Do you have an English Problem.

[PoolSleuth]

Wondering if some of you have a problem sinking Ball more when using Inside English (same direction as the Object Ball is moving as the Cue Ball), or Outside English (opposite direction as the Object Ball is moving away from the Cue Ball).

I seem to miss more shots when using Inside English when trying to make a Shot.

 

[tedkaufman]

Yes, inside english requires a greater compensation than outside english. In many cases, depending on the length of the shot, the force and the amount of english, outside english requires no compensation. This is because the spin on the cueball throws the shot, offsetting the deflection of the cueball path.

Using inside, deflection and throw work together to overcut the shot. Also, using inside, force has a more profound effect and the compensation has to be more precise for a given speed.

The only way to overcome this obstacle is to repeatedly hit shots with varying degrees of inside at various speeds until you develop a feel for the required compensation. If you tend to avoid using inside, it will always remain an obstacle.

 

[moccabee]

Yes, inside english requires a greater compensation than outside english. In many cases, depending on the length of the shot, the force and the amount of english, outside english requires no compensation. This is because the spin on the cueball throws the shot, offsetting the deflection of the cueball path.

Using inside, deflection and throw work together to overcut the shot. Also, using inside, force has a more profound affect and the compensation has to be more precise for a given speed.

The only way to overcome this obstacle is to repeatedly hit shots with varying degrees of inside at various speeds until you develop a feel for the required compensation. If you tend to avoid using inside, it will always remain an obstacle.

Very good explaination and suggestion, could not have said it better.

 

[JohnnyP]

Raise the butt of your cue a little, hit it soft, and let the swerve cancel the deflection. Works for inside or outside spin.

 

[Andrew Manning]

Yes, inside english requires a greater compensation than outside english. In many cases, depending on the length of the shot, the force and the amount of english, outside english requires no compensation. This is because the spin on the cueball throws the shot, offsetting the deflection of the cueball path.

Using inside, deflection and throw work together to overcut the shot. Also, using inside, force has a more profound effect and the compensation has to be more precise for a given speed.

The only way to overcome this obstacle is to repeatedly hit shots with varying degrees of inside at various speeds until you develop a feel for the required compensation. If you tend to avoid using inside, it will always remain an obstacle.

Funny, I think you've got the right conclusions with the wrong reasons. With inside english, deflection and throw do not work together to overcut. Deflection works to overcut, but throw works to undercut. There may be a speed and amount of english where deflection and throw cancel each other out just like you can achieve with outside english. However, I think it's much easier to find that equilibrium with outside english, because of the throw.

With no side english whatsoever, you've already got throw on a cut shot. The balls cling togather a tiny bit at contact, and the OB is dragged a little bit in the direction the CB was moving. The right amount of outside english can cancel this "contact throw" out entirely. Any amount of inside english will add to the contact throw.

So with outside english, you have to adjust less for throw. Deflection happens whether it's inside or outside spin, so I think throw is the reason some people find outside english easier to use than inside.

Oddly enough, I'm the opposite. I cut balls well with inside, but I can't seem to avoid undercutting them with outside. It's something I need to practice by running balls with varying degrees of outside english on every shot, which is a very good suggestion, by the way.

-Andrew

 

[tedkaufman]

Much as I hate to admit my error, you are correct about the effects of spin on inside english cut shots. The net effect of inside spin, however, in actual play, is virtually indistiguishable from a center axis hit for shots of 1/2 ball or less hit, except possibly on a very soft stroke where spin can have a nominal effect in reducing the cut.

Outside spin, for the reasons you described, has a more profound effect. And again, with outside, variations of speed and spin can induce widely varying separation changes. Then too, how dirty or scuffed the balls are can also have a significant impact on all these variables with both inside and outside.

I didn't even address cueball path curvature, or swerve. This is yet another variable. All these factors together can become so burdensome, to analyze them in playing circumstances would paralyze me.

Therefore, I recommend to anyone trying to learn these compensations to systematically experiment with both inside and outside and allow your mental computer to absorb information until the execution of compensations becomes a thoughtless process. I've found for myself when I try to analzye it during play, I interfer with what my subconscious already understands. Best to give the inner mind a chance to learn it, then leave it alone.

Funny, I think you've got the right conclusions with the wrong reasons. With inside english, deflection and throw do not work together to overcut. Deflection works to overcut, but throw works to undercut. There may be a speed and amount of english where deflection and throw cancel each other out just like you can achieve with outside english. However, I think it's much easier to find that equilibrium with outside english, because of the throw.

With no side english whatsoever, you've already got throw on a cut shot. The balls cling togather a tiny bit at contact, and the OB is dragged a little bit in the direction the CB was moving. The right amount of outside english can cancel this "contact throw" out entirely. Any amount of inside english will add to the contact throw.

