Dress Code for Gold Crown Billiards, Erie, PA

[CocoboloCowboy]

Business Owners have the Right to ESTABLISH A DRESS CODE for those who are their GUESTS.


GUESTS or PARTONS have the to COMPLY, or choose to go else where to spend their money.

 

[Paul Schofield]

I am posting this again because the story goes directly to the heart of pool's biggest problem. It addresses the impact of a dress and conduct code from an entirely different angle, one yet to be discussed in this thread. The pool playing community has little awareness of a proprietors challenges. They only know that they have to turn their hat around.

I believe that the key word here is Unsuspecting.




The key words here are: Pull a fast one.

Paul, did it make you feel proud laying a class A scam on your land lord?
How would you like it if someone did that to you, maybe feel a little betrayed.

There ya have it folks. Paul keeps the shady people out of his room but wasn't above being more than a tad dishonest to get what he wanted. And he will have you believe that his dress code is for the betterment of pool nation wide. Twas just part of his continuing scam. Nothing more, nothing less.

I believe these two statements speak volumes re credability and honesty. Paul, send me your address
and I will send you a hoodie. If you have trouble walking in the morning, its maybe because you just shot yourself in both feet.
Have a great weekend, Shady Schofield. I know guys like you that would sell their best friend out in a heart beat if they felt it was in their best interest to do so.

Skip the Hoodie, I'll send you a free membership in the APB. You'll fit in real nice.

I am very glad you brought this up. It dovetails perfectly into this conversation. I should have been clearer but it is better this way. Here it goes…

The desperate landlord was a businessman who just built an addition to his plaza. It was October and if he did not get a tenant in there right away, the unit would sit empty until spring.

The unsuspecting had nothing to do with zoning. He could have cared less. In 1978, zoning was an occupant’s issue, not a landlord’s. Today it is different. I was the only one that could get hurt by the zoning issue. I did pull a fast one and I am proud of it to this day. I had been turned down by more than 20 property owners during a 3 year period to open a billiard room. I knew what I was up against. Mind you, this is the late 70’s. Plaza owners want no part of a pool room. The clientele brings trouble. Their attire and conduct is intimidating, and discourages other kinds of trade within a plaza. Women getting their hair done, teeth worked on, or shopping for clothes are very uncomfortable having to park and walk in front of a pool room. This in turn chases out good tenants and discourages prospective tenants from leasing. Today, many chains and franchises have clauses written right in their leases where the Landlord may not lease to a billiard room.

I watched for months as this addition went up with full intentions of trying to lease space. I waited for my chance. Timing was everything. My plan was simple: Put a suit on, make a good impression, negotiate for 1 day, and sign a lease as fast as I could. If this landlord vetted my kind of business by talking to other property owners, I would be done. It worked. We signed a lease within days. He really should have done his homework and he should not have leased to a poolroom. It is far too risky. At any rate, to everyone’s surprise (but me), hindsight showed that he did the right thing.

One week after the lease was signed, I was working on the interior when he approached me with a long face. He proceeded to tell me what he had found out and all the horror stories of every poolroom that ever existed in my home town over the last 50 years. He could find no good news and asked me what I was going to do to deal with all the problems associated with my kind of business. I had no credibility. I was 24 years old with no business history. I told him that I was going to operate with a strict conduct and dress code. Gold Crown Billiards was going to be an asset to his plaza and my business and clientele would never be a problem for anyone. I kept my promise.

 

[Icon of Sin]

So...the post just made me wonder...does this establishment employ bouncers and/or real security staff to enforce the policies?

Yes. To the point of asking the person. They should not lay there on hands on the person until it becomes a problem.

Example...

Johnny Bangaball is in the poolhall shooting with his homies. The owner/bouncer walks over to Johnny and asks him to correct the position of his hat. Johnny does not, the owner/bouncer should ask again and tell him he has to leave, Johnny still does not. The owner/bouncer then tells Johnny he has to leave, Johnny still does not... at this point Johnny is now trespassing and the owner and staff have the right to physically throw Johnny out.

