Dominant Eye before any aiming system

[BilliardsAbout]

I'm not exactly clear on all of that. My recollection is that I wanted to find a head position where 1/2 ball cuts appeared the same cutting left or right. That position is not a vision center as defined.

Yes, I see. It would be a vision center if the head position that made the 1/2 ball cuts appear the same cutting left or right made a stop shot look dead straight.

Having said that, sometimes on cuts I invite a student to move their head laterally off VC, to better see the target on the OB/overlap/ball path to center pocket. However, that exception is typically for rather thin cuts. So if we were working together:

1) We would test VC on fairly thick angles, not half ball hits

2) We would discuss your aim perceptions, how you try to aim a half ball shot

3) Etc.

 

[Dan White]

Yes, I see. It would be a vision center if the head position that made the 1/2 ball cuts appear the same cutting left or right made a stop shot look dead straight.

Having said that, sometimes on cuts I invite a student to move their head laterally off VC, to better see the target on the OB/overlap/ball path to center pocket. However, that exception is typically for rather thin cuts. So if we were working together:

1) We would test VC on fairly thick angles, not half ball hits

2) We would discuss your aim perceptions, how you try to aim a half ball shot

3) Etc.

It would be nice if someone who was an expert in visual perception also became a pool player. It feels like we're missing something. My VC 20 years ago is not what it is today, I believe, but I'm not sure, I think maybe.

 

[Poolmanis]

I'm not exactly clear on all of that. My recollection is that I wanted to find a head position where 1/2 ball cuts appeared the same cutting left or right. That position is not a vision center as defined.

This is hard to do most of players. I believe if we started learning with this goal it would be easier than try to get fixed later.

 

[Oikawa]

I always find it hard to imagine what people mean when they say that a left or right cut has a different/skewed perception. I align/aim with focus on the peripheral vision of my right eye only, ignoring the left eye's peripheral vision images completely. I look at the OB and align the OB/CB overlap, and stick/CB/OB alignment, with the latter having the final say, utilizing the right eye's peripheral image, so even if my head position is off by a few millimeters (slightly wrong CB/OB alignment), I can just do a microadjustment with the stick (and bridge hand), and have 100% trust in my aim from the stick being aligned properly in relation to the CB and OB, with the image that my right eye gives me.

In this sense, my shot image is the perception of where the stick (as seen through my right eye using peripheral vision) is pointing at both the CB and the OB, and I never experience left or right cuts differently, even if I'm very (fully?) right eye dominant, and aim using my right eye only. I have sometimes experimented with closing my left eye and playing shots, just to confirm if I really aim as I think I do, and I indeed do only use the right eye, closing the left one makes no difference in terms of my alignment/shotmaking. But obviously I keep my left eye open while playing as it's fully functional, and has other benefits than aiming, such as depth perception helping me not accidentally hit the CB with the stick.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I always find it hard to imagine what people mean when they say that a left or right cut has a different/skewed perception.

I imagine the difference is more perceptual than visual - but I don't know what that means, exactly.

pj
chgo

 

[BRKNRUN]

Here are some ponderings on vision center and then an experiment....

Is vision center CB to OB or CB to pocket or the entire triangle CB to pocket + CB to OB and OB to pocket.....

My thoughts are (if there is an actual vision venter) it would be CB to OB contact point......(but how do you determine the contact point without including the pocket/target)....that being said I think vision center may change during the PSR from the "Triangle" to the CB to OB.

Now here is an experiment and how I think may be an easy way to determine your vision center for alignment.........and also dominant eye.....for CB to OB alignment.

Make a circle on each hand with your first finger and thumb......with both eyes open move your circles so that you can see both your CB and OB through the two circles......again with both eyes open.......I believe this will be your vision center....no close one eye.....if the CB and OB remain in the circles...that is your dominant eye.....If the CB/OB move out of the circles...that is your submissive eye.

 

[bbb]

@Dan White
dan if you set up this straight shot
and do what nic says
and find the head position where all looks straight
are you saying your current playing head position where right and left cuts seem equal and cueing action is"natural"
is NOT this head position?

 

[Poolmanis]

@Dan White
dan if you set up this straight shot
and do what nic says
and find the head position where all looks straight
are you saying your current playing head position where right and left cuts seem equal and cueing action is"natural"
is NOT this head position?

hmm. This is interesting. I try this setup both sides of half ball hit for sure

 

[BilliardsAbout]

It would be nice if someone who was an expert in visual perception also became a pool player. It feels like we're missing something. My VC 20 years ago is not what it is today, I believe, but I'm not sure, I think maybe.

Most right-handers I've done VC with have theirs about halfway between their right eye and their nose--incredibly, students have had the same VC even before and after the catastrophic loss of one eye!

For some, they can make a lot of good cuts if the VC is in place, with less than ideal mechanics. It can put me off a bit myself if I forget and go back to under the chin--most people have neither pure binocular (chin) nor pure monocular (just beneath the eye) vision/VC.

