Draw induced throw?

California Fats

California Fats

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I played an APA match this last Thursday and got absolutely slaughtered. I had several shots come up where I needed to draw on a cut shot and I was completely off. I've noticed that this is a major weak point in my game. I won't be able to get to a table until next week, so I'm hoping someone can tell me which way a draw shot throws the cue ball during a cut.

200847141532_draw-shot.gif


In this image, for example: Would applying draw throw the cue ball towards the left of the pocket, or towards the right?

I am having a really hard time visualizing this when at the table. I over think it and often miss.

Thanks in advance.
 
For the shot diagramed, whether you use follow, center, or draw, the object ball will be thrown to the shooters right. That's call Contact Induced Throw, CIT. As opposed to Spin Induced Throw, SIT. SIT occurs when the CB is spinning to the left or right at contact.

If the CB is sliding at contact, throw is maximized. If there is either forward or reverse spin on the CB, throw is reduced. Check out Dr. Dave's website, he has graphs showing under what conditions throw is maximized and minimized. For example, cut angle affects the amount of throw.
 
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If you are hitting dead center then maybe is a throw from friction of the cut itself after contact. If you are cutting to your left then it will be to your right. Distance and speed of shot plays a part too. The harder the shot the straighter it it will be along the line.

Now if you are not hitting dead center on your stroke then you may be accidentally adding English. Most of the time this is the case. May you need to adjust your aim. Who knows just play around with t hat same shot until you get it.
 
jeffj2h said:
For the shot diagramed, whether you use follow, center, or draw, the ball will be thrown to the shooters right. That's call Contact Induced Throw, CIT. As opposed to Spin Induced Throw, SIT.

If the CB is sliding at contact, throw is maximized. If there is either forward or reverse spin on the CB, throw is reduced. Check out Dr. Dave's website, he has graphs showing under what conditions throw is maximized and minimized. For example, cut angle affects the about of throw.
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So if I am understanding you correctly, the only thing that will throw the ball to the shooters left would be right hand spin? All other English would result in being throw to the shooters right?
 
icucybe said:
If you are hitting dead center then maybe is a throw from friction of the cut itself after contact. If you are cutting to your left then it will be to your right. Distance and speed of shot plays a part too. The harder the shot the straighter it it will be along the line.

Now if you are not hitting dead center on your stroke then you may be accidentally adding English. Most of the time this is the case. May you need to adjust your aim. Who knows just play around with t hat same shot until you get it.
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These are shots that I can make almost 100 percent of the time, but I am missing when applying back spin. Unless I am wrong, I assumed it was because there was some level of throw being applied here.
 
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California Fats said:
So if I am understanding you correctly, the only thing that will throw the ball to the shooters left would be right hand spin? All other English would result in being throw to the shooters right?
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Correct.

You can have CIT and SIT both occurring on the same shot. Sometimes they add, sometimes they subtract. For example, in the diagram CIT is throwing the OB to the shooters right. If you add a little right spin to the CB (perhaps just 1/2 tip), the resulting SIT might cancel the CIT. Too much right spin would result in the OB being thrown to the shooters left. It would be more accurate to phrase this is whether the OB is thrown to the left or right of the line created by drawing a line through the centers of the two balls at contact.

As another poster said, speed affects throw also. When playing with dirty balls in a bar, some people shoot a little harder to reduce throw. An alternative is to use a little (1/2 tip perhaps) outside english. Another alternative is to adjust your aim.
 
jeffj2h said:
Correct.

You can have CIT and SIT both occurring on the same shot. Sometimes they add, sometimes they subtract. For example, in the diagram CIT is throwing the OB to the shooters right. If you add a little right spin to the CB (perhaps just 1/2 tip), the resulting SIT might cancel the CIT. Too much right spin would result in the OB being thrown to the shooters left. It would be more accurate to phrase this is whether the OB is thrown to the left or right of the line created by drawing a line through the centers of the two balls at contact.

As another poster said, speed affects throw also. When playing with dirty balls in a bar, some people shoot a little harder to reduce throw. An alternative is to use a little (1/2 tip perhaps) outside english. Another alternative is to adjust your aim.
Click to expand...

I can't wait to get back to a table to try this out and figure out what the heck i'm doing wrong. My brain has no trouble compensating for SIT since cut shots are no problem when hitting center ball. I'm just extremely surprised to find out that there is absolutely no difference in where the cue ball gets thrown to when draw is applied in the exact same cut shot.
 