The point of my previous post is, it is super condescending to have someone walk over to you and correct how you are dressed. At that point the owner is then in the wrong because he is laying his hands on another person without them consenting to it of course.

Frankly, the sideways baseball cap and other things shouldnt be a problem with a dress code. That's how things are now. Get with the times. If I wanted to play pool and walked into an establishment like that I would probably leave and go look for a poolhall.

 

[cardiac kid]

Frankly, the sideways baseball cap and other things shouldnt be a problem with a dress code. That's how things are now. Get with the times. If I wanted to play pool and walked into an establishment like that I would probably leave and go look for a poolhall.

Get with the times? How about personal pride? How about respecting the wishes of others? Much easier today to ask others to accept you as you choose to be. If you don't like the rules, don't go to Gold Crown Billiards. For that matter, don't go anywhere where you perceive yourself to be unwelcome. Seems simple to me. As far as finding a "poolhall". Good luck. They are the places we AZ'ers read about closing everyday.

Lyn

 

[sfleinen]

Get with the times? How about personal pride? How about respecting the wishes of others? Much easier today to ask others to accept you as you choose to be. If you don't like the rules, don't go to Gold Crown Billiards. For that matter, don't go anywhere where you perceive yourself to be unwelcome. Seems simple to me. As far as finding a "poolhall". Good luck. They are the places we AZ'ers read about closing everyday.

Lyn

That is very true, Lyn. I used to be the league coordinator and administrator for the now-defunct Danbury, CT branch of Boston Billiards. Boston Billiards had a dress code, and specifically targeted against things like bandannas, hats, sandals, shorts, saggin'-ass pants, etc. -- and anything that is obviously construed as "wearing one's colors" (i.e. gang colors).

They always had a dress code that disallowed sandals, shorts, etc., but one night, one of the nastiest and most destructive fights the place ever witnessed came about because of "colors." Apparently, two rival gangs entered the establishment, and wore clothing that complied the dress code, but also had bandannas and hats sporting their colors, as well as the usual/expected saggin'-ass pants. The place was unfortunately hopping that night -- it was a Wednesday, and was ladies night at Boston Billiards. Well, someone donned his hat, and turned it sideways as a signal. The fight was on! The next thing we knew, we heard the smashing of house cues against heads and the general sounds of a melee in progress. Boston Billiards had some pretty big bouncers -- I mean, really big boys -- but they had their hands full trying to break this thing up. Next thing was the breakage of the house cues and use as stabbing implements. Three people ended up with serious stab wounds and had to be rushed to nearby Danbury hospital. Several others were slashed pretty badly when they were trying to get out of the way of several of the gang members going after each other, wildly swinging the broken house cues at their opponents, but not caring if they hit innocent bystanders.

Needless to say, everything changed at Boston Billiards. The dress code got locked-down tight, and people were often turned away at the door if they didn't meet minimum standards. People got thrown out (and physically, if need be) if they refused with cordial requests to fix any clothing that didn't conform to code. We never had a fight like that ever again.

-Sean

 

[Icon of Sin]

If you don't like the rules, don't go to Gold Crown Billiards. For that matter, don't go anywhere where you perceive yourself to be unwelcome....

Lyn

I thought that is what I just said.

 

[cardiac kid]

I thought that is what I just said.

Re-read your post twice. Keep missing the part you are telling me about. My understanding of your post is "how not to PHYSICALLY impose your rules on another individual(s). Happen to agree with most of your statements regarding enforcing the rules. Why would any establishment post rules they intend not to enforce?

Lyn

 

[Chopdoc]

Yes. To the point of asking the person. They should not lay there on hands on the person until it becomes a problem.

Indeed. But there would seem to be a difference in how it is perceived depending on who is asking.

In other words....big and burly guy versus petite and cute waitress.

See what I mean?

 

[Chopdoc]

Business Owners have the Right to ESTABLISH A DRESS CODE for those who are their GUESTS.


GUESTS or PARTONS have the to COMPLY, or choose to go else where to spend their money.

