd say English pool is a game in its own right. With quite a large player following.

American snooker? Can't say the same from what I have seen (maybe at one place in time... although it does look like a fun/different challenge)

 

[Flakeandrun]

why, the only difference is that in American Snooker you have to hit a ball and a rail to avoid a foul, whereas the europeans just "roll up" on a ball for safety,,,,,,,,,,,, looks pretty easy but they get great applause for it.

Well, the table size plays a part in that... Not to mention the actually strategy.... A roll-up, can have a complex and sincere strategy behind it. The applause probably wouldn't be for a random roll-up... it would be for an appreciation of whatever strategy is at play given the situation of the game.

 

[snookered_again]

so a few questions,, some may seem like dumb questions.. but a question in itself isn't animate, therefore it can't be dumb right ? ;-)


what defines a snooker table? each manufacturer has slightly different pocket and cushion designs. In general I would say that snooker tables use L shaped rubber and a 8 or 9 ball table uses a triangular shaped cushion.

its hard to see but does that "Victor table" (above) have triangular rubber?

a snooker table may have a rounded shape near the pockets, and corner pockets that are a lot harder to make than 8 or 9 ball. an 8 ball table has a more angular than rounded shape near the corner pockets.
a snooker table generally has thicker felt which has a nap whereas a 8 ball table will have a faster felt.

many tables are designed to play either pool or billiards. Many were supplied with 2 sets of balls so are they 8 ball tables with snooker balls or are they some sort of hybrid?
A lot of typical 70's tables were like that and sold for home use through department stores. typially cheaper and often with no slate.

in general a snooker table wil use smaller balls and cues might be 10 mm diameter, whereas a 8 ball table may have larger balls and 13 mm , or 1/2" cue tips.

You can play snooker on a gold crown but it isn't really what I would think of as a snooker table, most wouldn't play 8 ball on a 12' snooker table with its difficult pockets. Some may choose to.

a traditional snooker table is 12' long but many are smaller.
My Brunswick Balke Collendar table has cushions like a snooker table, but may actually pre-date the popularity of snooker so then is it fair to call it a snooker table? it's got an 8'4" x 48" playing surface. to my knowledge they went from carom , to tables with pockets , which mine is but snooker became popular later, in the 1930's and perhaps it was designed for a game more like straight pool.

it was sold as either carom ( no pockets) or pool ( with pockets). It does not use triangular rubber , it is L shaped and the pockets are rounded like that of a snooker table.

what is a chinese snooker table? I hear the term being thrown about,, maybe a smaller version? not sure.
What is the difference between a British snooker table and a US snooker table ?
Is there one?
Ive heard but not seen that snooker is popular in England and real estate is high so there may be quite a number of downsized snooker tables. maybe 7 ' snooker tables, is this true?


funny question but what exactly is pool? is it any game with cues and balls? is it not pool if the table has no pockets? is snooker pool? I would think bumper pool is pool.. some seem to define "snooker" and "pool" as two different games.

perhaps terminology varies a little by area or country of origin?

 

[Renegade_56]

so a few questions,, some may seem like dumb questions.. but a question in itself isn't animate, therefore it can't be dumb right ? ;-)


what defines a snooker table? each manufacturer has slightly different pocket and cushion designs. In general I would say that snooker tables use L shaped rubber and a 8 or 9 ball table uses a triangular shaped cushion.

its hard to see but does that "Victor table" (above) have triangular rubber?

a snooker table may have a rounded shape near the pockets, and corner pockets that are a lot harder to make than 8 or 9 ball. an 8 ball table has a more angular than rounded shape near the corner pockets.
a snooker table generally has thicker felt which has a nap whereas a 8 ball table will have a faster felt.

many tables are designed to play either pool or billiards. Many were supplied with 2 sets of balls so are they 8 ball tables with snooker balls or are they some sort of hybrid?
A lot of typical 70's tables were like that and sold for home use through department stores. typially cheaper and often with no slate.

in general a snooker table wil use smaller balls and cues might be 10 mm diameter, whereas a 8 ball table may have larger balls and 13 mm , or 1/2" cue tips.