So with outside english, you have to adjust less for throw. Deflection happens whether it's inside or outside spin, so I think throw is the reason some people find outside english easier to use than inside.

Oddly enough, I'm the opposite. I cut balls well with inside, but I can't seem to avoid undercutting them with outside. It's something I need to practice by running balls with varying degrees of outside english on every shot, which is a very good suggestion, by the way.

-Andrew

 

[PoolSleuth]

Thanks....

Well I will say thanks to those who responded with SUGGESTIONS. I am off to the Pool room to do some R & D, experimenting to see if any of there Suggestion help my Inside English Problem....

 

[Cornerman]

Wondering if some of you have a problem sinking Ball more when using Inside English (same direction as the Object Ball is moving as the Cue Ball), or Outside English (opposite direction as the Object Ball is moving away from the Cue Ball).

I seem to miss more shots when using Inside English when trying to make a Shot.

I would say that for the majority of players, they will have a problem with Inside English more than Outside English. The devil's in the details.

I think most people have a harder time compensating for Inside because it's not the natural run of the ball. And, most people learn about throw first, and forever attempt to compensate with throw in mind, first and foremost. Is that true for you?

I normally tell people to simply forget about throw. In the overall compensation, it can be neglected. Not really neglected, but for shotmaking purposes, it can. Again, the devil's in the details. And for most firm shots, squirt overides. For slower shots, swerve overides.

Simply watch where you're missing. If your stroke is anywhere consistent, you will miss pretty much the same way every time. A lot of people try to compensate for throw, even though they continually miss on the thin side. I did this for years. When I said, "the hell with throw" and compensated for squirt only, all became good in the universe.

Unfortunately, outside english no longer was the easier english for me. But, it wasn't/isn't harder either. Both are about the same degree of difficulty, once I got over thinking about throw.

Fred

 

[Bluey2King]

Great Topic!!

I just bought a Predator 314 and I am learning soo much about inside and outside english. I was wondering if some of you had some drills that would speed up this learning curve?

I seem to notice that when I have a small angle cut shot and the CB and OB are close together the spin seems to have a much Greater effect when hit with a below center hit vs top left of right. Does that make sence?

 

[Cornerman]

So with outside english, you have to adjust less for throw. Deflection happens whether it's inside or outside spin, so I think throw is the reason some people find outside english easier to use than inside.

Oddly enough, I'm the opposite. I cut balls well with inside, but I can't seem to avoid undercutting them with outside. It's something I need to practice by running balls with varying degrees of outside english on every shot, which is a very good suggestion, by the way.

-Andrew

Andrew, I think if you examine both your statements, it should be clear to you (it is to me, after reading your post) that you are underestimating the deflection. By your own words, you "can't seem to avoid undercutting them with outside." That's a clear indication that deflection/squirt is the over-riding factor, not the throw.

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

I seem to notice that when I have a small angle cut shot and the CB and OB are close together the spin seems to have a much Greater effect when hit with a below center hit vs top left of right. Does that make sence?

It makes perfect sense. The cue will have lower squirt, but nothing changes the swerve. So, the swerve is still there, with little squirt to counteract it. This is the biggest problem that players who use normal cues will have if trying to use a low squirt cue.

You notice it when the CB and OB are close together because you would normally never miss that shot (or over/under cut it so badly) with a normal cue.

Fred

 

[Andrew Manning]

Andrew, I think if you examine both your statements, it should be clear to you (it is to me, after reading your post) that you are underestimating the deflection. By your own words, you "can't seem to avoid undercutting them with outside." That's a clear indication that deflection/squirt is the over-riding factor, not the throw.

Fred

Yes you're right, it was already clear to me that I've been underestimating the deflection. That doesn't change the fact that for some reason my mind knows how to compensate for squirt more accurately with inside than outside.

I think it's related to the way I aim; I just look at the OB and sort of let my subconscious tell me where to hit it, and I think I'm sort of starting from the center and adjusting out from there, and I think I have an overall tendency to undercut because of that, and so my mind is better at dialing in less cut because of inside squirt, than more cut because of outside squirt. Or something like that.

All that conjecture doesn't get me anywhere though, I just need to put in some time shooting with outside english to learn to adjust to it, since I've identified it as a weak point of mine. I'll start out by consciously adjusting more for squirt, and see if I can learn to do it intuitively.

-Andrew

 

[Cornerman]

I think it's related to the way I aim; I just look at the OB and sort of let my subconscious tell me where to hit it, and I think I'm sort of starting from the center and adjusting out from there, and I think I have an overall tendency to undercut because of that, and so my mind is better at dialing in less cut because of inside squirt, than more cut because of outside squirt. Or something like that.

Have you considered using your cue stick's pivot point?