Of course he has the right....of course it isn't unlimited...but on the face of it as a simple statement he has the right.

I don't think that is what is being debated.

.

 

[Jodacus]

You are surprised by my position?

My publicly stated position was and is that I respect his rules.

Why does that surprise you?

If you are surprised by my questioning him regarding my son, well, I am surprised anybody would be surprised by that.

What I find disconcerting is what seems to be an inconsistent application of the rules.

So, although I respect his rules in his establishment I feel perfectly comfortable questioning them here. I personally think he holds an indefensible position on the matter on all levels.

As for Docs and bending rules, I don't personally believe such things are acceptable if I am reading your meaning correctly.

.[/QUOTE

I apologize for missing the part where you stated that you respect his rules. That is what surprised me and I was wrong.

As far as the inconsistent application of rules it happens all the time. Cops give a speeding ticket to one person but only a warning to someone else, like a doctor for example. A pretty young girl is allowed into a bar and a grizzly old man is not. What's fair?

I have said it before and here it is again. No one was born with "guaranteed" stamped on their butt. A perfectly fair world is an ideal that will never be attained because the definition of fair is different for everyone and varies even more with circumstance.

More importantly I do not think anyone owns the absolute correct definition of the term "fair".

I will not judge you or the way you run your life.

I will respect Paul and the way he chooses to run his life, including his business.

As long as Paul's rules don't infringe on my rights I support his freedom to make them. I have no right to enter his establishment.

I also support your right to disagree with his rules. 100%. You can say they are indefensible but Paul's rules do not need defending since they are not vulnerable. They are his and his alone. He will reap the consequences of them.

Sincerely. All the best to you and yours,

 

[Chopdoc]

don't go anywhere where you perceive yourself to be unwelcome....

It is this statement that provides an example of some of what I take issue with.

Obviously it would seem to have practical application. Men shouldn't feel free to walk into the ladies room, they should perceive to be unwelcome there.

But I am not confident that is how the statement is being applied. It would seem to be very broad sweeping.

Perhaps somebody would be interested in clarifying the notion of that statement?

.

 

[tony frank]

It's time to shut down.

Paul,
You have taken all the risks and spent your life attempting to create and operate a sound, professional business. Some of the posters herein are exceptionally crude and have no knowledge about the real world or the effort required to live in it successfully. Although we are not residents who can frequent your establishment easily, we do so as often as we can; not only to enjoy your billiard parlor but also to enjoy the ambiance and fine food / professional associates.We have no problem with entering with all ages of our family and feel secure that the thugs will not overbear on our visit. The hoody thing, although debated ad nauseum means only one thing - to hide one's identity. Not what the world needs.
I sincerely suggest you delete this forum, inasmuch as all reasonable humans have enjoyed it and many illiterates are now defacing it.

Frenchy

 

[Paul Schofield]

Paul,
You have taken all the risks and spent your life attempting to create and operate a sound, professional business. Some of the posters herein are exceptionally crude and have no knowledge about the real world or the effort required to live in it successfully. Although we are not residents who can frequent your establishment easily, we do so as often as we can; not only to enjoy your billiard parlor but also to enjoy the ambiance and fine food / professional associates.We have no problem with entering with all ages of our family and feel secure that the thugs will not overbear on our visit. The hoody thing, although debated ad nauseum means only one thing - to hide one's identity. Not what the world needs.
I sincerely suggest you delete this forum, inasmuch as all reasonable humans have enjoyed it and many illiterates are now defacing it.

Frenchy

Hi Frenchy. Thanks for the compliments. To be very frank, I am not troubled at all by what I read in some of these posts. This topic and open discussion should never die. It goes directly to the heart of pool's most challenging issue: IMAGE. We all know what that is and what it means.

These posters are terribly mistaken. These people think that a dress code is exclusionary. When in fact, these people's appearance is exclusionary. They just don't get it.

 

[cardiac kid]

It is this statement that provides an example of some of what I take issue with.......Obviously it would seem to have practical application. Men shouldn't feel free to walk into the ladies room, they should perceive to be unwelcome there........Perhaps somebody would be interested in clarifying the notion of that statement?

