Do you really need a straight stroke???

A lot of legends have been successful with un-orthodox strokes in pool and other games but I still would think that if you were going to teach a beginner you would want to them to make an effort to stroke straight with good form. Natural talents who start young seem to find there own way quite a bit.

McCready and Hopkins play world class pool with unusual strokes. Hoppe was a sidearmer but I've heard that when he moved from balkline to three cushion his stroke straightened out a bit.

Two of the purest strikers of the ball in golf were Lee Trevino and Moe Norman and they both had swings that were most instructors wouldn't teach.
 
bud green said:
A lot of legends have been successful with un-orthodox strokes in pool and other games but I still would think that if you were going to teach a beginner you would want to them to make an effort to stroke straight with good form. Natural talents who start young seem to find there own way quite a bit.

McCready and Hopkins play world class pool with unusual strokes. Hoppe was a sidearmer but I've heard that when he moved from balkline to three cushion his stroke straightened out a bit.

Two of the purest strikers of the ball in golf were Lee Trevino and Moe Norman and they both had swings that were most instructors wouldn't teach.


it's not the best idea to use the greats(in any endeavor) as examples of "proper" style. they are great for reasons other than that. ''teaching the "correct" way is for those who are mediocre or who have problems that proper training would correct.
 
wayne said:
No wonder you pick on the women, I would have a helluva inferiority complex too, if THAT'S IT! 2 friggin' inches. I feel for you man.

Wayne


Oh, that was low...you'll burn for that one. LOL :D
 
frankncali said:
So your saying that your total backstroke is only 2 inches???


Frank...that's what I'm saying for MOST shots that are only half table length shots or where the CB/OB doesn't have full length table distance between the two.

I think ALL OF YOU might be quite surprised at the length of your stroke...backstroke and follow thru if you measured it.

On those type of shots, my backstroke which is from the back of the CB to where it stops or transitions into the forward hit...is around 2"...sometimes
2 1/2 - 3" and probably a maximum of 5" for a power stroke.

HOWEVER...my follow thru AFTER IMPACT WITH THE BACK OF THE CB goes about 7-8 1/2" forward, and sometimes as much as 9". So really, my stroke total is about 10". (For you guys wondering about my crank length, 'WAYNE' , does that fit your stats a little better? Makes me wonder why you're even thinking about my dick to begin with...say it ain't so, Joe...say it ain't so...you didn't cross over to the other side, did you?)

I've always been one to feel that the LONGER your backstroke is, the more trouble you can get into WITH the STROKE. The hand and elbow can start moving and flying away from the body with the butt end of the cue moving to the outside and altering the tip to the inside. Then, when you start forward you tend to jam your hand too close back into your side to compensate for the backstroke move which then throws the tip back into the opposite direction. THAT is where a shitty stroke comes from.

Also, the longer the backstroke the greater the tendency to SLOW DOWN coming into impact with a shorter follow thru. That is exactly what I DON'T want. I want to be either accelerating or coming thru at the same speed at impact. I do believe in an extended follow thru.

Besides, once the CB is STRUCK and on the way, the only thing that matters is what went on IN that 2" distance or 10" distance, however far back a guy wants to swing it. Again, for me...my good results come from a short backstroke and a long follow thru. What do the rest of you do?
 
Snapshot9 said:
Your bridge hand does not insure that you will hit it
correctly. People that hold the cue too close to
their hip (by standing too straight) or the flipside
have the cue way too far from their hip like a sidearm
stroke will have a tendency to go sideways with the
tip upon contact, bridgehand or no bridgehand.
You act like you want justification for a bad stroke
because your bridge hand will correct it.
If your cue comes into your bridge hand at angle
other than 90 degrees, chances are it will go
beyond your bridge hand at an angle. period ...
Now, the question is, do you want to shoot
30 or 40 years, and still be a 5, or do you want
to correct your mechanics, and have a chance
to be a 7 through a 10?
This is a prime example of why it is easier sometimes
to take a child who has never played and give them
lessons, than it is to take someone that has been
playing awhile, and try to correct all of their flaws,
because you have to pour the cup out, before you
fill it up again.

If you are not handicapped, then there is no reason
why you can not have a straight true stroke. As
Pat Morita said, 'Wax on, Wax off'. You will understand
the meaning behind it later ...

Did you understand everything about computers up front?
No, you only understood what keys to hit to get it
to perform what you wanted it to do, and most people
had to have some type of instruction to do that.

