Do you think these pockets were too large?

Mark V said:
So what could we expect to see under the conditions I proposed and why would the results be problematic?
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They wouldn't fit into any reasonable time schedule unless you really wanted to eliminate most of the field.
Mark V said:
What I’m getting at is this. The solution to the perceived problem completely changed the game, and in its current state, it barely resembles the once beautiful, charismatic, almost poetic, art form that was enjoyable to watch. Stop shot, stop shot, safe, jump. Alternate break. Barf.
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This is nostalgia. You're leaving out all the steps that got us to where we are. Like not understanding the rack. Watch old matches where poorly racked balls lead to the 9 ball making a direct bee-line to the corner pocket. Then watch the crowd applaud as if true talent was on display. It wasn't. There was just a gap behind the 9 ball. We understand this now. We can't erase this information from our collective pool knowledge. We also understand how wired the wing balls are when the one is racked on the spot.

This information changed the game and we had to adjust.

Many tourneys still play winner breaks so that's more of a spectator preference.

Maybe one of the things you are hinting at is -- the game is more interesting to watch when it's played by players that make more mistakes. Old school 9 ball had that for sure. It also had more variance in the layouts after the break but most of that was due to random loose racks. I don't see the game ever going back to that.
Mark V said:
I feel like Michael Douglas in Falling Down (one hell of a good movie) asking over and over “what’s wrong with the street?!?”
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
 
BasementDweller said:
They wouldn't fit into any reasonable time schedule unless you really wanted to eliminate most of the field.

This is nostalgia. You're leaving out all the steps that got us to where we are. Like not understanding the rack. Watch old matches where poorly racked balls lead to the 9 ball making a direct bee-line to the corner pocket. Then watch the crowd applaud as if true talent was on display. It wasn't. There was just a gap behind the 9 ball. We understand this now. We can't erase this information from our collective pool knowledge. We also understand how wired the wing balls are when the one is racked on the spot.

This information changed the game and we had to adjust.

Many tourneys still play winner breaks so that's more of a spectator preference.

Maybe one of the things you are hinting at is -- the game is more interesting to watch when it's played by players that make more mistakes. Old school 9 ball had that for sure. It also had more variance in the layouts after the break but most of that was due to random loose racks. I don't see the game ever going back to that.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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I really value your civil response. It’s rare these days to disagree cordially.

Our viewpoints just differ. What you call nostalgia is what I call real pool. What you saw as a problem in the game, I saw as good. It’s an interesting dichotomy of thought, which is why this thread is what it is. For either camp, it’s like showing Dracula the cross.
 
Mark V said:
I really value your civil response. It’s rare these days to disagree cordially.

Our viewpoints just differ. What you call nostalgia is what I call real pool. What you saw as a problem in the game, I saw as good. It’s an interesting dichotomy of thought, which is why this thread is what it is. For either camp, it’s like showing Dracula the cross.
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Look -- I do get it. I watch as many old Accu-stats matches as I do the new stuff. There's just something about the old school matches that I find compelling. I love listening to Grady, Buddy Hall, Nick Varner, and a few others dissect the game and interweave a story or two.

I think I recognize now that I'm as nostalgic as the next guy. The game was way more innocent back then even if its practitioners were less so. Every nook and cranny of pocket billiards had not yet been uncovered. We watched mesmerized and awestruck. How did they do it? Fortunately to some, but unfortunately to the rest of us, a lot of the mysteries of the game have been explained, leaving us with just the cold, somewhat lifeless pursuit of perfection.

Sadly, this isn't just plaguing pool or even sports in general, but even more so the arts. Everything around us is being dissected and turned into ones and zeros. Not sure there's much we can do about it all.

Guess we can talk about it here.

Thanks for being so receptive.
 
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This isn't happening in a vacuum. Sports in general have gotten easier due to better conditioning, and this is true for pool. The cloth is better, the balls are better, the chalk is better, the cues are better (including jump cues), and there is more easily accessible knowledge than ever before. Nearly all sports have taken somewhat extreme measures to maintain integrity in the face of technological change. (Golf, the most obvious counterexample where governing bodies have let manufacturers run wild, is now suffering the consequences with top high school boys able to hit drives as far as what used to be considered a short to medium length par 4.).

I just think things have gone too far. 4.5" used to be tight, now they are seen as large and appropriate for amateurs. Never mind that amateurs need all the help they can get and 5" is very appropriate for league play. Now Matchroom is rolling out 4" pockets for the US Open, egged on by the snooker crowd, and it won't stop there, because people want to "play like the pros."

On top of that, unlike golf for instance, not all technological improvements have made pool easier. Slow cloth and cakey balls can be helpful in many situations, especially for games like 8-ball where less cue ball movement is needed.
 
skip100 said:
This isn't happening in a vacuum. Sports in general have gotten easier due to better conditioning, and this is true for pool. The cloth is better, the balls are better, the chalk is better, the cues are better (including jump cues), and there is more easily accessible knowledge than ever before. Nearly all sports have taken somewhat extreme measures to maintain integrity in the face of technological change. (Golf, the most obvious counterexample where governing bodies have let manufacturers run wild, is now suffering the consequences with top high school boys able to hit drives as far as what used to be considered a short to medium length par 4.).