Doc,

Haven't been to Paul's business in way too many years. If my daily attire was that which Paul excludes and I was aware of his policies, why would I wish to go there? Wouldn't I perceive I would be unwelcome?

Wouldn't going to a close friends formal wedding in "biker leathers" be kind of the same thing? I'm sure some of our regulars would jump in at this point telling us they would do exactly those things just because they can and its their right to do it. "They know me and won't care" will be the answer. The perception is all wrong. Their friends will care. They just might not choose to say anything.

You are out looking for professional employment. You walk into a interview neither dressed for the occasion nor mentally prepared. Wouldn't you perceive you will not get the job? Some might immediately say they were excluded because of their race, ethnicity, gender or other cause. In reality they know the answer. Just easier to make excuses.

How you perceive your self image is another interesting area. Look at myself in the mirror and notice those few extra pounds and the extra skin under my chin. Don't see it any other time but then. Perceive I am at a reasonable weight for my size and age. I would be wrong!

Lyn

 

[billyjungle]

If you're able come to the tournament on April 28 and see for yourself what it's all about dress code,no-conflict rules,modified double elimination and easy money(alyays a few thou in the calcutta) How can you lose.:grin:

 

[cardiac kid]

If you're able come to the tournament on April 28 and see for yourself what it's all about dress code,no-conflict rules,modified double elimination and easy money(alyays a few thou in the calcutta) How can you lose.:grin:

Billy,

Wish I could. Added money event in Buffalo the same weekend. Sure would be nice if Paul and Mike would talk about dates. Seems two rooms ninety miles apart would not have conflicting events. Paul should reconsider his "No Conflict" rules .

Lyn

 

[Paul Schofield]

I removed the text in a post where I mentioned Trayvon Martin, hoodies, and swastikas. Fenwick and some others have taken exception to their mention. From certain posts and PMs, I can only gather that the comments were insensitive. If that is the case, then my point is lost. I don't want to do that. I will make my point in another way later.

 

[Paul Schofield]

This post will better illustrate the point without mentioning specific clothing items or sensitive political or societal events:

Attire can convey authority.
Attire can show ignorance.

Attire can show consideration.
Attire can project inconsideration.

Attire can show professionalism.
Attire can be interpreted as unprofessional.

Attire can show reverence.
Attire can show indifference.

Attire can show respect.
Certain attire shows disrespect.

Attire can save a life.
And yes, attire can get someone killed.

Attire has meaning. A person does not get to decide how the public interprets his visual presentation. No one should be surprised when they are treated how they are dressed.

 

[risky biz]

This post will better illustrate the point without mentioning specific clothing items or sensitive political or societal events:

Attire can convey authority.
Attire can show ignorance.

Attire can show consideration.
Attire can project inconsideration.

Attire can show professionalism.
Attire can be interpreted as unprofessional.

Attire can show reverence.
Attire can show indifference.

Attire can show respect.
Certain attire shows disrespect.

Attire can save a life.
And yes, attire can get someone killed.

Attire has meaning. A person does not get to decide how the public interprets his visual presentation. No one should be surprised when they are treated how they are dressed.

In the meantime just enjoy dressing everyone in your establishment the way you like them to dress but please- no more complaints about business being bad. That isn't very respectful of others.

 

[pletho]

This is very funny........

Think about this.......

When you were younger, what did you wear? did you conform to society? or did you wear whatever you wanted?

I think sometimes that people forget......... culture changes, styles change, fads change, etc...

I think a dress code can do good, it can also be too legalistic.......

Your rules seem to reflect "your liking" meaning they are based on your view point and your opinions as to what is and what is not acceptable in society.

Your rules on hats are very dumb. They reflect your fears. The rule on sweat pants is also dumb. The tank tops are dumb also, I noticed you did not rule out girls in tank tops, lol,

I think it might be a great idea to suggest that people where deodorant. Thats more practical.

As for leathers, what? And wallets on chains?

Work clothes, boots?

Seriously?