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Double Tapping threads on a shaft....
- Thread starter pooln8r
- Start date
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The only one I have tapped with an extra thread worked perfect, it was a predator shaft with Unilock pin. A 5/16 14 tap will slide right through the unilock thread and tap the brass with real good threads at the point where the smooth no thread pin registers. This could be 5/16 18 also I'm sure and the shaft fits a Schon and the predator butt very well and very tight.--Leonard
And from your experience about how long will that take?
My shaft is going into its second year now and is tight with either pin.
Perhaps it is an abnormality and will soon fail now that I have been informed it is such a bad idea.
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Just an observation.
To start, no offense Willee. I love your posts and don't want you to stop.
I, personally, found this response funny (as well as informative), but I think this is how some of the threads start downhill. Hopefully, KJ will not take the wording of this post as a challange and start one of the flame wars, but some people would.
Just my opinion, but I think an alternate opinion/experience can be stated without "poking the bear":grin:
To start, no offense Willee. I love your posts and don't want you to stop.
I, personally, found this response funny (as well as informative), but I think this is how some of the threads start downhill. Hopefully, KJ will not take the wording of this post as a challange and start one of the flame wars, but some people would.
Just my opinion, but I think an alternate opinion/experience can be stated without "poking the bear":grin:
Oh come on Bill ... it is fun to poke the bear once in a while ... if you can out run it ... :grin:
No offense taken.
you know,
Ive always wanted to do things differently and make them work and be good at it.... but for some of you here saying that what I did doesn't mean it's a good Idea.... I have to say a few words to respond to people saying that what I do is not a good idea or the things I do aren't sound...for there have been a few to pm me called me and emailed me to this fact of multi threading.
First.....
I have my way of doing things that you can't understand till you see it....
Second ........
responding to the shaft I made for my customer....Anthony.
is this ...The shaft itself has adapters from one to another.
If you can't understand this ...I guess you'll have to buy one from me to see it..
third........
I wouldn't expect any praise from people on here that are cue makers as it stands...... you are my competitors.... I know this and can say this because I had a few people who wanted to buy from me here but then withdrew cause they said another cue maker said my cues just wouldn't hold up structurally.
I hold an engineering degree and for someone like any cue maker to tell me or especially my customers or potential customers that it wont hold .... is slanderous .... If I find out who's been saying things like this to hurt my brand of cue without evidence of their accusations and making me and or my business (A & P properties LLC.) loose customers ... I will find you and sue you. just like my multiple thread shaft adapter concept. for people on here to think it might not work or say it's not a good idea.....Have you seen one? have you tried one? if not I would keep damaging words to yourself.
I never made a bad comment about anyones work on here because I know it is what feeds there families. it's your business.
I would ask you to do the same......
it's called respecting each others work or concept... don't hate because you don't agree... sometimes it might be because you didn't come up with the idea first...
Can we not all just get along and respect each others work?
I am sorry for anyone to have to read some of what I have said...
It's just that I have been doing what I do not knowing that there are people out there challenging my work without evidence of what "their" opinions are about my cues....and mind you they have probably never held my cue before.
Thats all.
Ive always wanted to do things differently and make them work and be good at it.... but for some of you here saying that what I did doesn't mean it's a good Idea.... I have to say a few words to respond to people saying that what I do is not a good idea or the things I do aren't sound...for there have been a few to pm me called me and emailed me to this fact of multi threading.
First.....
I have my way of doing things that you can't understand till you see it....
Second ........
responding to the shaft I made for my customer....Anthony.
is this ...The shaft itself has adapters from one to another.
If you can't understand this ...I guess you'll have to buy one from me to see it..
third........
I wouldn't expect any praise from people on here that are cue makers as it stands...... you are my competitors.... I know this and can say this because I had a few people who wanted to buy from me here but then withdrew cause they said another cue maker said my cues just wouldn't hold up structurally.
I hold an engineering degree and for someone like any cue maker to tell me or especially my customers or potential customers that it wont hold .... is slanderous .... If I find out who's been saying things like this to hurt my brand of cue without evidence of their accusations and making me and or my business (A & P properties LLC.) loose customers ... I will find you and sue you. just like my multiple thread shaft adapter concept. for people on here to think it might not work or say it's not a good idea.....Have you seen one? have you tried one? if not I would keep damaging words to yourself.
I never made a bad comment about anyones work on here because I know it is what feeds there families. it's your business.
I would ask you to do the same......
it's called respecting each others work or concept... don't hate because you don't agree... sometimes it might be because you didn't come up with the idea first...
Can we not all just get along and respect each others work?
I am sorry for anyone to have to read some of what I have said...
It's just that I have been doing what I do not knowing that there are people out there challenging my work without evidence of what "their" opinions are about my cues....and mind you they have probably never held my cue before.
Thats all.
Bill,
Very thoughtful post and I appreciate your concern. I take no offense from Willee and certainly have no intention of 'crossing swords' with him.
As I stated:
"At the end of the day, it's your cue and you can do whatever you want with it."
Peace out
I believe you man....don't you hate it when people say something about what you do when they have never seen your described job or work or experiment..
I don't see anywhere in this thread where someone specifically calls out your idea or has anything negative to say about it. The cue makers that have responded are speaking in general terms and using many years of experience to give advice. Nothing is concrete. Willie has one that works. You have one that works. poolcuemaster has one that works. Great! The point we are trying to make is that there are drawbacks. I believe the negatives outweigh the positives.
Ryan, I think the problem is that the negatives are not explained fully or supported by experience.
Your statement says it has drawbacks but you dont say what they are.
