Does Efren Owe America Or The World?

[Bayawak]

I think Mr. Reyes has already paid the debt to the game. He proved, once and for all, that you don't need to be a spoiled/pampered/cue-breaking/sharking/arrogant asshole to be the greatest of all-time. The man is a true inspiration and can be easily held up as a role model to the kids for generations to come.

I think you nailed the proverbial nail in the head with this statement.

There has never been a time or a place where Mr. Reyes was never a gentleman. I remember hanging out with him two years ago at the US Open and it was past midnight at the pool hall in Norfolk. While waiting for a match, Mr. Reyes got drowsy and began dozing off. A group of fans saw him and because this was the only time for them to get autographs from him decided to rudely interrupt his nap. Mr. Reyes woke up with a start and was clearly disoriented by the sudden interruption, but when he realized what was happening, he very graciously smiled, grabbed their pens and started scribbling on their cues, shirts, and what have you.

Now, if that happened to Archer or Strickland, what do you think could have happened? Either they will get a tongue lashing or worse, a cue broken over their head, (I'm exagerrating, of course) but that scenario
wouldn't be too far-fetched.

So for somebody to imply that Mr. Reyes owes something to the world or to anybody else because of his skills and excellence is totally absurd and asinine!!

 

[JoeyA]

Efren Owes The World - Part 1

To say that Efren "owes" something seems to suggest that he's been overcompensated for his contribution Aaron

----------------
Aaron, no rant, just your opinion and post is appreciated like the rest of the posts in this thread. There are certainly many different ones, some insightful thoughts and perspectives while others are just naive thoughts tugging at the old heart strings. LOL

The truth is and of course this is MY opinion is EFREN does owe the world. But first a few clarifications.

There is no doubt:
That Efren earned everything he has.
He has paid his dues.
He is one talented fellow.
He is a gentleman.
He is compassionate.

I have actually discussed this subject with some of his countrymen and THEY too believe EFREN OWES THE WORLD.

What he owes the world is some type of roadmap, some type of verbal record, some type of visual record that brands his style of play and one that attempts to describe how HE sees the game played in his mind.

It doesn't matter if Efren can or cannot communicate all of the nuances of what he does. An experienced and fluent speaker/writer of the English language and his language would be needed but that person also must be able to play at a high level of play so that questions may be asked of Efren to enhance the clarity of his answers.

Efren needs to do this NOW before he is too old to walk the walk. Efren is able to talk the talk and walk the walk today but today doesn't last forever and it would be a shame if Efren has to wait until his playing days are over to bask in the sunshine he so richly deserves. When he is no longer able to perform at this level and is asked to demonstrate a shot that is in one of his intructional videos and he can only give a semblance of what the shot could be can you imagine how he will feel?

FTR, there are rumors that it is not he who holds out from developing instructional videos but the people who manage him. I understand that there are other people besides PUYAT that are involved in business with Efren and they are very opinionated about what Efren does, how and when he does it. If this is the case, then Efren is at their mercy and his fate is sealed in this regard unless his managers realize that there is money in it for them as well. If as some people on this forum believe, all of his instructional videos will have no effect on the rest of the poolplayers of the world because it is only something that Efren is capable of doing.

But personally I think for his own satisfaction, the bottom line is Efren needs to do this now and not later.
JoeyA

 

[rossaroni]

Efren needs to do this NOW before he is too old to walk the walk. Efren is able to talk the talk and walk the walk today but today doesn't last forever and it would be a shame if Efren has to wait until his playing days are over to bask in the sunshine he so richly deserves. When he is no longer able to perform at this level and is asked to demonstrate a shot that is in one of his intructional videos and he can only give a semblance of what the shot could be can you imagine how he will feel.JoeyA

Maybe Efren should make a video now, and wait until he can't play anymore to release it to the public. This may be a long wait though!

P.S. I also agree that Efren does not owe anything. He already has done more then any other pool player I can think of. If he wants to do it, great, but in no way do I think he owes anyone.

 

[Aaron_S]

What he owes the world is some type of roadmap, some type of verbal record, some type of visual record that brands his style of play and one that attempts to describe how HE sees the game played in his mind.

It doesn't matter if Efren can or cannot communicate all of the nuances of what he does. An experienced and fluent speaker/writer of the English language and his language would be needed but that person also must be able to play at a high level of play so that questions may be asked of Efren to enhance the clarity of his answers.