You can play snooker on a gold crown but it isn't really what I would think of as a snooker table, most wouldn't play 8 ball on a 12' snooker table with its difficult pockets. Some may choose to.

a traditional snooker table is 12' long but many are smaller.
My Brunswick Balke Collendar table has cushions like a snooker table, but may actually pre-date the popularity of snooker so then is it fair to call it a snooker table? it's got an 8'4" x 48" playing surface. to my knowledge they went from carom , to tables with pockets , which mine is but snooker became popular later, in the 1930's and perhaps it was designed for a game more like straight pool.

it was sold as either carom ( no pockets) or pool ( with pockets). It does not use triangular rubber , it is L shaped and the pockets are rounded like that of a snooker table.

what is a chinese snooker table? I hear the term being thrown about,, maybe a smaller version? not sure.
What is the difference between a British snooker table and a US snooker table ?
Is there one?
Ive heard but not seen that snooker is popular in England and real estate is high so there may be quite a number of downsized snooker tables. maybe 7 ' snooker tables, is this true?


funny question but what exactly is pool? is it any game with cues and balls? is it not pool if the table has no pockets? is snooker pool? I would think bumper pool is pool.. some seem to define "snooker" and "pool" as two different games.

perhaps terminology varies a little by area or country of origin?

The Victor does have K55 rubber as opposed to L shaped rails, as I suspect most or all american 10 foot snooker tables do. The 10 foot length itself I think is definitive of being designed for the American Style Snooker game. The balls that came with this table are 2 1/8" diameter, also an american snooker thing as opposed to the 2 1/16" used in Europe on 12 ft tables. The victor also has the snooker bends at all pockets as opposed to mitered angles, and finally the Victor corner pocket measured 3 3/16" at the narrowest point. It was a beast to play on with 2 1/4 inch Centennials. Eventually I did replace the rail rubber and converted it to pool with mitered pockets. I mean you can only play so much snooker, and can only go so long without playing one pocket right?

 

[Renegade_56]

Yes, but they could have left it alone a long time ago and used regular snooker rules. Maybe someone was afraid they were going to get sued by whoever owned the rules of original snooker.

In all honesty, I learned to play snooker in a weekly saturday afternoon ring game with 6 reds and they played the ball and rail rule in that just like every other game. I have no idea if there is an american rule about that or not.

 

[snookered_again]

I was watching the British guy who does a lot of great snooker videos, and as he explained it there are only one set of rules for snooker. they are changed occasionally but he seems to feel the British are the authority. Maybe in the US they thought of that as pompous and decided to override British rules and make their own. He pointed out also that private clubs, halls or organizations may take it upon themselves to alter the rules. as long as the players know and agree, all fine. said when there is a dispute, the game should be stopped and a resolution found and an agreement.

as an example they have 4 ten foot snooker tables at a local community center. Its mostly retired folks playing, they do take the game and care of the cloth seriously.
I noted someone bumped a ball and it was not called out as a foul and I thought well maybe that's just a way they have modified their house rules..
Perhaps due to some of the elderly players being a bit shaky or just not wanting to seem too fussy.

another major difference I noted is where I play, hard shots are not uncommon and many pride themselves on making shots with multiple banks. a three banks side shot is met with cheers.. I found that in the community center they were very gentle, never a ball off the table. I think if I went in and started taking really hard shots and consequentially, knock a ball off the table at the local rec center it would be considered in bad form. too hard or too often and its fair to be called out. it can do damage.

due to the hard shooting there have been some instances where balls were able to hit a spot on the rail just near where the rubber ends, it has caused some chips of the rails. maybe it's the hard shooting , or maybe the rails are just 1/8" or so too short. the pockets are very tight and they play the larger balls. I think the balls loft because they are using larger balls and thus making the pockets tighter. they have the smaller size but seem to like using the larger ones. It might be due to players also wanting to switch back and forth between snooker and 9 ball and not wanting to adjust so much.

with triangular shaped rubber, the distance from the ball to the contact point of the rail is approximately 64 % of ball size. With the snooker rails, I'm not clear how this is measured but it' is clear that ball is too large, will launch on rebound if the shot is harder.

a whole lot of topspin near a corner can launch a ball on almost any table. I've noted that most 9 ball tables do have that flatter section between the rail and the pocket on the corners and it's easy to do it there.