Nor has anyone else that has said they did not think it was a good idea.
Speaking from experience three people have stated they have done it and have experienced no failures ... yet.
That is real experience.
The other side of the fence is only giving opinions biased on ... opinion.
I can see why someone would think double tapping a hole would weaken the threads ... I am sure it does ... but is it weakened enough to actually fail?
Is it still strong enough to last the life of the shaft?
From experience I can say the threads have ... so far ... proven to be strong enough to hold up to normal use as a pool cue.
If it effects the feedback or feel of the cue I do not know.
I can not feel any difference.
But then, I dont have enough experience with just one shaft to really say.
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I have seen inserts that has been double tapped. At times, the pin tried to thread into the wrong one. I had to line the correct pin with the correct thread groove to get it to screw together. Now, give that to your average banger and see what happens. Anytime the pin goes into the wrong groove, it will wear. How much? Hard to say.
As stated by Joey, there will be less contact between the pin and the shaft threads. Does that matter? How much? I want the most secure connection between the two. Double tapping reduces the contact.
Trying to perform the modification on an existing finished shaft also causes concern. You put that shaft at risk for a procedure that may or may not work.
I'll say this, at risk of being an a-hole, but I see more cues in a month than most people see in a year. I think my experiences should not be taken lightly just because 3 people speak up without failure.
Even your own post, Willie, says it hasn't failed...yet. Give that cue to a league player for a year and then take a look at it. I too could make one and use it, myself, without failure....
Piercyexclusive has a method that may work well but it is soooo complicated that simpltons like me could never understand it out unless he showed us. That doesn't seem like proof to me... Get the patent number and show the world. I'll wait and hope it works out well.
Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should.
Ryan, you have been around for a long time and are well respected.
You could not be an A-hole no matter how hard you tried ... it just isnt your nature.
I do agree with you that double threading should not be a common practice. Agreed ... just because it can be dont mean it should.
I have done two shafts now ... 3/8 x 10 and Radial and do not see the problem you describe. I try ... best as I can to get the second thread started at the point of the first thread.
It always seems to screw together without trying to follow the wrong thread.
I made a 14mm shaft last week as a break shaft but have discovered that I like it as a playing shaft as well. Go figure ... I have always preferred 12.75 mm tips.
It was tapped for 3/8 x 10 but I wanted to use it on my Radial butt.
Could have plugged and tapped but since we are having this thread I decided to just tap it today for the radial pin
I can drill and plug it anytime and most likely will do so at a later date if I really like the shaft.
As for my quote about the threads not failing ... yet ... if there is one thing life has taught me ... it is to never say never.
Just about as soon as you do ... it happens! ... :sorry: ...
Yes ... it sure looks funky.
Not neat and purty at all.
Ever see a photo of a railroad switchyard?
Just a couple questions/observations. First when that thread was tapped to the radial were the threads sealed like was advised with thin glue to hold the threads keeping the second live cut cleaner?(Please don't take as a criticism if it wasn't done, I'm not intending it that way just wondering if that's what they look like with the thin glue sealant already in place before they were cut)
Second how would a cue cross thread when each thread has a different connection method like radial(hold by the minor diameter of the thread) verses 3/8 x 10(more traditional style utilizing the outer diameter). I can definitely see how doing this with 3/8 x10 and 3/8 x 12 or 11 could definitely cross thread but radial and another 3/8 x whatever seems to not have a compatibility issue from what I'm thinking. If I'm missing what other people are seeing please explain. I am always looking to learn new things, I really appreciate all your time and hard earned knowledge.
First, I never seal my Radial or 3/8-10 threads. Both come out very clean with a very snug fit. IMO, most people seal their threads to (a) tighten up loose threads or (b) clean up ragged tapped threads - rather than to "seal" them from atmospheric influences. But to answer your question: no, the radial threads were not sealed. I don't think it would have helped much anyway. Keep in mind this is a close up shot that shows every detail. Radial tapped holes typically yield the cleanest thread possible. Cutting into any thread form in maple will probably create some tearout/fracturing due to the nature of the wood itself. Imagine how much worse it would have been had a tap been used instead of live tooling!
Second, all internal threads have a sharp, deep major diameter. When starting to screw on a shaft, the pin will pick up one of the two starting grooves NOW. You have a 50-50 chance that it will be the wrong one. If you're upset, impatient or impaired, you can do some damage real quick. If you're careful, you can probably get away with it if you stop tightening as soon as you feel some unnatural resistance.
FWIW, std 60 degree threads locate on the pitch diameter - not the major (outer) diameter. I prefer the modified 3/8-10 thread that locates on the minor diameter much like the radial.
No criticism inferred. Thoughtful questions are always welcome.
Thanks for the earlier visual of this idea and for the above explanation. I get it now completely and think this is a good idea for anyone that treats their equipment properly and screws their cue together with care. I'm one of the people that does the half turn in the opposite direction to seat the shaft first as I know what can happen to a cues threads if you just jam the threads together then turn them hard. I didn't do it but have watched a few people over the years screw up some really nice shafts on really nice cues. Maybe double tapped shafts that get into the hands of less careful people need a disclaimer...Like if you have had one too many, have anger management issues or get excited easily and take it out on your cue to use a single threaded shaft or better just put the cue down and walk away :thumbup::banghead:
There is a third reason ...
The thin CA will penetrate the wood and harden it reducing wear.
This is just an opinion as it is something I have always done on wood threads (even ferrule tenons).
In fact I cant even say there is any wear problem with untreated threads.
I just started doing it thinking it would make the joint threads stay tight longer.