Does anyone actually believe GAMBLING will

Roger Long said:
Dick,

I don't blame you for not wanting to play Tommy for "funnsie's" again. It can't be a lot of fun when you woof a diminutive non-gambling Christian 9-Ball player like Tommy Kennedy into playing you in your home room, at your best game (1-Pocket), in front of all of your buddies, and then be beaten 2-1.:o Isn't it just sickening how that little squirt can bear down and play so good for FUN?:frown:

Roger

p.s. Don't feel too bad, I'm sure things would have turned out a lot differently if you could have gotten Tommy to bet something.:wink:
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He's just probably setting him up to play for "double the fun."
 
#$%%^% nosey pool room detectives !!!!Next

crawfish said:
He's just probably setting him up to play for "double the fun."
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Crawfish, Boy what a knocker you are! I had him all set up to play "triple funnsies" or nothing......but he backed down !

Dick

PS Hi Roger, long time no see. Next time you see Tommy K., tell him I want a chance to get even. Oh, wait, I'm not loser am I ? Just kidding,
I woofed at everybody in those days. I was such a heathen!
 
i play for nothing all the time, and it can be good practice.
but nothing is like gambling. you want to improve, gamble.
 
lewdo26 said:
So maybe this is why playing for money is such an uncomfortable thing for you?

You associate playing for money with irresponsibility and unfairness.

See, I'm not a megalomaniac. I play what I can afford and when I feel I have a chance to win. If you don't want to call that gambling, don't.

It's just that at this point in my development, it's noticeable that when I play for giggles my game drops in comparison to when I play competitively. I also get bored practicing in a vacuum. I have to practice shots that I missed or misplayed in competition.

I think that happened spontaneously, as I always sought to test my comfort levels.
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You're taking what I said out of the context that I meant it. What I'm saying is that everyone is talking about gambling like they're stone cold gamblers. They're not. It's only gambling when you stand to lose something. Losing money means nothing if you can still make rent. It's also not gambling if you're taking a spot from someone. Go up against someone with equal or better ability than you and play them even for a lot of money, that's gambling.

I have a friend that I play with quite a bit and we usually play races to 10 for a buck a rack and split the difference in the score. If you win 10-9 you win a dollar, if you win 10-1 you win 9 dollars etc.... a buck per break run out and we also double the pay if it's 10-0. So, in a sense, yes, I bet regularly, but to me this is not "gambling." I don't stand to lose anything. I can afford to drop, worst case scenario, 20-40 bucks on a few sets of pool. Only thing that gets hurt is my pride for losing to this person and that feeling doesn't change if we're playing for fun or putting some money on it.

One thing I can't do is play without a goal. I don't like just shooting games. I much prefer if it's a set with a definite end point. I've been at the table just playing games and I couldn't make a ball or was just shooting around. We decided to play sets and I came alive. I guess it's because I play tournaments, or used to play tournaments, all the time.
MULLY
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Gambling improves your execution. If you practice a hard shot 1000x and make it 60% of the time in practice, and then you setup the same shot and I bet you $1000 that you miss it.... your odds just dropped to 30% at best no matter how much you practiced it. It's human nature.

Now, conversely, if you make that same shot 60% while betting decent money on it and I ask you to make it for fun, you might only make it 40% because your heart isn't into it.

Being a hardened gambler develops your heart. Heart makes you NOT FLINCH during a time of crisis.

Playing for funnies will never develop that... I dont care if you shoot that shot 10000x.... if the world ENDS if you miss it......AND your HEART is not developed.....the pocket will either look like a thimble or your shooting hand will feel like Michael J. Fox the millisecond before impact.
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I find you post very interesting, and I will give it a 6 on a 1-10 SCALE.
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But the one area you forgot to mention is the Human Being who is distracted from their PLAYABILITY but the fact that if they loose they are out MONEY. The loss of money is hanging over their head like a big rock.
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Those people I feel should not GAMBLE, as that money could be a a BIG DEAL to those individuals.
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There is a guy here in the Valley in his early 30?s, as Gulf War I Veteran on total VA Disability for some bad things that happen in Iraq during Gulf War I. He always wants to gamble, and shall we say does do a good job of money management. Personally if I was a gamble I would not gamble with this guy, because it would not feel right to me. But as I alway tell him if you want to play for a beer for you, or Ice Tea for me,fine, but anything more than that the answer is no.
 