I think of pool like baseball, my sighting is with one eye closer to the target, though I regard the target with both of my eyes at once.

 

[Dan White]

@Dan White
dan if you set up this straight shot
and do what nic says
and find the head position where all looks straight
are you saying your current playing head position where right and left cuts seem equal and cueing action is"natural"
is NOT this head position?

First off, I think there are two kinds of "looks straight." One is where I was many years ago where I put the cue wherever it felt natural and everything looked to be in alignment, but wasn't. The cue was angled a bit and then as I took the cue back I corrected the angle before going forward again. I think that could lead to inconsistencies. The second is where the alignment really is straight but you are not putting your head over the cue such that you can see that ob/cb/cue shaft straight alignment. Your head is off to one side of the cue so that you are not attempting to see straight down that line. Why would anyone do that (other than Stan)? For me it gave a better arm motion but more than that it allowed half-ball cuts to work both ways.

I'm left-handed. If I set up a center table half-ball cut shot and my head is in the "vision center" position the cut left generally works OK but the cut to the right misses fat. If I move my head to the right and try to keep the same straight alignment both shots get shifted left, and vice versa if I move the head to the left. I have found that shooting under the inside corner of the non-dominant eye allowed both cut shots to work when aiming at the half-ball. I recall that I spent a lot of time with this with lasers and hole reinforcers setting up shots to make sure I was not fooling myself.

If I could choose to line up at the VC and make everything be on I would do that. To the best of my knowledge that is not an option. I generally shoot with great accuracy as things are so I moved on to other things, time being short and all.

 

[Dan White]

Most right-handers I've done VC with have theirs about halfway between their right eye and their nose--incredibly, students have had the same VC even before and after the catastrophic loss of one eye!

For some, they can make a lot of good cuts if the VC is in place, with less than ideal mechanics. It can put me off a bit myself if I forget and go back to under the chin--most people have neither pure binocular (chin) nor pure monocular (just beneath the eye) vision/VC.

I think of pool like baseball, my sighting is with one eye closer to the target, though I regard the target with both of my eyes at once.

My dominant eye position has never changed. I'm left-eye dominant.

I'm talking about someone who really understands the working of the visual cortex and perception. For instance, while my dominant eye is the same, my perception about what "looks right" if I just get down on the shot has changed, probably due to rote practice..

 

[bbb]

First off, I think there are two kinds of "looks straight." One is where I was many years ago where I put the cue wherever it felt natural and everything looked to be in alignment, but wasn't. The cue was angled a bit and then as I took the cue back I corrected the angle before going forward again. I think that could lead to inconsistencies. The second is where the alignment really is straight but you are not putting your head over the cue such that you can see that ob/cb/cue shaft straight alignment. Your head is off to one side of the cue so that you are not attempting to see straight down that line. Why would anyone do that (other than Stan)? For me it gave a better arm motion but more than that it allowed half-ball cuts to work both ways.

I'm left-handed. If I set up a center table half-ball cut shot and my head is in the "vision center" position the cut left generally works OK but the cut to the right misses fat. If I move my head to the right and try to keep the same straight alignment both shots get shifted left, and vice versa if I move the head to the left. I have found that shooting under the inside corner of the non-dominant eye allowed both cut shots to work when aiming at the half-ball. I recall that I spent a lot of time with this with lasers and hole reinforcers setting up shots to make sure I was not fooling myself.

If I could choose to line up at the VC and make everything be on I would do that. To the best of my knowledge that is not an option. I generally shoot with great accuracy as things are so I moved on to other things, time being short and all.

dan
first i want to say i know you make balls well as you did well on collins shot making drill/challenge.
but
you did not really answer my question

if you set up the cue/balls/pocket all in a straight line and get over the cue and position yourself so all looks straight
would head position have the cue under the inside corner of your non dominant eye?
.............................
i think you are saying above (i dont want to assume so please confirm if i am correct or wrong)
you first way you thought was your vision center because it looked "right" and natural but in reality you were off line
so now if you did the test to see where your head is when all look straight
where is the cue in relation to your head/eyes
just asking the same question a different way

 

[Dan White]

dan
first i want to say i know you make balls well as you did well on collins shot making drill/challenge.
but
you did not really answer my question

Sorry, I'll try to be more clear. I think it get tedious when someone writes a novel about their set up. I did hit some balls yesterday to be sure of what I'm saying.

if you set up the cue/balls/pocket all in a straight line and get over the cue and position yourself so all looks straight
would head position have the cue under the inside corner of your non dominant eye?

No. It is pretty much under the center of my nose. A BCA master instructor first found my misalignment (cue under corner of left eye) in 1997. I wish he had told me when the cue was straight and then told me to move my head until it looked straight. Vision center. Maybe that would have solved some problems a long time ago, maybe not. The thing is, this new head position would not have felt natural so the instruction would have had to tell me that, too.

