Do you think too much?

[krupa]

Of course you know all that stuff, you have to in order to be able to play the game, even at a rudimentary level. But you can learn all that just by playing and watching other great players, you don't have to get it from a book, or a DVD, or Dr. Dave's website, or even though lessons.

Sure, you can learn a lot from watching and playing other players. No one has ever argued that. But just because you can get the knowledge from other players (if they're willing to share it, or you're willing to devote time you probably don't have to staring at them to eventually glean it), doesn't mean that other ways for getting that information are bad.

There's a lot to be said for standing on the shoulders of giants. If we used the old school pool model for learning everything, we'd still be trying to reliably make fire.

Look at how fast a child learns things. There is a youngster not 10 miles from me who learned how to shoot pretty good at 2 years old just by sitting in his high chair watching his dad run hundreds of racks of 9-ball every day since he was an infant. He learned how to stroke and shoot balls in the hole before he even learned to talk! At five years old he was pretty damn impressive, and his dad claims he is still improving. Another Shane (who also claims to have largely taught himself the finer aspects of the game)? Who knows?

Sure, the same could be said for Tiger Woods. Start a kid off early enough, give him (or her) a perfect role model to emulate, and there's no telling how far that kid could go. For the rest of us... there are books and knowledgeable people willing to share that knowledge.

I don't think it's so much how much you know that could stand in your way, but maybe how you came to know it. That's the gist of the argument in the article as best as I understand it.

I don't think that that was the author's point. His point, as I read it, was simply that we need to do more than just hammer facts into kids heads. But he got rambly and digressed into talking about his relationship with his father and it was hard to figure out his point. Overall, in terms of clarity, the author gets a D for that article.

 

[DAVE_M]

But seriously, all the fluid intelligence in the world is pretty useless without enough data intelligence to make it work.

This answers the OP's question and should end the discussion right here.

 

[336Robin]

How you came to know it.

Of course you know all that stuff, you have to in order to be able to play the game, even at a rudimentary level. But you can learn all that just by playing and watching other great players, you don't have to get it from a book, or a DVD, or Dr. Dave's website, or even though lessons.

Look at how fast a child learns things. There is a youngster not 10 miles from me who learned how to shoot pretty good at 2 years old just by sitting in his high chair watching his dad run hundreds of racks of 9-ball every day since he was an infant. He learned how to stroke and shoot balls in the hole before he even learned to talk! At five years old he was pretty damn impressive, and his dad claims he is still improving. Another Shane (who also claims to have largely taught himself the finer aspects of the game)? Who knows?

I don't think it's so much how much you know that could stand in your way, but maybe how you came to know it. That's the gist of the argument in the article as best as I understand it.

The how you came to know it part can as I suggested earlier be a bigger issue.

Many people who are ready for ideas will be able to accept another easier angle whereas a lot of people really need to hit their head on the wall for awhile before it occurs to them there might be a better way.

I and Im sure a lot of people have some experience I would rather not relive where I was given some information by someone who intentionally wanted to seem in the know about things and made what we were discussing seem so mysterious and complicated. Usually when I see that I stand back and relook and find it really isnt.

However you get to know the information that you know to me the first part is the ability to receive it. Now for me I want to know how things work if I can figure out how things work then I can work with that better than if I have to learn completely by rote and just do it.

If something is a bit too large for me I tend to step back see what is going on around me. Its curse of the business I retired from but served me well.

 

[krupa]

Who decides what a good bridge is? You have to decide that for yourself.

I know of a few players that use less than traditional bridges and can run around a table with no problem.

What a good bridge should be: support for your cue that enables you to consistently hit the cueball exactly where you want to.

You don't need a book to tell you this and I think people with really bad bridges (as compared to this criteria) would agree with it if you told them, but then they would get to the table and do the same loosey-goosey bridge that completely violates it.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

My take-away from the article: Next time someone tells me I spend too much time playing pool, I can say "I'm developing my fluid intelligence."

But seriously, all the fluid intelligence in the world is pretty useless without enough data intelligence to make it work.