Gambling vs pressure vs focus

Gambling does nothing for your pool game except add pressure. So the question really becomes: "Does playing under pressure make you a better player?" The answer to that is still no. Pressure does nothing for your pool game except steer your focus in certain direction. Your focus may be on the game, the shot, or the pressure source (in the case of gambling the pressure source if of course the money), or any number of other things.

Bill Gates would feel no pressure at all playing a set for $10,000. The money just wouldn't be a good enough pressure source to to affect his game one way or another. I think this statement alone is enough to show that gambling by itself won't improve anyone's game.

Even pressure by itself won't do it. I could tell someone that if they lose someone in the crowd would shoot them. This would provide quite a bit of pressure, but then it would become a question of where their focus centers. Do they focus entirely on every shot and solely on that shot, or will some (or even most) of their focus be on the fact that they'll be shot if they lose? My point is that if any of their focus is diverted from the shotmaking process then the pressure is now harming their game rather than helping it, as further evidenced by the people mentioned who play great under gambling pressure, but fold under tournament pressure. There is pressure in both cases, in one case they play lights out, in another they fold like a cheap chair. So, pressure by itself won't improve anyone's game either.

Having said all that, I'd say that there are really only two things that improve a pool player's skill:
1. Knowledge
2. Practice

As far as gaining knowledge goes, it's probably true that the best way to get it in the past was to play the great players who had it, and the only way they'd play you was if you were gambling. So, maybe gambling used to be a shortcut for gaining knowledge, but I don't think it's worth it any more what with all the books, videos, accu-stats matches of great players, pool instructors, etc. available today.

What I think gambling can do is give you experience playing under pressure. The only way to become adept at focusing under pressure is to practice focusing under pressure, and gambling (for most of us here) a $10,000 set would definitely apply the pressure we're looking for. After doing it a few times, we'll get used to that pressure and be able to focus better on shotmaking in spite of it.

So does gambling make you play better? No, gambling makes you play worse because it applies pressure and pressure tends to divert focus. The experience can be useful though if you feel pressure coming on.

If a robot was built that could play pool, pressure wouldn't apply and it certainly wouldn't care if there was money on the game.

Sorry for the long post.
 
Read posts #9 and #10 on this thread, I know alot about gambling, the addiction, etc. those 2 posts touch on part of what I know, and they address the question of this thread, i put some time into them, they should read easy and answere alot of questions here, yes gambling does make you a better player and it is possible for some people to gamble and not have a problem with it, while others will become problem gamblers.


http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=1269494#post1269494
 
here is post #9

you can bet on pool and not have a gambling problem, just playing for the rush of winning is a gambling problem. I studied the psychology behind gambling when I was in college, and a certain % of people get a sertonin and dopmine high from gambling and they become degenerate gamblers and lose it all, my ex girl friend was a gambler when I met her I said "me or video poker" she chose me, when I left her she blew 1.3 million in video poker, her daughter this past semister in 8th grade got 5 F'f on her report card, I cut off her royalty paycheck when I colsed my biz 6 weeks ago, she was getting $5,000/week and ALL her bills paid, she is flat broke and every credit card is maxed out, I own the house she lives in I told her she has to move, the business gig is up, she started it for me and we had a contract-she cost me a ton of $$$, now she wants more. She is shit out of luck. Her case is a degenerate gambler, i have many more stories when you lived in vegas for almost 20 years nothing will shock you.

my point is not everyone who is in action in a pool room suffers from the chemical imbalance in their brain that makes it ok to lose $2000 to win $1000 because the rush feels so good, I have seen people like that in pool they dont last long. I dont get a rush when I win, sure I like it but it has never gave me a high, casino gambling puts me to sleep. Compulsive gambling to those people who get a high out of it is a progressive disease and they all end up in a bad spot in life, there are a few pro pool players who come to Vegas and cant leave town because when ever thy get enough $$$ to leave they go to a casino and take a shot-they have the disease.