Fred

 

[Billy_Bob]

Shoot just the cue ball at the far center diamond with a center hit. Then try left english, then right english. Try different speeds. The cue ball is probably off 1/2 inch to an inch by the time it gets down there. This is called cue ball deflection or squirt.

I fixed this problem by getting a Predator 314 shaft. Now I can aim dead center, then while leaving my back hand in place, just slide my bridge hand left/right and the cue ball will go to the same spot as a dead center hit.

So that is one problem fixed...

Then next is that a spinning cue ball will alter the path of the object ball with a cut shot. What basically is happening is the cue ball, when hitting the object ball, has a bit of friction when contacting. This causes the ball to "slide" a bit. When using outside english, the friction is reduced. When using inside english, there is more friction.

So you need to adjust your aim when using english on a cut shot. Set up an object ball 1/2 inch off the rail near the side pocket. Then cut it into the corner pocket with a center hit. Then try outside english. Then inside english. Mark exact locations of CB and OB so you can shoot same exact shot over and over. Also mark spot on rail to be sure CB is going to same exact spot when using english.

 

[Andrew Manning]

Have you considered using your cue stick's pivot point?

Fred

Considered, yes. I assume you mean back-hand-english. I have two problems with it:

I play with a predator 314, and bridging at the pivot point means using a very long bridge, which I don't like doing, partly because it means a less accurate tip placement, and also because I'm 6'2" shooting with a 58" cue, and a long bridge means by the time the tip gets to the CB, my arm is well past the bottom of my pendulum.

The other reason is if I line up with center ball, and then pivot the cue, the shot doesn't look right to me anymore. I lose confidence in my aim.

-Andrew

 

[Billy_Bob]

...I play with a predator 314, and bridging at the pivot point means using a very long bridge...

Note that there is disagreement (by the experts) as to where the pivot point is on a 314.

The shape and hardness of the tip can alter where the pivot point is as well.

I use a hard dime shaped tip. Note that Predator recommends a dime shaped tip.

Anyway, it seems to me that the pivot point on my cue (with the 314 shaft) is way back where I grip the cue with my back hand. So I aim dead center, then move my front hand left/right to apply english leaving my back hand still. (front hand english if you will).

Anyway I find that the cue ball will go to the same exact spot on the far rail when applying english with this method as a dead center hit.

Predator tip shape recommendation, see "Shape your tip" 3/4 way down page...

http://www.predatorcues.com/predator_cues_tech_tips.html

 

[Gregg]

I shoot almost all of my cut shots with about half a tip of outside english, when the cut is 30 degrees or more. It allows me to hit the exact contact point on the object ball without having to worry about contact throw.

Now inside english, to spin the cue ball off the rail or to hold the cue ball up is very different. It's hard! I need to work more on using inside English.

 

[Cornerman]

Considered, yes. I assume you mean back-hand-english. I have two problems with it:

Although related, in this case, I really mean "pivot point." You don't have to bridge at the pivot point. You just have to pivot at the pivot point. You can bridge anywhere you want. You would only pivot at the bridge point (backhand english) if your pivot point happens to be at or near your bridge length. A lot of cues are nowhere near this point. A lot are.

I think there was a misleading post recently that seemed to suggest that the bridge hand has to coincide with the pivot point. It doesn't have to. If the pivot point is, say, 20", you'd pivot at 20" which determines your new line of aim. Shoot normally along that line with whatever bridge length you want.

I play with a predator 314, and bridging at the pivot point means using a very long bridge,

To get a good idea of what, how much compensation you are talking about with a 314, you would pivot at your grip hand, and move the front of the cue. Some people have called this "front-hand english). Most 314's that I've tested have a pivot point well above 30". So, grabbing the wrap at the top of it (the A-joint) and using front-hand english, that's probably close enough to the "correct" squirt compensation line." Shoot normally on that line.

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

I shoot almost all of my cut shots with about half a tip of outside english, when the cut is 30 degrees or more. It allows me to hit the exact contact point on the object ball without having to worry about contact throw.

Now inside english, to spin the cue ball off the rail or to hold the cue ball up is very different. It's hard! I need to work more on using inside English.

This is pretty much the usual answer. All of the compensation blending you do for outside english doesn't work with inside english. And you are blending. It's not just one compensation.

If there was an easy solution, I'd say "squirt." Once you truly understand squirt, inside english becomes virtually the same degree of difficulty as outside english.

Fred

 

[Ghosst]

Do you have an English problem?

Yes, and shortly after the marriage it became clear I was in over my head. First it was just the inside English I had a problem with ... not cleaning the dishes, forgetting to take empties back until they piled up my office so badly you needed vaseline to get inside. Then the outside English started to cause me grief ... not mowing the lawn, forgetting to clean the truck, never filling the gas tank after using it ...

Oh ... whoops ... were we talking about side?

n/m all that then...

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