Yes, we all finally have a legitimate excuse! Lol

Bob, thanks for actually reading the article, but I hope the takeaway message wasn't that information is harmful in and of itself. I think he states his position rather well in the title (better than I did at any rate). "Too much crystalized thinking" is not the same as none at all. There needs to be a better balance if you want to be great at anything, with the scales leaning heavily toward the side of more doing rather than more thinking.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

The how you came to know it part can as I suggested earlier be a bigger issue.

Many people who are ready for ideas will be able to accept another easier angle whereas a lot of people really need to hit their head on the wall for awhile before it occurs to them there might be a better way.

Yes, I agree. My opinion is that the more thinking about a problem that you do, the less likely that you will accept a fresh and novel solution when it is presented. Excessive thinking and reduction of the problem into its various components reduces the likelihood that you will come up with another solution that falls outside of mainstream thought. This is why very few truly momentous discoveries in physics have come from men out of their 20s. The old guys now know so much they simply have lost the ability to look at a problem with a beginner's mind.

 

[336Robin]

Interesting Observation

Yes, I agree. My opinion is that the more thinking about a problem that you do, the less likely that you will accept a fresh and novel solution when it is presented. Excessive thinking and reduction of the problem into its various components reduces the likelihood that you will come up with another solution that falls outside of mainstream thought. This is why very few truly momentous discoveries in physics have come from men out of their 20s. The old guys now know so much they simply have lost the ability to look at a problem with a beginner's mind.

Thats an interesting collection of facts that apply to some of what goes on here on these forums.

I see people stuck in a mindset without ever stepping back to see what they are really doing and I think we all are prone to do that in certain instances. I myself have had a few things I really wanted to make work but it was clear at every turn it just wasn't going to the way I wanted it to.

A client of mine told me this:

My mother told a few things I will never forget:
1. Eventually people will show you who they are....so believe them
2. You can't change people they have to change themselves
3. The hardest person you will ever have to work to get by...is yourself

I find these things are pretty solid and since that time I have tried to back up when something isn't working before I waste too much time trying and beating my head against the wall. Even knowing this much sometimes its hard to do, when you want something to work out and obviously isn't. I have an area right now that I'm placing way on the back burner because of this one thing. It might be it isn't supposed to work out until its time.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Danny,

I've said before that I started playing at 13, a couple of years before taking physics in H.S. & later in college.

I am very thankful that I started playing before the physics education & I am also very thankful for the physics education.

To your point, I think what you may be referring to can be inhibitive. If...it is simply a statement that someone has relayed to an individual & that individual simply takes it as fact without having a full & complete understanding of what that statement says & may be able to affect it & what can not affect it.

I know you know what I mean.

The thing is also that some individuals are just more adept at recognizing problems & finding solutions than others.

Knowledge is good but the wisdom to know when to not over apply it is just as good.

Like when NASA was moving a large piece of equipment that would not fit under an overpass.

The engineers were studying the situation & looking at where they could break down the overpass possibly jack it up so the piece could fit under.

Then a kid on the side of the road watching the mess just said to the engineers, 'Why don't you just let some air out of the tires?'

:wink:
Rick

 

[philly]

Danny,

I've said before that I started playing at 13, a couple of years before taking physics in H.S. & later in college.

I am very thankful that I started playing before the physics education & I am also very thankful for the physics education.

To your point, I think what you may be referring to can be inhibitive. If...it is simply a statement that someone has relayed to an individual & that individual simply takes it as fact without having a full & complete understanding of what that statement says & may be able to affect it & what can not affect it.

I know you know what I mean.

The thing is also that some individuals are just more adept at recognizing problems & finding solutions than others.

Knowledge is good but the wisdom to know when to not over apply it is just as good.

Like when NASA was moving a large piece of equipment that would not fit under an overpass.

The engineers were studying the situation & looking at where they could break down the overpass possibly jack it up so the piece could fit under.

Then a kid on the side of the road watching the mess just said to the engineers, 'Why don't you just let some air out of the tires?'