Hi Joey,

I certainly understand where you're coming from, and, while I would love to garner some knowledge of the internal workings of Efren as much as anyone, I'm not sure if such an effort would yield substantial results, even with the aid of a fluent interpreter/writer/player. Like some others, I consider what Efren does on the pool table to be more akin to art than science, and I honestly would expect any effort to boil "Efrenese" down into some formula or philosophy that could be successfully conveyed through a video or book to fail miserably.

I think everyone has been disappointed at some point with an instructional book or video they obtained, because they expected it to be the holy grail of whatever discipline they were studying, and found that it wasn't that different than other attempts by other authors. If I learned that Efren was working on an instructional video, then I would plan on purchasing it, but I certainly wouldn't let myself get overly excited about it. To do so would be setting myself up for disappointment, I'm afraid. I don't know; I just can't help but feel that the things I would really like to learn from Efren simply couldn't be conveyed in a book or video.

That being said, I'd absolutely love for Efren to prove me wrong, of course

I do not, however, think that Efren should feel obligated to make such an effort. IMO, the videos of his matches say more than any instructional video ever could. Plus, if the video didn't live up to everyone's expectations (and how could it, really?), then there would inevitably be those who would say "oh, he just did it for the money", and "he's just a sellout", etc.

As always, JMHO

Aaron

 

[Bayawak]

Efren Reyes

Hi Joey,

I certainly understand where you're coming from, and, while I would love to garner some knowledge of the internal workings of Efren as much as anyone, I'm not sure if such an effort would yield substantial results, even with the aid of a fluent interpreter/writer/player. Like some others, I consider what Efren does on the pool table to be more akin to art than science, and I honestly would expect any effort to boil "Efrenese" down into some formula or philosophy that could be successfully conveyed through a video or book to fail miserably.

I think everyone has been disappointed at some point with an instructional book or video they obtained, because they expected it to be the holy grail of whatever discipline they were studying, and found that it wasn't that different than other attempts by other authors. If I learned that Efren was working on an instructional video, then I would plan on purchasing it, but I certainly wouldn't let myself get overly excited about it. To do so would be setting myself up for disappointment, I'm afraid. I don't know; I just can't help but feel that the things I would really like to learn from Efren simply couldn't be conveyed in a book or video.

That being said, I'd absolutely love for Efren to prove me wrong, of course

I do not, however, think that Efren should feel obligated to make such an effort. IMO, the videos of his matches say more than any instructional video ever could. Plus, if the video didn't live up to everyone's expectations (and how could it, really?), then there would inevitably be those who would say "oh, he just did it for the money", and "he's just a sellout", etc.

As always, JMHO

Aaron

Hi Aaron,

Thank you for your insight and eloquence.

You are a true gentleman and a scholar of the game of pool!!!

Bayawak aka "Tirador"

 

[PKM]

I agree with Aaron_S, that's why you rarely hear people demanding such things from superstars in other sports. Do we need Michael Jordan to demonstrate a jumpshot, Wayne Gretzky to demonstrate a slapshot, or in this case Efren to demonstrate some 2-rail kick or some creative safety? They have something that cannot possibly be articulated, and that includes (IMO) Efren's strategy or thinking about any particular game.

 

[Aaron_S]

Hi Aaron,

Thank you for your insight and eloquence.

You are a true gentleman and a scholar of the game of pool!!!

Bayawak aka "Tirador"

You are much too kind, Bayawak, but thank you for the compliment.

Good rolls,
Aaron

 

[thrasher789]

I dont think "owe" is the right word. The money he has taken out of this country was there for the taking to whoever was good enough to do so. So no, I wouldnt say he owes anyone anything for that.
As far as the game goes....... I think the true measure of a champion is giving back to the game itself. It could be sponsering young players to help them get started, coaching etc or even making videos. Although I would be concerned about the content of said videos...... Efren strikes me as someone with a huge amount of skill and talent....... but doesnt really know what he is doing as far as being able to teach it. He just knows what to do, and has the skill to do it consistantly.
But back to the original question.......... no, he doesnt owe America anything. He in my opinion owes the game though, as all champions do.
Chuck

Couldn't have said it better myself; I certainly don't think owe is the right word, he sure didn't come over here and steal our money, he became the best at what he does and earned it. So much can be learned from 'studying' his play that I think that in itself is his gift to us, and the world for that matter.

 

[Renegade]

I'd be happy if someone just came out with a book on efren, or a collection of his most amazing shots and wins.

somehow, browsing through the meager collection of pool-related books out there, efren is rarely mentioned, or if ever, sorely lacking the attention he so truly deserves.