one guy sometimes brings in these huge balls. its a different game. These gigantic balls arent; shot so hard and they do pocket. Different game, not snooker, Im not sure what it's called. I'm suprised it even works.

where I play we call any touched ball as a foul and often it is called by the player in honesty, He doesn't usually wait to be called out on it. often the player can see what he did whereas others may not see. At home , in practice we will sometimes ignore the rule but feel it has worth as we want to play by similar rules. mostly we call it, If an inexperienced player happens to touch a ball then we may not call them on that as it just seems a bit fussy. we do state that it is an actual part of the rules. 4 point foul for even your shirt touching a ball and not even moving it , plus your turn is over, for example. so what when you put your hand on the table and feel you are near a ball because the hair on your hand or wrist touched the ball ? Id interpret tat as a near foul but others may feel no that's a foul alright. you couldn't feel it if you didn't touch it.. now we are splitting hairs..

i just see altered rules like the one about needing to hit a cushion as fair play as long as all the players are in agreement, that's all that really matters , if it's just practice time with friends and you want to loosen the rules, why not.

in more serious play it may be common for a ball to be re-placed after someone is hooked ad fails to make it. this requires video or very careful analysis , maybe an authority to say where it originally was and replace it. Under those rules, a player can then be seriously hooked and they keep putting him back to the exact same spot, so he basically can loose by way of one seriously difficult hook. After three tries it's game over as I understand it. the reason we dont use that rule is because it is very difficult to correctly determine the placement after a ball is shot especially when other balls get moved.

push shots are more difficult to call, I'll often question them and let it go , a poster here pointed out htat a miscue is a push shot because any miscue involves the tip contacting the ball more than once. usually a miscue is the end of a turn and we dont necessarily call it as a push shot foul. It was a good point I thought.

the other I find difficult to jusdge is where the object ball is hit but another ball is hit at either the exact same moment of so close that it becomes difficult to judge which was actually contacted first , after the shot. I think the general consensus is that if its at the same time its not called as a foul but if it looked like it wasn't' the object ball struck first , then it is a foul.

These things can be difficult to analyze because by the point where the call is made , balls are already moved and there is no way to go back to analyze more.. It can be one of those grey areas.

If you set the rules so if they are hit in unison , then that's OK, but it may change how you approach such a shot. so this changes play. If striking both balls in unison is a fault then its a fair shot , otherwise best avoided as it poses a "danger"

I think we, in Canada, kind of respect the British as the rule makers, but maybe that's just a cultural thing. we stem from the British commonwealth of nations and although we are more separated now, there was a time during the history of snooker when were at least partially under the rule of the crown.

I see it as you are the ruler of your own castle ;-)

 

[snookered_again]

my little 7 foot brunswick table came with both sets, but ony 10 reds, the reason is because since the table is smaller and already if you put the black on it's spot it is very close to the reds so playing 15 would be too crowded and the black spot couldnt be seen. what I do is place the black a bit further back . I often think maybe I should move the black spot further back, but its in the correct place in respect with the diamonds and pockets..

a 12 foot table doesn't have this issue as there is a lot more real estate so the table is less crowded after break .
a 10 foot snooker table may have room for all 15?
what we do is reduce the number of reds if people are waiting, if it's only a few then we play 15. It's just so people all get a chance to play.. If lots are waiting, then we go down to 6 If you win you keep playing, that and the break is the only advantage to winning. the challenger racks.. Its mostly doubles, doubles helps people learn as then your partner becomes your advisor and it also is perhaps a bit more fun. again part of that, is so is it means less waiting.

 

[DaveK]

one guy sometimes brings in these huge balls. its a different game. These gigantic balls arent; shot so hard and they do pocket. Different game, not snooker, Im not sure what it's called.

Russian Pyramid (Russian Billiards). Balls are 2 5/8" (snooker balls are 2 1/16" IIRC).

Russian pyramid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dave <-- has played on a tight 9' table with Pyramid balls, couldn't make a darned thing but laughed a lot

 

[snookered_again]

That was it, Thanks Dave, yes its a very weird game, with the balls being so huge.