.............................
i think you are saying above (i dont want to assume so please confirm if i am correct or wrong)
you first way you thought was your vision center because it looked "right" and natural but in reality you were off line

Yes

so now if you did the test to see where your head is when all look straight
where is the cue in relation to your head/eyes
just asking the same question a different way

Directly under my nose, or close to equal between eyes. In reference to the BCA instructor above, had he moved my head maybe this is where I would have ended up. OR, maybe I only needed to straighten out the cue and keep my head where it was and maybe that would start to look straight. That's why I say we need a real vision/perception expert.

 

[bbb]

Sorry, I'll try to be more clear. I think it get tedious when someone writes a novel about their set up. I did hit some balls yesterday to be sure of what I'm saying.


No. It is pretty much under the center of my nose. A BCA master instructor first found my misalignment (cue under corner of left eye) in 1997. I wish he had told me when the cue was straight and then told me to move my head until it looked straight. Vision center. Maybe that would have solved some problems a long time ago, maybe not. The thing is, this new head position would not have felt natural so the instruction would have had to tell me that, too.


Yes

Directly under my nose, or close to equal between eyes. In reference to the BCA instructor above, had he moved my head maybe this is where I would have ended up. OR, maybe I only needed to straighten out the cue and keep my head where it was and maybe that would start to look straight. That's why I say we need a real vision/perception expert.

Sorry, I'll try to be more clear. I think it get tedious when someone writes a novel about their set up. I did hit some balls yesterday to be sure of what I'm saying.


No. It is pretty much under the center of my nose. A BCA master instructor first found my misalignment (cue under corner of left eye) in 1997. I wish he had told me when the cue was straight and then told me to move my head until it looked straight. Vision center. Maybe that would have solved some problems a long time ago, maybe not. The thing is, this new head position would not have felt natural so the instruction would have had to tell me that, too.


Yes

Directly under my nose, or close to equal between eyes. In reference to the BCA instructor above, had he moved my head maybe this is where I would have ended up. OR, maybe I only needed to straighten out the cue and keep my head where it was and maybe that would start to look straight. That's why I say we need a real vision/perception expert.

so what you are saying (again correct me if i am wrong)
with the cue "Directly under my nose, or close to equal between eyes."
thats where all looks straight.
if thats correct than thats your vision center.

 

[bbb]

this book is a very interesting read
as he promotes a center cue stick as the best place for your head
regardless of your dominant eye!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Answer To A Pool Player's Prayers

CueSight offers pool cues, pool table felt, billiard supplies and unique custom accessories at discount prices.

www.cuesight.com

 

[Dan White]

so what you are saying (again correct me if i am wrong)
with the cue "Directly under my nose, or close to equal between eyes."
thats where all looks straight.
if thats correct than thats your vision center.

Yes, that's the definition of vision center. My point is what good is VC if it is not the head location that lets you play your best? Bob's comment is that for beginners simpler is better and VC is a good place to start. Some in this forum seem to act like VC is the be all and end all. I never thought the idea was 100% fleshed out because of my own experience and also from reading books like Mark Wilson's. Best I can tell the idea came from Dr. Dave. Maybe his website says whether he came up with it or what.

 

[bbb]

so what you are saying (again correct me if i am wrong)
with the cue "Directly under my nose, or close to equal between eyes."
thats where all looks straight.
if thats correct than thats your vision center.

based on your answer dan
either your head position is your true vision center for you
or you learned to adjust to the images coming from a centered cue stick as Richard Kranicki's book describes
jmho
icbw

 

[bbb]

Yes, that's the definition of vision center. My point is what good is VC if it is not the head location that lets you play your best? Bob's comment is that for beginners simpler is better and VC is a good place to start. Some in this forum seem to act like VC is the be all and end all. I never thought the idea was 100% fleshed out because of my own experience and also from reading books like Mark Wilson's. Best I can tell the idea came from Dr. Dave. Maybe his website says whether he came up with it or what.

dan
once again
when the cue is under your nose
does all look straight??
yes/no

 

[Dan White]

this book is a very interesting read
as he promotes a center cue stick as the best place for your head
regardless of your dominant eye!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Answer To A Pool Player's Prayers

CueSight offers pool cues, pool table felt, billiard supplies and unique custom accessories at discount prices.

www.cuesight.com

View attachment 751209

That's what Mark Wilson says. I decided to go with the location where left and right half-ball hits went in when they looked "on." It's interesting because I don't line the shaft up with the shot. I get down on the shot with the cue aligned to what I know is straight, based on work with the laser and just feeling the right position. Then while doing this and getting down on the shot I just look for my aim point and shoot. Seems to give me a solid hit.

 

[bbb]

That's what Mark Wilson says. I decided to go with the location where left and right half-ball hits went in when they looked "on." It's interesting because I don't line the shaft up with the shot. I get down on the shot with the cue aligned to what I know is straight, based on work with the laser and just feeling the right position. Then while doing this and getting down on the shot I just look for my aim point and shoot. Seems to give me a solid hit.

is there a reason you dont answer my question directly?