:wink:
Rick

Everybody is different, obviously. As I stated earlier in the thread I believe most pool players are feel players. My son also plays. He has an undergrad degree in computer science and a masters in engineering. He has to know the physics of everything including pool. He has the ability to apply the physics. I think the over analysis confuses most players including myself.

 

[pdcue]

Is it possible that the scientific and mathematical knowledge that so many of us pursue is actually detrimental to our ability to solve problems at the table? Do we have too much "crystalized intelligence" vs. "fluid intelligence"? Can that be what is actually holding some of us back from reaching our true potential?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...ystallized-thinking-lowers-fluid-intelligence

I'm really interested in the thoughts of some of the better players here about how accumulating large amounts of knowledge affects their game, either for the better or for the worse. How about the best in the world? Is it possible that the lack of in-depth knowledge of the science behind the game actually helped them to achieve their level of play by letting their fluid intelligence develop unencumbered by scientific fact?

If you think AT ALL at the table its too much.

In the sense of 'think' as used by the players of pool.

Dale(finally good at nonthinking)

 

[JoeyA]

Once you understand how it is done and you can repeatedly do what needs to be done, thinking is sort of fast-forwarded and doesn't require much thinking and at the highest level of play, the less thinking the better, imo. If you haven't acquired the knowledge of what to do, how to do, when to do then I guess that is what's holding you back, not thinking too much.

However, I and most everyone else plays best when not thinking so much but it sure helps to have some physical knowledge to back up your instinctive play.

In my opinion, the more knowledge I possess the better I play. At least that's been the case for me, most of my life. Might be different for others.

JoeyA

Is it possible that the scientific and mathematical knowledge that so many of us pursue is actually detrimental to our ability to solve problems at the table? Do we have too much "crystalized intelligence" vs. "fluid intelligence"? Can that be what is actually holding some of us back from reaching our true potential?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...ystallized-thinking-lowers-fluid-intelligence

I'm really interested in the thoughts of some of the better players here about how accumulating large amounts of knowledge affects their game, either for the better or for the worse. How about the best in the world? Is it possible that the lack of in-depth knowledge of the science behind the game actually helped them to achieve their level of play by letting their fluid intelligence develop unencumbered by scientific fact?

 

[336Robin]

Motivation

Once you understand how it is done and you can repeatedly do what needs to be done, thinking is sort of fast-forwarded and doesn't require much thinking and at the highest level of play, the less thinking the better, imo. If you haven't acquired the knowledge of what to do, how to do, when to do then I guess that is what's holding you back, not thinking too much.

However, I and most everyone else plays best when not thinking so much but it sure helps to have some physical knowledge to back up your instinctive play.

In my opinion, the more knowledge I possess the better I play. At least that's been the case for me, most of my life. Might be different for others.

JoeyA

These days I really am starting to enjoy my game. I enjoy working on new stuff and I can practice by myself and drink a brew and be totally entertained occasionally I get motivated to play super competively but it doesnt happen often. Im just way too easy going these days but not this past Feb but the year before I got motivated and went and entered a Saturday night event it was races to 2 but you got several losses I think I got 4. So I drew some better players the first half of the night and they get me on 3 losses and something kicked in and I went through undefeated the rest of night until the end at about 330 in the morning when I broke dry and never got back to the table.

I had hit a gear now I knew what I was doing, how I was doing it but it was like I saw things different. I knew what I was supposed to do in each situation and did it so automatic and natural it was like it was someone else playing and a few of the guys said your sort on fire there arent you? And I was.

The next week I couldnt get it going like that and after that I spent some time thinking about what caused me to kick in that gear and I thought about how to go about doing it again. For me its a motivation that I need, I can do it but I have to decide to and I could care less about gambling and all that stress, Ive had enough of both. If I can make myself decide that its important I can do it. I enjoy a good competitive game and guy Im really playing is myself.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

I probably do, sometimes. Over think a shot maybe. Or, I suppose, under-think a shot.
In any event, the important thing would be to think the right shot. This kind of visualization is evident when we watch the better players play.
I've always believed that the best shot, or at least the correct shot, is the one first seen by the mind's eye.

