Mark Twain was being ironic. That was his claim to fame. He was a billiard lover. Take it to the bank. He was being ironic.
Fred
Does the table condition really matter??
- Thread starter Neil
- Start date
Fred
All things being equal:
Bad equipment is the same for both players - there should be no advantage either way.
However....
If one player is head-over-shoulders better than the other player, bad equipment favors the BETTER player--- not the worse player. The better player is able to adjust quickly in the midst of battle-- the lessor player is less likely to do so.
Even if the worse player plays on shit equipment all day long--- that does not mean he/she is used to it (that's why they suck--- they're not used to anything).
I honestly think it doesn't matter. If there is a slight advantage, shit equipment always favors the better player.
Bad equipment is the same for both players - there should be no advantage either way.
However....
If one player is head-over-shoulders better than the other player, bad equipment favors the BETTER player--- not the worse player. The better player is able to adjust quickly in the midst of battle-- the lessor player is less likely to do so.
Even if the worse player plays on shit equipment all day long--- that does not mean he/she is used to it (that's why they suck--- they're not used to anything).
I honestly think it doesn't matter. If there is a slight advantage, shit equipment always favors the better player.
IMO , in a straight up even match it shouldn't matter very much but when one side is handicapped then poor conditions favor the weaker player.
If I'm giving away alot of weight then I can not afford give up any errors that were produced because of the table. Especially when your talking about short races on bucket pocket bar boxes where 3's and 4's can already get out regularly.
Same is true for just about any handicapped sport. Bad lane conditions bring down better bowlers more and effect weaker bowlers less. If I'm a scratch bowlers , I need to string strikes just to make my average where a 150 doesn't need any at all to make theres and spare shooting isn't really lane dependant.
Golf , same deal. Bad greens hurt me more since I need to putt under 2 per hole to shoot scratch where a weaker golfer is probably going to make the same number of putts regardless and thier probably not needing to hold as many greens to shoot thiers either.
If I'm giving away alot of weight then I can not afford give up any errors that were produced because of the table. Especially when your talking about short races on bucket pocket bar boxes where 3's and 4's can already get out regularly.
Same is true for just about any handicapped sport. Bad lane conditions bring down better bowlers more and effect weaker bowlers less. If I'm a scratch bowlers , I need to string strikes just to make my average where a 150 doesn't need any at all to make theres and spare shooting isn't really lane dependant.
Golf , same deal. Bad greens hurt me more since I need to putt under 2 per hole to shoot scratch where a weaker golfer is probably going to make the same number of putts regardless and thier probably not needing to hold as many greens to shoot thiers either.
FireBlade-
You make valid points. However, as a good player.... you need to play on a lot more shit municipal courses with bare spots on the greens and rocks in the bunkers. If you always play in perfect conditions, you'll never know how to play in not-perfect conditions (which is the HUGE majority of the time).
If all you play on is perfect 860 simonis with perfect rails and Centennial balls.... you'll never know how to play on fuzz-felt with dead rails and a mixed set of balls. You might have to crack-in a good player with the shit equip in some random bar to get the cash. If you play in 100 random pool halls and bars, the odds are--- the majority have shit equipment.
This exact subject came up at Hopkins recent 10b tournament in Valley Forge, PA. When I heard some people say the rails were super bouncy, I asked Allen about adjusting. He told me what separates the men from the boys is the ability to run-out on anything, in any room, in any state--- not just your home-perfect equipment. "Allen-- how long does it take you to adjust to alien equipment?" ANSWER: "Just a few balls and I'm ready."
I've spoken to other players about this subject and the answers are all identical: learn to play in less than ideal conditions becomes that's where most of the cash resides.
Put Tiger on your local shit municipal course...the rocky bunkers and bumpy greens won't make him shoot a 75.... he'll likely shoot a 60.
Edit: I'd like to hear what John Schmidt and Chris Bartram say about this subject.
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I don't disagree but like I said , handicapping changes things. Basically , I play most sports with no handicap. In order to shoot at a scratch level there has to be conditions to allow that to happen. If your game is in the middle of the pack and your getting a handicap , bad conditions are mostly likely not going to impact that persons game.
So like I said , if I average 1.8 putts around and I'm on a course where your lucky to only 2 putt , shooting my average is not even possible where a high handicapper is going to 3 putt most of the time either way.
Since you added I'll add 
we're also talking about the 'average' player , not the absolute best players in the world.
Putting Tiger on a Muni is not really a fair comparison tho , put him on at Bay Hill with very dry firm aerated greens and see if he still shoots the same score.
we're also talking about the 'average' player , not the absolute best players in the world.Putting Tiger on a Muni is not really a fair comparison tho , put him on at Bay Hill with very dry firm aerated greens and see if he still shoots the same score.
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Seems like there would still be a minimum standard for table quality, especially in a world-class tournament. After all, it's supposed to be about who's the best player, not who's best at playing on bad tables.
I mean, if you take the "it's the same for all" logic to extremes, you could have tables with bumpers sticking up in the middle, no rails, zebra-striped cloth, and play outside in 20 degree weather, then stand back and say "hey, don't complain, it's the same for everybody!" You get my point.
Ruark
I mean, if you take the "it's the same for all" logic to extremes, you could have tables with bumpers sticking up in the middle, no rails, zebra-striped cloth, and play outside in 20 degree weather, then stand back and say "hey, don't complain, it's the same for everybody!" You get my point.