It is possible to be in action everyday and not have a gambling problem, I was and thats when I did the reseach on seeing If I had a gambling problem, I didnt think so, looking back I know I dont. I can walk into a casion with $50,000 and play $5 black jack lose $100 and leave, i'm not chasing that rush because I dont get it, sure I have made some big scores and there was no rush, I have made more than I will tell in one month in business 5 years ago and it felt good but there wasnt a high-over 7 figures in a month big. It all boils down to a compulsive personality, some people get that rush from sex and become sex addicts, or food(sure it feels good to eat ice cream) but I will never weigh 300 pounds, I like being around 225-250 I can control my weight I go to 250 when i was on Roids body building, Fast cars are a rush too. When you have a pleasure trigger that over rides safyt, financial security, death from being a lard ass, a drunk, or degenerate gambler the drug weather its pool, ice cream, booze, too many roids isnt the problem the drug is never the probelm its the person and how they handle it and some people cant handle it-its not their fault thats why they classify it a disease. The vice or drug aint ever the problem if it aint pool its something else, most of the time when you go to a casion the fattest person at the table 21, roulette etc has the most $$$ bet, a pshchologist I know here in Vegas told me to watch for that and perhaps 65% or 2/3 of the time the fattest person has the most bet or the person drinking the most, they have multiple pleasure buttons.


So the idea that gambling at pool makes you a degenerate gambler is true if your brain is wired like that is true, if your brain isnt wired like that then you can be in action to make you bear down which does everytime make you a better player, period! Also back when I was in action after I lost the guy who beat me would give me a tip on a shot I blew, kinda like paying for lessions, when I beat weaker players I did the same thing, if it was big action then there wasnt the lession after the game. So by being in action before the internet was a sure fire way to get lesssions from better players, I gave lessions to weaker players and they kept commiong back, I used that $$ from weaker players to step up and play better players, like grady said $$$ was cupons for action. Action means growth for up and comming players and keeping long time players in stroke.
 
cigjonser said:
Gambling does nothing for your pool game except add pressure. So the question really becomes: "Does playing under pressure make you a better player?" The answer to that is still no. Pressure does nothing for your pool game except steer your focus in certain direction. Your focus may be on the game, the shot, or the pressure source (in the case of gambling the pressure source if of course the money), or any number of other things.

Bill Gates would feel no pressure at all playing a set for $10,000. The money just wouldn't be a good enough pressure source to to affect his game one way or another. I think this statement alone is enough to show that gambling by itself won't improve anyone's game.

Even pressure by itself won't do it. I could tell someone that if they lose someone in the crowd would shoot them. This would provide quite a bit of pressure, but then it would become a question of where their focus centers. Do they focus entirely on every shot and solely on that shot, or will some (or even most) of their focus be on the fact that they'll be shot if they lose? My point is that if any of their focus is diverted from the shotmaking process then the pressure is now harming their game rather than helping it, as further evidenced by the people mentioned who play great under gambling pressure, but fold under tournament pressure. There is pressure in both cases, in one case they play lights out, in another they fold like a cheap chair. So, pressure by itself won't improve anyone's game either.

Having said all that, I'd say that there are really only two things that improve a pool player's skill:
1. Knowledge
2. Practice

As far as gaining knowledge goes, it's probably true that the best way to get it in the past was to play the great players who had it, and the only way they'd play you was if you were gambling. So, maybe gambling used to be a shortcut for gaining knowledge, but I don't think it's worth it any more what with all the books, videos, accu-stats matches of great players, pool instructors, etc. available today.

What I think gambling can do is give you experience playing under pressure. The only way to become adept at focusing under pressure is to practice focusing under pressure, and gambling (for most of us here) a $10,000 set would definitely apply the pressure we're looking for. After doing it a few times, we'll get used to that pressure and be able to focus better on shotmaking in spite of it.

So does gambling make you play better? No, gambling makes you play worse because it applies pressure and pressure tends to divert focus. The experience can be useful though if you feel pressure coming on.

If a robot was built that could play pool, pressure wouldn't apply and it certainly wouldn't care if there was money on the game.

Sorry for the long post.
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goodpost.gif
 
here is post #10

also one other thing, to check to see if you have a gambling problem is simple, say you lose $500 or $1000 playing pool or betting on the rail, enough $$$ to notice and piss you off but not enough to make you sleep in the street-you have more than enough to bet again that night, it might be $50 for some guys I was like that for years, so just think of what that number is for you it dosent matter how big or small, for me its about $3000-when I lose $3,000 i'm pissed, plane and simple.