 

[JoeyA]

All of the great sport psychologists will tell you that......

JoeyA

 

[edep12]

I definitely think you can (I can) over think things. I think all of the information out there nowadays is a good thing, but it's also a case of diminishing returns. I'll give you my personal example...

When I first started golfing, I was pretty bad, but I was addicted and read everything I could get my hands on and tried most of the things I read. I hit balls daily (until my hands bled). Absolutely became obsessed with it. It led to "paralysis by analysis" where I had so many swing thoughts in my head that I couldn't have hit a ball straight/solid if lightning had struck me in my back swing.

Fast forward many years and now I am a single digit handicapper and can't remember the last time I read anything about improving my game. I rarely, if ever, practice and can go weeks without hitting a ball and still go out and post a sub 80 round. I'm not sure what this all means, but I'm sure there is a lesson in there somewhere for somebody smarter than me to sort it all out.

I think golf is a lot like pool where it can be counter intuitive (i.e. beginner golfers with bad slices have a tendency to aim more left to compensate, but if they are not careful they will actually set their bodies up to hit an "intentional" cut shot - or a ball that flies left to right...which is what they are trying NOT to do to begin with) and it seems like the more you "want" to do good, the more you muscles subconsciously tighten up which invariably leads to you doing even worse. Some of my best rounds of golf or best sessions of pool have come when I was tired or a little burnt out and just didn't care as much about my results. It truly frees you up to play your best. Now if you could only bottle that and trick your mind into feeling that way on command...that's when you would really have something.

 

[Poolmanis]

Yeah. Knowledge can make you think too much if you don´t practice to put that knowledge part of your game. After that it is practical.

You need knowledge first. Then you practice that so it will be(repeatable) part of your game with so little effort as possible. Then you learn something new. Rinse. Repeat.

I heard this stuff so long I can´t even remember. Many talented players refuse to learn new because they fear it might mess their "natural" talent.
Time goes and I play against them again and i noticed they still are okay players but they never get any better... Then they say "I would be X-times better than you if i practiced as much like you do"

Many players pick up a lot of knowledge just watching to pros play. They just don´t notice they get that knowledge and try emulate it.

 

[SmoothStroke]

There could be a lot to think about on one shot or it could be just a simple 1 ft stop shot. You better think each and every one of them through completely, a hanger requires thought.

It's he who computes these thoughts quickly that remains even.

If Shane plays a shot with extreme spin 4 rails through traffic for position or a possible safe, maybe a 2 way shot, and tells you he didn't think about it....Bullcrap...He processes the info quickly, so quickly that he may have looked at 3 other options before his choice.

AZB is famous for making the game so complicated. Recognize your options or choices and select. Once you have decided, don't look back, just execute. Tunnel vision doesn’t work on a pool table.

You must compute the info quickly otherwise prepare for the state mental institution.

I have two words to say about not thinking………Bullcrap

You must compute before you shoot, do it quick or sit on your stick looking like Gilbert Gottfried.

Sincerely: SS

 

[MitchAlsup]

Is it possible that the scientific and mathematical knowledge that so many of us pursue is actually detrimental to our ability to solve problems at the table?

I am going to go with: Yes.

However my employer pays me $300+K per year for performing this for them, so for right now, I'm OK with it.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I am going to go with: Yes.

However my employer pays me $300+K per year for performing this for them, so for right now, I'm OK with it.

Great answer! Goes right to the heart of the matter, too.

Yes, some of us have no choice, either by nature or by necessity. I have a strong tendency to over think almost everything in my life. Always have. I suspect it's just in my nature.

I try my best to override this tendency when I do things like play pool, but I am aware that there is a huge collection of facts and understanding about numerous aspects from my life that is always trying to subvert my "higher" (unconscious) self with a bunch of trivial and unrelated thought processes. These facts I have dubbed my "block of knowledge". Everybody has one, some bigger than others. I'm very proud of my block, and love to impress friends and family with my personal cornucopia of useful (and sometimes useless) facts. Psychologists have a name for this block - "crystalized intelligence". It is the sum of all the things we "know" to be true in the universe, either learned by experience, or by the second-hand absorption of the experiences of others (reading, watching, lessons, and such methods).