I just think things have gone too far. 4.5" used to be tight, now they are seen as large and appropriate for amateurs. Never mind that amateurs need all the help they can get and 5" is very appropriate for league play. Now Matchroom is rolling out 4" pockets for the US Open, egged on by the snooker crowd, and it won't stop there, because people want to "play like the pros."

On top of that, unlike golf for instance, not all technological improvements have made pool easier. Slow cloth and cakey balls can be helpful in many situations, especially for games like 8-ball where less cue ball movement is needed.
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Good post with a couple caveats. Yes smoke filled pool rooms may have had some cheap, slow cloth back in the 70's or 80's but like I mentioned previously, Simonis has been the go-to cloth for over 30 years now. Also, the play of the cushions has as much to do with the overall table speed as the cloth does and lively Gold Crowns have been around since the 60's. You can pull up old 14.1 matches with the great of your choice, playing on a fast Gold Crown. They moved the balls around with ease on those GC tourney tables.

Same with the balls. We've have phenolic balls for how long now? It's hard to beat the old Brunswick Centennials and those have been with us for quite some time. Anyway, we're a couple generations removed from clay balls.

Amateurs: Play on whatever brings you enjoyment.
Pros: Play on challenging equipment.

Simple as that.
 
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BasementDweller said:
Amateurs: Play on whatever brings you enjoyment.
Pros: Play on challenging equipment.

Simple as that.
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Great points. I'd add amateurs also play on whatever is available, and select their favorite from this. Pros of course have a preference, but will practice on whatever table they will be chasing their bread on (for obvious reasons)
 
Flakeandrun said:
Great points. I'd add amateurs also play on whatever is available, and select their favorite from this. Pros of course have a preference, but will practice on whatever table they will be chasing their bread on (for obvious reasons)
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At my local pool hall there is no pocket larger than 4.5" in the entire building. We don't have a choice.
 
skip100 said:
At my local pool hall there is no pocket larger than 4.5" in the entire building. We don't have a choice.
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I think there really should be something available to highlight the difference between those otherworldly players, to give a taste to the amateur of just how much more consistent, and skillful that they are than us. I think every hall should have some 'tough tables' for those looking to test themselves or improve their play.
I think I posted earlier in the thread about where I am, that there is barely any halls with pockets bigger than 4.25" to be found in any hall, and you might see the odd bar table at 4.5" (I assume this is in part due to the abundance of Chinese-8 tables, and general preference of snooker pockets outweighing square-jawed tables)
 
If this were some rare phenomenon isolated at the pro level and at a single table at the front of the poolroom then it wouldn't matter. Unfortunately, it's not. It has spread throughout pool and is only getting worse. It's like forcing every golfer regardless of their handicap to play from the 7300-yard PGA Tour tees.
 
skip100 said:
If this were some rare phenomenon isolated at the pro level and at a single table at the front of the poolroom then it wouldn't matter. Unfortunately, it's not. It has spread throughout pool and is only getting worse. It's like forcing every golfer regardless of their handicap to play from the 7300-yard PGA Tour tees.
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There certainly needs to be a balance. Listening to what people would like to play on, but also allowing patrons to get a taste of what the professional game is played on.
The best hall I ever went to so far, was in Macau. It was brand new (so the only thing this place was missing was the gangster nostalgia vibe of the old halls there), by memory; there was 6 x Star snooker tables, 6 x Chinese-8 tables, 6 x 4.5" American Tables (I think they were Brunswick), 5 x 4.25" Rasson/Mr.Sung tables and 5 x 4" Rasson/Mr.Sung tables (the tables all used Dynapsheres - Palladium for Chinese-8 and Rasson tables, Tungsten for the other tables and Aramith on the snooker tables).
I will ask my friend and confirm, as it was owned by his friend and we got to use it before it officially opened.
Might have a look through my phone see if I can find a photo. This place had something for everyone, and I think that Is the way it should be.
 
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I have a video, but I don't know how to post that here. I only have one picture of my friend playing on the 4" Rasson (Remember it well, as it was a pretty great day in all actually, managed to hit a few skate spots and filmed a few bits for a friends video, ate some insanely good food and finished with a few frames in an amazing hall that was not even technically open yet).
There is actually 10 x Star snooker tables and 8 x Chinese-8. The other information was correct. Macau are big on their snooker, much like HK.

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There's room in the world for both chunky AND creamy peanut butter. Variety is the spice of life and every table doesn't need to be the same. As long as both players are playing on the same table by the same rules, the game is fair. If some players favor certain conditions, all the better. We'll get to watch and learn how different play styles work in varying situations and attempt to adapt these techniques to our own play.
 
Flakeandrun said:
Thanks, that's far too much effort. Also marks up my Channel which I use for content relating to a different topic. Would be good to be able to just upload directly here from the file/phone
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In YT you can mark a video as “unlisted” so it won’t show up on your channel, but can still be shared or embedded with the URL.

It’s just as easy as them having a video upload feature here, plus the copy/paste of the url.
 
Flakeandrun said:
Didn't know that. Will try and give it a bash later. Cheers bud.
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Or, create another YT acct dedicated to pool content. I bet you’d have an interesting channel.

Uploading vids, or even live streaming, from your phone with the YT app is so fast and easy. Hope you give it a try.
 
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