Ok so here is the test: Fatboy loses $3,000 betting on the wrong guy on the rail, or when I was in Reno this past Dec my eye was going bad(its ok now) I lost $1200 to a guy I know he wanted to keep playing, I did too but couldnt-I couldnt see. But back to my point I lose the $3,000-HOW BAD DO I WANT TO GET $$$ IN ACTION AGAIN TO GET EVEN??? OR PLAY THE GUY AGAIN AND WIN??? If you cant stand it and want to get a bet down so bad you cant think straight so you can get even, then you have a gambling problem, If you can sit there with $9,000 left in your pocket after losing $3,000 and are pissed but not going to start chasing by going to a poker room, taking the worst of it on another bet just to have a chance toi get even then you most likely do NOT have a problem.


The guys who can walk away from a loss and are not going crazy inside typicually dont have a gambling problem.

Also if you can put a bet down for that number I just talked about and go to the room and go to sleep, telling someone to call when the game is finished up, you probably dont have a problem either, the guys who have to see everyshot and sweat it hard sometimes have a bit of a gambling problem or are more likely to devlope a gambling problem, this isnt anywhere near as serious as the "I gotta get even before I can leave people" but another signal of a potential problem, some people just like to sweat it out and that rush is enough and never develope a gambling problem, infact i dont like to sweat matches I bet on, or if I do I dont think of the bet.

So there are a couple of ways to check and see how likely yu are to having a problem, can you walk away loser? and to a much lesser extent do you have to sweat your bet(for rail bets)?


I have done alot of reasearch on this topic as it has facinated me since I was about 16, i cant cite any referances but I have done alot of reading, talked to GA(because of my ex girl), went to a shrink for the same reason-he was telling me about all sorts of reasons why people gamble or like the big gambler image like Tooth, they Female escape players who go play 24 hour sessions of video poker to escape their stress of kids etc they just zone out on Video poker, which is the 2nd hardest gambling addiction to stop, horses have the strongest hold, "Hold"=hardest to stop playing, roulette is the easiest but I have a friend here in Vegas thats been playing that game and living with no car making $100,000/year as a telemarketer because the roulette keeps him busted for the past 25 years, he lives in the hood no phone, cell phone usually doisent have any minutes on it cause he is busted, he bites me for $$$ here and there, I've seen it all and stuidyed it-instead of spelling,

the past 2 posts are factual and not my opinion, just what I have been told by the people who are experts in this field of psychocology and also articles i have read.

eric
 
Everyone has their own formula for success, IMO

Yes, I do agree,gambling is a good way to put heat on yourself to perform under pressure. Nobody likes to lose money, I dont care who ya are!!!!
IMO, you have to have consequences if you miss a shot or an out.
Everyone has their own formula for success and to improve.
I think the variables in each individual formula are the same, but each player has a different mix of the variables to becoming a good player.

Knowledge - Good teachers,surrounding yourself with good players, books,videos.
Practice - Of course, this is a no brainer.
Mental game - focus, concentration, self confidence.(believing in yourself)
Gambling - Putting money on the table to teach yourself to bare down and do it.(knowing if you dont, there are consequences)
Competition - Competing in tournaments (either big or small)

I think these are the basic variables required to becoming a good player.
Everyone has their own path.(formula)
Some are more prone to gambling, and some are prone to more tournament play. Whichever it is, once you learn how to play, the mental game(IMO) is absolutely vital to becoming a champion!!!
BTW, I think we are all aware that none of us ever stop learning this game, ever!!!!
Just my thoughts and theory. Whatever its worth.

And I might add, I think if your personal life is in good order, your pool game will follow suit.
Happiness breeds good results, IMO.
 
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Attn. non-gambling flamers !!!

SpiderWebComm said:
There are exceptions to every rule. Different strokes for different folks kinda thing....BUT...

I don't think anyone in this thread can possibly argue the fact that the majority of pool players universe-wide feel that gambling helps their game more than "trying hard when they practice."