California Fats said:
I'm just extremely surprised to find out that there is absolutely no difference in where the cue ball gets thrown to when draw is applied in the exact same cut shot.
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Actually that's not what I said. If draw is on the CB at contact, the throw is less compared to if the CB were sliding at contact. Follow has the same affect; if the CB is rolling forward at contact the throw will be less compared if the CB were sliding at contact.
 
Unless the balls are very dirty you should be able to make that shot with draw dead center on cue ball and make it easy.
 
I've always overcut my aim when using draw.... unless I drag(slide) the cue ball.


My aim point is always the inside corner of the pocket.
 
California Fats said:
I played an APA match this last Thursday and got absolutely slaughtered. I had several shots come up where I needed to draw on a cut shot and I was completely off. I've noticed that this is a major weak point in my game. I won't be able to get to a table until next week, so I'm hoping someone can tell me which way a draw shot throws the cue ball during a cut.
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I assume you mean "throws the object ball" and not "throws the cue ball."

Cut-induced throw (CIT) is actually fairly small with typical draw shots. For more info, see throw draw effects. if there is no sidespin, the direction of CIT would be the same as any other cut shot. The OB throws in the direction the CB heads after the hit.

Now, if you are applying sidespin with the bottom spin (intentionally or not), the object ball can be thrown in either direction (due to spin-induced throw or SIT). For more info, see CIT and SIT.

If you are elevating (for example to achieve quick draw), it is possible that the CB is hopping into the OB, in which case you will tend to over cut the ball. For more info, see the jump/hop over-cut effect resource page.

If you want general advice on draw shot technique, lots of good info is available on the draw shot technique advice and drills resource page.

I hope that helps,
Dave
 
Whenever I have cut shots like the one you mentioned in your original post I use gearing English to straighten out the cut and keep it on it's intended path.

As others have said, from your picture - you're getting CIT (collision induced throw), and if you don't have a solid stroke may be getting SIT (spin induced throw) as well. Draw or follow will not affect the throw of the OB but the sidespin and cut angle will.

So, I always use a touch of outside English on cut shots which is "gearing English" plus the follow or draw I need as well.
 
Zphix said:
Whenever I have cut shots like the one you mentioned in your original post I use gearing English to straighten out the cut and keep it on it's intended path.
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FYI, for those interested, details on how to do this can be found here:

gearing outside english resource page


Zphix said:
Draw or follow will not affect the throw of the OB
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Actually, top and bottom spin reduce the amount of throw (with everything else, especially shot speed, being the same in the comparison). For more info, see:

draw/follow throw effects

Regards,
Dave
 
When I draw a ball on a cut shot I always aim for a thicker hit and it works out fine for me. I find it hard to believe there is no throw created from a draw shot.
 
Okay, I know I'll get slammed for this. But, here's the thing: If your stroke is straight and consistent this shot, and a whole passel of variations, can be made easily and repeatedly once you get a feel for the shot. Gearing, squirt, deflection, throw, etc., etc., all matter, of course, but are a minor subset to the "feel."

But, you've got to have your stroke under control, first. Then, the "feel" will be there for you.

For emphasis: A straight and consistent stroke is mandatory. Any doubts? Check with Shane.

Shoot safe.

John
 
The OP's perception of the situation is that the level of throw being applied to the shot is the cause of many missed opportunities. More often than not, once our aiming/sighting aspects are in place, we tend to conclude that any miss must have an alternative reason.

I would suggest that the issue may not be in the degree of throw or even in the OP's sighting routine.

Many players fail to get low enough on the cue ball when applying draw and as such they have to hit the cue ball much firmer to get the level of draw they desire.

In order to generate additional speed, they push through the stroke and in doing so, throw the stroke out of alignment. As such they miss the shot.

I would suggest that the OP re-evaluate the level of speed he is applying to his draw shot in those situations where he seems to be missing. Resolving this problem may be as simple as getting lower on the cue ball and using a more relaxed and controlled stroke.
 
It could also be that you're not hitting dead center when shooting with bottom, which is a common problem. Try putting the cue ball on the foot spot and shooting straight down table with hard draw and see if the cue ball comes straight back to your tip.
 
Most likely the OP is not hitting the CB and or OB where he wants/thinks he is. A lot of early players to the game are paying more attention to drawing the CB than giving the shot a nice smooth stroke. I would practice draw shots until you have a nice level and smooth stroke, with a straight stroke and follow through. Johnnyt
 
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