Heck, even books of records (guinness, almanacs, etc.) don't even give much attention to pool in general. maybe we should get a petition going....

 

[JoeyA]

I'd be happy if someone just came out with a book on efren, or a collection of his most amazing shots and wins.

somehow, browsing through the meager collection of pool-related books out there, efren is rarely mentioned, or if ever, sorely lacking the attention he so truly deserves.

Heck, even books of records (guinness, almanacs, etc.) don't even give much attention to pool in general. maybe we should get a petition going....

If there is a market for a product one will be born. In fact if it is nothing more than a collection of his most amazing shots and wins, we already have that in Accu-Stats and youtube.com

Apparently there is no market for such a thing. People just don't want it bad enough.

joeyA

 

[JoeyA]

Hi Joey,

I certainly understand where you're coming from, and, while I would love to garner some knowledge of the internal workings of Efren as much as anyone, I'm not sure if such an effort would yield substantial results, even with the aid of a fluent interpreter/writer/player. Like some others, I consider what Efren does on the pool table to be more akin to art than science, and I honestly would expect any effort to boil "Efrenese" down into some formula or philosophy that could be successfully conveyed through a video or book to fail miserably.

I think everyone has been disappointed at some point with an instructional book or video they obtained, because they expected it to be the holy grail of whatever discipline they were studying, and found that it wasn't that different than other attempts by other authors. If I learned that Efren was working on an instructional video, then I would plan on purchasing it, but I certainly wouldn't let myself get overly excited about it. To do so would be setting myself up for disappointment, I'm afraid. I don't know; I just can't help but feel that the things I would really like to learn from Efren simply couldn't be conveyed in a book or video.

That being said, I'd absolutely love for Efren to prove me wrong, of course

I do not, however, think that Efren should feel obligated to make such an effort. IMO, the videos of his matches say more than any instructional video ever could. Plus, if the video didn't live up to everyone's expectations (and how could it, really?), then there would inevitably be those who would say "oh, he just did it for the money", and "he's just a sellout", etc.

As always, JMHO

Aaron

Nice thoughts Aaron but I doubt anyone would say he is a sellout and I doubt that you would be disappointed in what he thinks or says.

Personally, I wouldn't care if he has the intelligence or vocabulary of a 3rd grader. A record of how he thinks and what he thinks is a glimpse of his genius on the field of green. I think it is possible that my desire for information could even be satisfied with him commentating other matches. I guess I want to know more about him and the way he thinks and there doesn't appear to be much information on him. Unlike many of the Azers who have posted their opinions in this thread, I think much can be learned from instructional videos and books of like matter. I have learned something from every book I have ever read even those about pool.


JoeyA

 

[John Barton]

I'd be happy if someone just came out with a book on efren, or a collection of his most amazing shots and wins.

somehow, browsing through the meager collection of pool-related books out there, efren is rarely mentioned, or if ever, sorely lacking the attention he so truly deserves.

Heck, even books of records (guinness, almanacs, etc.) don't even give much attention to pool in general. maybe we should get a petition going....

I would too.

Here is a start;

Capelle On 9-Ball: Archer vs Reyes, VHS and Book

"This book / VHS tape combo is an innovative approach to billiards instruction. The famed instructor, columnist, and author Phil Capelle has done it again! The video portion of this package is the complete famous match-up of Johnny Archer and Efren Reyes at the Sands Open 23 in 1996. This match was filmed and produced by Accu-Stats Video Productions, and is presented just as it was aired. Bill Incardona is the commentator. The second part of the video analyzes the 25 most important shots of this match in great detail. Using special effects, you can easily see the great moves and devastating mistakes the pros made, and learn from their experience. The book starts by taking you shot-by-shot through the match. Key shots are diagrammed to scale. In this first part of the book, there are over 100 lessons to help you improve your game. Learn pattern play, position, and defense. The second part of the book teaches you how to think and play like a pro. Learn how the pros use their time during a match. See the break techniques the players employed. See when they used what bridge. Learn what techniques worked for each player, and what things they did that hurt their chances at victory. Any pro will tell you that a sure-fire way to improve your game is to watch the pros. With this package, you can not just watch, but STUDY TO WIN." from the website description.