Pool is a learning process which has many building blocks
along the way.


I am not trying to justify a bad stroke...

I think what I am trying to do is justify "perfect" set up..Grip, Stance, Posture, Alignment...If those are "crooked" as (I think) you state above then yes...your doomed from the start..

I think that you may think I am trying justifying bad set up...I am not..I am stressing (perfect) set up...I think from there the "stoke" takes care of itself...same as a putting stroke in golf...In pool however if you are set up perfect but happen by some freak of nature to miss your spot by a 1/2 tip...as long as you have kept your bridge hand firmly planted...the (accidental) BHE makes the ball anyway...

I (fully) understand that if the shot requires high left, you better be able to hit high left on the CB....but...if your using BHE and you apply a little more high left than you wanted..your still going to make the ball...I also fully understand that you may not get the intended shape on your next shot...

I just feel that if the static pieces are correct...the stroke will take care of itself without any help from me to make it straight......Also those static pieces are really the only pieces that I can control anyway...If I try to force a straight stroke...I can not believe it would ever be consistent under pressure....If I let it happen and not worry about it...my guess is it will begin to repeat on a consistent basis and more importantly repeat under pressure as that is the natural movement....

If I do happen to miss my exact spot on the CB for a particular shot...As long as I keep my bridge hand solid...I will probably still make the shot.....

BTW...I am already a strong 8....very soon to be a 9....(just so you have some background on me)
 
BRKNRUN said:
I am not trying to justify a bad stroke...

I think what I am trying to do is justify "perfect" set up..Grip, Stance, Posture, Alignment...If those are "crooked" as (I think) you state above then yes...your doomed from the start..

I think that you may think I am trying justifying bad set up...I am not..I am stressing (perfect) set up...I think from there the "stoke" takes care of itself...same as a putting stroke in golf...

I just feel that if the static pieces are correct...the stroke will take care of itself without any help from me to make it straight......Also those static pieces are really the only pieces that I can control anyway...If I try to force a straight stroke...I can not believe it would ever be consistent under pressure....If I let it happen and not worry about it...my guess is it will begin to repeat on a consistent basis and more importantly repeat under pressure as that is the natural movement....


I couldn't agree more. Everything that you do in those areas DICTATES what will happen in the stroke to begin with...so there's not a hell of a lot you CAN do in mid-stroke to alter it.

I feel that the guys who are constantly trying to FORCE OR CREATE a stroke and who constantly think about the mechanics or how straight it is or isn't are doomed to failure...ESPECIALLY under the gun.
 
A few points in Drivermaker's defense-

I observed that many pro snooker players had much shorter back strokes than the average player. I had a great video of Cliff Thornburn making a 147 with around 2" backswing on each shot, even a few power shots.

I tried this for quite a while and had some good success, but it was tough to develop great cue ball touch with such rapid acceleration.

Also, while it minimizes cueing errors, it requires very careful initial placement. Now I prefer less critical bridge placement and to let myself feel the line more through feathering and on the final stroke where I believe memory kind of takes over to help you find the line.
 
If ...

drivermaker said:
Frank...that's what I'm saying for MOST shots that are only half table length shots or where the CB/OB doesn't have full length table distance between the two.

I think ALL OF YOU might be quite surprised at the length of your stroke...backstroke and follow thru if you measured it.

On those type of shots, my backstroke which is from the back of the CB to where it stops or transitions into the forward hit...is around 2"...sometimes
2 1/2 - 3" and probably a maximum of 5" for a power stroke.

HOWEVER...my follow thru AFTER IMPACT WITH THE BACK OF THE CB goes about 7-8 1/2" forward, and sometimes as much as 9". So really, my stroke total is about 10". (For you guys wondering about my crank length, 'WAYNE' , does that fit your stats a little better? Makes me wonder why you're even thinking about my dick to begin with...say it ain't so, Joe...say it ain't so...you didn't cross over to the other side, did you?)

I've always been one to feel that the LONGER your backstroke is, the more trouble you can get into WITH the STROKE. The hand and elbow can start moving and flying away from the body with the butt end of the cue moving to the outside and altering the tip to the inside. Then, when you start forward you tend to jam your hand too close back into your side to compensate for the backstroke move which then throws the tip back into the opposite direction. THAT is where a shitty stroke comes from.