Ruark
What's not really been mentioned here - and it matters a lot in the short races in the APA... The better player expects to run out more often, and he expects to do it utilizing his speed & cueball control offensively & defensively. He's actually more likely to be hurt by poor equipment that hampers his expectations than is the player who has lower expectations, and expects to run out less because they HAVE TO allow for a wider margin for error & bigger shape zones. The better player KNOWS what should happen to a larger extent under given circumstances and applying given speed & control. True in a longer race the better player will have time to "zone in" on how to beat his opponent, but in these short races these "errors" - resulting from equipment that can play well outside an educated norm - will cost more to the player that bets more on their ability to execute at a high standard. You find youself having to "hold back" on your ability - so you're playing against your opponent and the poor equipment, and you're doing it without being able to use your well honed skills.
If it matters... I am a 7 in APA 8 ball, have been for almost 20 yrs. I'm so fortunate to be able to choose to play nearly exclusively in "in-house" leagues. So while the equipment isn't always optimal - I do get a chance to acclimate within reason. If I find bad equipment, I go somewhere else.
On Thursday, I play in a scratch "Vegas" division of a VNEA 8 Ball league. No handicaps - load 'em up & bring 'em in. Over 1/2 of the players are intermediate to masters. We play on ALL 7 ft Valleys w/ Simonis 860 & Aramith cue balls. Great!!!
If it matters... I am a 7 in APA 8 ball, have been for almost 20 yrs. I'm so fortunate to be able to choose to play nearly exclusively in "in-house" leagues. So while the equipment isn't always optimal - I do get a chance to acclimate within reason. If I find bad equipment, I go somewhere else.
On Thursday, I play in a scratch "Vegas" division of a VNEA 8 Ball league. No handicaps - load 'em up & bring 'em in. Over 1/2 of the players are intermediate to masters. We play on ALL 7 ft Valleys w/ Simonis 860 & Aramith cue balls. Great!!!
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THe upper-middle gets it the worst
Thats what I think anyway.. The bangers dont know what their doing to begin with so they dont know whst their suppose to be adjusting they just keep fireing away.. The good players are good of course they can adjust. There was one of the best players from my area down there for the first time he stated "you cant play how you're used too" that didnt stop him from winning a few minis but hes good shit great compared to me. I'd be willing to bet he wouldnt be gambling for 1000 in those conditions... Now take the good 6's weak 7's (I'm in there somwhere) They (I) can play better than some if things are comfortable, but adjust, once what I think is going to happen doesnt and I have to start changeing the skills I have, forget it, the wheels just fall off, I'm not good enough. The hardest thing about those conditions for me is the speed, I cant make myself hit the cue ball that hard the felt is so damn slow. And the rails from table to table that was a pain, one table is live the next is as dead as Elvis, that just isnt right. When I tried kicking at the ball and the cue ball flew off the table because the nose of the rail was so low, there isnt anybody adjusting to that.
Thats what I think anyway.. The bangers dont know what their doing to begin with so they dont know whst their suppose to be adjusting they just keep fireing away.. The good players are good of course they can adjust. There was one of the best players from my area down there for the first time he stated "you cant play how you're used too" that didnt stop him from winning a few minis but hes good shit great compared to me. I'd be willing to bet he wouldnt be gambling for 1000 in those conditions... Now take the good 6's weak 7's (I'm in there somwhere) They (I) can play better than some if things are comfortable, but adjust, once what I think is going to happen doesnt and I have to start changeing the skills I have, forget it, the wheels just fall off, I'm not good enough. The hardest thing about those conditions for me is the speed, I cant make myself hit the cue ball that hard the felt is so damn slow. And the rails from table to table that was a pain, one table is live the next is as dead as Elvis, that just isnt right. When I tried kicking at the ball and the cue ball flew off the table because the nose of the rail was so low, there isnt anybody adjusting to that.
Anyway, I think the point of that other thread you mention was not sour grapes, but rather why on earth would the APA allow such horridly-configured tables on the floor of their premier event. (The pictures in that thread are quite laughable -- with the cloth folds on the OUTSIDE of the rail, instead of inside the pocket facing.)
Anyway, my $0.02, that I picked up off the floor...
-Sean
Indeed. I agree that in longer matches the better player will probably win because if he gets to play long enough he will be able to adjust to the conditions. However, I once lost a qualifying tournament due to the table. I had played on the table all afternoon. Only one in the place
With the final match tied hill-hill I was running out with what looked like perfect shape on the 7 ball, when the cue ball picked up speed and rolled a quarter of an inch to the right hooking me behind the 8. I kicked and wasn't even close. My opponent got out and just shook his head when shaking my hand. He knew, as did everyone else who was watching, that I should have won. I hadn't had anything like that happen all day.
I could care less if it is the APA or a local/regional tourney. I think as a product, if people are spending money and the promoters want the SPORT of pocket billiards to succeed, they need to strive for excellence. One way would be to provide quality equipment.
Imagine watching golf on TV if they never cut the grass, and the whole course was just a big rough with a few algae-filled ponds and sandpits dotted around.
Golfers expect a well maintained green and course. players respect the course by replaced divots, not using clubs on greens, ect.
if a NATIONAL level tourney provides crappy Valley tables that are not covered properly with horrible rails, how is this different from a national golf event where they did not mow the grass?
Any TD or organization putting together these events without quality equipment, or without creating respect for the sport we love, are not helping but keeping us down.
Back to the original topic, the table conditions DO matter. It is a different game if played on crappy equipment, especially in a short race.
Imagine watching golf on TV if they never cut the grass, and the whole course was just a big rough with a few algae-filled ponds and sandpits dotted around.
Golfers expect a well maintained green and course. players respect the course by replaced divots, not using clubs on greens, ect.
if a NATIONAL level tourney provides crappy Valley tables that are not covered properly with horrible rails, how is this different from a national golf event where they did not mow the grass?
Any TD or organization putting together these events without quality equipment, or without creating respect for the sport we love, are not helping but keeping us down.
Back to the original topic, the table conditions DO matter. It is a different game if played on crappy equipment, especially in a short race.