Available at: http://www.cuesight.com/cavhnb.html

 

[Aaron_S]

I think it is possible that my desire for information could even be satisfied with him commentating other matches. JoeyA

You know, I think you may have struck on something here. What about a series of one-pocket matches with voice commentary by Efren? They could use pre-recorded matches, so Efren could do commentary on his own matches as well as the matches of other players. By using pre-recorded matches, they would also eliminate the headache of trying to do live commentary with Efren and an interpreter in the booth, and they could pause the video for a few seconds if a particular situation required extended commentary. I'd certainly pay good money for that type of video.

Again, I want to be clear that I don't think Efren should feel obligated to do anything like this, but I must admit that I'm sitting here drooling just thinking about it. This, to me, is much more exciting than the thought of a straight instructional video, and, if Efren did want to make an attempt to share some of his knowledge, I think this would be a great way to go about it. Good suggestion, Joey.

Aaron

 

[RobertR]

FTR, there are rumors that it is not he who holds out from developing instructional videos but the people who manage him. I understand that there are other people besides PUYAT that are involved in business with Efren and they are very opinionated about what Efren does, how and when he does it.

There may be some truth to this rumor. There was a recent thread here about a book, something about "pool, the philipino way". In the book, they made allusions to the philipino secret, although it was all very vague (according the the reviewer). If Efren were to give those alleged 'secrets' away, the entire philipino mystique could be shattered.

 

[JoeyA]

There may be some truth to this rumor. There was a recent thread here about a book, something about "pool, the philipino way". In the book, they made allusions to the philipino secret, although it was all very vague (according the the reviewer). If Efren were to give those alleged 'secrets' away, the entire philipino mystique could be shattered.

That was probably IMSHARRA (SP?) the fellow who claimed to have all of the secrets to playing pool wrapped up in one package available for a nice fee.
JoeyA

 

[JoeyA]

Learn the Filipino SECRETS

There may be some truth to this rumor. There was a recent thread here about a book, something about "pool, the philipino way". In the book, they made allusions to the philipino secret, although it was all very vague (according the the reviewer). If Efren were to give those alleged 'secrets' away, the entire philipino mystique could be shattered.

Let me give a little free advertisement for the author:
http://filipinopool.com/book/index.shtml

Is this the book you are talking about?

It sounds interesting. Has anyone on AZ read it yet?

JoeyA

 

[ShootingArts]

Let me give a little free advertisement for the author:
http://filipinopool.com/book/index.shtml

Is this the book you are talking about?

It sounds interesting. Has anyone on AZ read it yet?

JoeyA

I haven't read it but it seems like a hell of a deal. The secrets of the world for a mere twenty bucks. Wonder if it is ghosted by the same guy selling miracle cure books.

Hu

 

[JoeyA]

I haven't read it but it seems like a hell of a deal. The secrets of the world for a mere twenty bucks. Wonder if it is ghosted by the same guy selling miracle cure books.

Hu

I googled up the guy's name I think he was from India: IMMSHARMA
If you want to have some fun, google him under advanced group searches for some interesting threads. He may have given some other authors a hand in writing a book or two.

FTR, Kevin Trudeau has just sent another payment to the players, up to 44 per cent I believe. If the players get paid in full, would everyone on AZ give Kevin Trudeau and the IPT a break? LOL
JoeyA (not waiting)

 

[Handsumm]

Efren doesn't owe anybody shit

 

[ShootingArts]

FTR, Kevin Trudeau has just sent another payment to the players, up to 44 per cent I believe. If the players get paid in full, would everyone on AZ give Kevin Trudeau and the IPT a break? LOL
JoeyA (not waiting)

Not a chance!!

I'm not sure if the players are at 33% or 44% with the skipped payments and such. Like you I don't have any eggs in that basket anyway. On the plus side, if KT does pay them out in full, that will be the closest thing to a retirement plan most of the players ever see!

I'll go read some of the book author's stuff when I get a chance. The last time I bought into such a thing was in 1970. I paid ten bucks for a twenty-six page pamphlet that was advertised as a book. Without the small pages, large print, and cartoons it would not have went three pages. I gave it away.

I think a real big chunk of the secret to the Filipino pool dominance is that it is seen as the best shot and almost the only shot at success by many there. If many people eat, sleep, and breathe pool for years, some will get pretty good at it. I think even my game would improve if I went back to playing over sixty hours a week for a few years and I am blind, cripple, and crazy. Another thing is that the level of competition hones a player. When the others have Efren to learn from and constantly compete with, world class ability is barely adequate.

Hu