"Fluid intelligence" OTOH has to do with problem solving, pattern recognition, spatial orientation, reasoning and logic, etc. It does not depend on the accumulation of factual knowledge, and has been thought to be inhibited to various degrees by too much crystalized intelligence ("information overload"). We seem to lose our ability to tap into our fluid intelligence as we get older (fluid intelligence has been shown to decline with age), and our block of knowledge expands with all sorts of facts. Why reinvent the wheel every time we need one when we already have a perfectly functional wheel at our disposal? Meaning, "Why bother to work out a new and novel solution when we can simply draw on the established facts already stored in our brain?

I believe that pool is best learned and played using our fluid intelligence. I even believe that may be a huge part of the allure of the game. This is our native intelligence, the intelligence we were brought into this world with before an ocean of facts came along and crystalized our thinking into an easier and more manageable world to live in. We secretly yearn to get back to that state. Playing pool offers an opportunity to return to our original nature, but first you have to be able to let go of the facts and just see what is presented in front of you and go with it. I would call that state "dead stroke".

 

[336Robin]

Natural Alignments and Feel

I definitely think you can (I can) over think things. I think all of the information out there nowadays is a good thing, but it's also a case of diminishing returns. I'll give you my personal example...

When I first started golfing, I was pretty bad, but I was addicted and read everything I could get my hands on and tried most of the things I read. I hit balls daily (until my hands bled). Absolutely became obsessed with it. It led to "paralysis by analysis" where I had so many swing thoughts in my head that I couldn't have hit a ball straight/solid if lightning had struck me in my back swing.

Fast forward many years and now I am a single digit handicapper and can't remember the last time I read anything about improving my game. I rarely, if ever, practice and can go weeks without hitting a ball and still go out and post a sub 80 round. I'm not sure what this all means, but I'm sure there is a lesson in there somewhere for somebody smarter than me to sort it all out.

I think golf is a lot like pool where it can be counter intuitive (i.e. beginner golfers with bad slices have a tendency to aim more left to compensate, but if they are not careful they will actually set their bodies up to hit an "intentional" cut shot - or a ball that flies left to right...which is what they are trying NOT to do to begin with) and it seems like the more you "want" to do good, the more you muscles subconsciously tighten up which invariably leads to you doing even worse. Some of my best rounds of golf or best sessions of pool have come when I was tired or a little burnt out and just didn't care as much about my results. It truly frees you up to play your best. Now if you could only bottle that and trick your mind into feeling that way on command...that's when you would really have something.

Edep,
When you do something well I can definitely identify that over thinking it can get in the way and your natural alignments that you know you need to make suffer so once you get the mess out of your mind you can sometimes better do what you know you need to. I think at that level it works exactly that way.

At others when people do not understand how to align is when people are seeking the answers and thats a tough time for folks who might not have a good idea on how to fix it on their own.

Yeah. Knowledge can make you think too much if you don´t practice to put that knowledge part of your game. After that it is practical.

You need knowledge first. Then you practice that so it will be(repeatable) part of your game with so little effort as possible. Then you learn something new. Rinse. Repeat.

I heard this stuff so long I can´t even remember. Many talented players refuse to learn new because they fear it might mess their "natural" talent.
Time goes and I play against them again and i noticed they still are okay players but they never get any better... Then they say "I would be X-times better than you if i practiced as much like you do"

Many players pick up a lot of knowledge just watching to pros play. They just don´t notice they get that knowledge and try emulate it.

Poolmanis,
Lots of truth in your post. I was out seeking some answers once when I first came back to playing and the man I took a lesson from introduced something to my game that shattered it literally in pieces but, it was what needed to have been done. I had days I played great but as many I did not because I didnt know how I did much of anything. It takes some soul searching to tear you game down when you know that is what is going to happen. I didnt know, but when it happened I had only one choice and that was get past it. I can understand how people know but dont want to change.