Also, the longer the backstroke the greater the tendency to SLOW DOWN coming into impact with a shorter follow thru. That is exactly what I DON'T want. I want to be either accelerating or coming thru at the same speed at impact. I do believe in an extended follow thru.

Besides, once the CB is STRUCK and on the way, the only thing that matters is what went on IN that 2" distance or 10" distance, however far back a guy wants to swing it. Again, for me...my good results come from a short backstroke and a long follow thru. What do the rest of you do?


If your butt end goes away from your body and your tip goes toward the
inside, it will be because you are not holding the butt of the stick properly.
(like with a full fist and your wrist bent instead of being straight). One of the first books I read when I was 14 (1962) said you were to hold the stick with
two fingers and a thumb, much like going up to a person, and grabbing their arm with 2 fingers and a thumb. This was so your wrist could stay straight
throughout the entire stroke and would be able to break in a straight line at the end of the stroke. Today, many players do it differently, but I have noticed countless times the players that do not hold the cue the right way
with their butt hand, do many things to try to compensate for their wrist not being able to break in a straight line (like shortening their stroke, and they
end up having problems with long shots especially because of their wrist NOT
breaking the way it should).
The stroke you described would be equivalent to someone doing a short pause
and then firing a rifle repeatedly, but they would not be squeezing the trigger, they would be jerking it. In otherwards, where it should be one fluid straight motion, you are shortening the back stroke and trying to 'control' the outcome rather than just letting it happen.
That book also mentioned that the bridge hand is normally to be 6-8" behind
the tip. Today, many players will bridge 10, even 12" behind the tip (but that can also cause problems by using too long a stroke). You know I was playing
a good friend who plays real good some small money 1 night years ago, and his girlfriend was a good friend of mine, and I looked over towards her and said
while he was shooting, "you know you can always tell how long a poolplayers
di*k is by the length of their pool stroke". He turned red, start coughing a little, and couldn't make a ball after that because he kept trying to make his
stroke twice as long as it was normally .... lol
If you pay attention to ALL of the form for a good stroke TO THE LETTER,
and practice it, it will come, and you will adapt to it, and later on, it will be
second nature to you just like eating is.
 
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BRKNRUN said:
Do you really even need a striaght stroke,

Probably not, but I don't think it hurts and it probably helps more than hurts.

That being said, if you don't aim correctly in the first place, no amount of straight stroke will help. If you do aim correctly, and have a normal range of squirt, than balls will still go in with a wide range crooked stroking.

Fred
 
BRKNRUN said:
Ok...I got pretty much what I expected in responses...

Let me throw out this fairly simple test.

Set up a straight in shot. Nothing too long..about 1/2 table length... Set up to the shot and get aligned (perfectly)....weather you want to stroke the cue to get lined up or if you just lay it in position is up to you...As soon as you get aligned (perfectly)...pause in that position for a brief second...Now keep your bridge hand absolutly solid in place and stoke the cue pretty much as loopy as you want (I am exaggerating here...no one is purposely going to loop their stroke in real life) Don't really pay attention to straight back and straight through...

now hit the CB a little high right, high left, low left, wherever you want but just not dead center...BUT make sure that your bridge hand never moved a bit.....Hit it off center by as much as a tip....Did the ball still go in...

Since all that's really happening is BHE (by accident) I still make the ball....As long as I am perfectly aligned from the get go, and then my bridge hand stays perfectly still, I can pretty much forget about stroking straight and just shoot the ball...No thinking necessary...

All I really have to think about is static(non moving) positioning ...Proper grip, proper stance, proper posture and proper alignment...Those "static" pieces insure that the alignment is perfectly straight and aligned before anything else happens...then as long as that bridge hand stays firmly planted.....the ball goes in....(as long as I was aligned properly from the beginning)

I (partially) agree with the poster that mentioned that golf and pool relate in the swing...I think they do relate in that they both require a solid foundation of Grip, Stance, Posture, Alignment...However the (actual) swing and the stroke are different...Perhaps the pool stroke is similar to the putting stroke since they are both just a back and through motion...But I agree with DM that the pool stroke and (full) golf swing have some major differences and can't qualify as similar...

THE ONLY ALIGNMENT IS CUE BALL TO OBJECT BALL. STANCE, STROKE, BODY ALIGNMENT, GRIP, HAS NO BEARING ON THE OUTCOME OF YOUR STRAIGHT IN SHOT. CHECK WITH FRED AGNIR.

HAL HOULE
 
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