It is what it is. Like gambling or not, more people think it's a benefit rather than a crutch.
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Very true words Spiderman, I can only name one person who made it to the highest level in pool, not gambling, and thats Mosconi. However I can name you several hundred top notch players who honed their skills by gambling. And you WILL improve,younger and faster.
We live in a materialistic, money driven, society and pool (and many other sports) have always had a "put your money where your mouth is" philosophy. As I've said before, the average man on the street has as much (or more) larceny in him than the average hustler.Only most of them try to win by playing the lottery or slot machines.( or 3 card monty)
I have never been a fan of the two bit scuff, who would dump his mother for $5. But a healthy match-up between two grown men, with enough $$$$ to make it interesting, Has always been the American way. If I over cut the 9 ball, for one of Willie's trophies, I won't give a rat's ass, but if I do it for my case $$$$, I will be royally pissed. But imparting that to a non-gambler is even harder than getting them to bet two St. Bernard's could whip a Chihauha. JMHO

Dick

PS Milo, rep to you for a good post from a more subdued train of thought.
 
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brandoncook26 said:
Neither Ralf Souqet or Thorsten Hohman gamble and they are two of the best in the world.
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some really good players are not good gamblers .....tournaments -gambling -funsies ....are all different games .....
 
Fatboy said:
also one other thing, to check to see if you have a gambling problem is simple, say you lose $500 or $1000 playing pool or betting on the rail, enough $$$ to notice and piss you off but not enough to make you sleep in the street-you have more than enough to bet again that night, it might be $50 for some guys I was like that for years, so just think of what that number is for you it dosent matter how big or small, for me its about $3000-when I lose $3,000 i'm pissed, plane and simple.

Ok so here is the test: Fatboy loses $3,000 betting on the wrong guy on the rail, or when I was in Reno this past Dec my eye was going bad(its ok now) I lost $1200 to a guy I know he wanted to keep playing, I did too but couldnt-I couldnt see. But back to my point I lose the $3,000-HOW BAD DO I WANT TO GET $$$ IN ACTION AGAIN TO GET EVEN??? OR PLAY THE GUY AGAIN AND WIN??? If you cant stand it and want to get a bet down so bad you cant think straight so you can get even, then you have a gambling problem, If you can sit there with $9,000 left in your pocket after losing $3,000 and are pissed but not going to start chasing by going to a poker room, taking the worst of it on another bet just to have a chance toi get even then you most likely do NOT have a problem.


The guys who can walk away from a loss and are not going crazy inside typicually dont have a gambling problem.

Also if you can put a bet down for that number I just talked about and go to the room and go to sleep, telling someone to call when the game is finished up, you probably dont have a problem either, the guys who have to see everyshot and sweat it hard sometimes have a bit of a gambling problem or are more likely to devlope a gambling problem, this isnt anywhere near as serious as the "I gotta get even before I can leave people" but another signal of a potential problem, some people just like to sweat it out and that rush is enough and never develope a gambling problem, infact i dont like to sweat matches I bet on, or if I do I dont think of the bet.

So there are a couple of ways to check and see how likely yu are to having a problem, can you walk away loser? and to a much lesser extent do you have to sweat your bet(for rail bets)?


I have done alot of reasearch on this topic as it has facinated me since I was about 16, i cant cite any referances but I have done alot of reading, talked to GA(because of my ex girl), went to a shrink for the same reason-he was telling me about all sorts of reasons why people gamble or like the big gambler image like Tooth, they Female escape players who go play 24 hour sessions of video poker to escape their stress of kids etc they just zone out on Video poker, which is the 2nd hardest gambling addiction to stop, horses have the strongest hold, "Hold"=hardest to stop playing, roulette is the easiest but I have a friend here in Vegas thats been playing that game and living with no car making $100,000/year as a telemarketer because the roulette keeps him busted for the past 25 years, he lives in the hood no phone, cell phone usually doisent have any minutes on it cause he is busted, he bites me for $$$ here and there, I've seen it all and stuidyed it-instead of spelling,

the past 2 posts are factual and not my opinion, just what I have been told by the people who are experts in this field of psychocology and also articles i have read.

eric
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WOW ....there is a guy with a problem .....! you may have to write a book someday ...
 
does not make you better

only pool players think they need to gamble to get better

if it was so beneficial, it would be applied to more sports
 
smashmouth said:
does not make you better

only pool players think they need to gamble to get better

if it was so beneficial, it would be applied to more sports
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"You talkin' ta me" ? ( my Robert De nero impersonation)
Name me one sport, with NO GAMBLING in it. Oh I forgot Badminton !
Dick
 
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hippiepool said:
WOW ....there is a guy with a problem .....! you may have to write a book someday ...
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:confused: :confused: :confused: I'm confused, writing isnt my best skill thats for sure.
 
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