Elbow Drop:Yes,no or maybe so

[Zims Rack]

Hi ZIm, Thanks for correcting me on the location of the stroke perfector as I knew it was under the elbow,however, for some reason I put under the armpit.
Furthermore I agree with you that those BSACA dvd's are amongst the very best out there in terms of production,presentation,quality and information.I don't disagree with what Tim is saying, I just see a lot more snooker players using his style than pool players.Like snooker players his pause and set are much more accentuated while in p-ool, those aspects seems to be much more abreviated.He advocates a much longer freeze than I'm seeing from most in pool.RJ

ps. I'm in the process of making a homemade stroke perfector.

Tim does teach a snooker style stance and approach. That's the way your body (most) naturally moves. He overexaggerates the S-P-F-F to make it more visible in the video.

Zim

 

[chefjeff]

(snip)

ps. I'm in the process of making a homemade stroke perfector.

Try this: Get some cotton rope, about 4 or 5 feet should do the trick. Make a lasso or noose big enough to go around your bicep. Screw a cup hook into your ceiling directly under where your elbow will be when stroking. With a very loose knot, tie the rope to the cup hook and stick your arm through the noose. Make your stance and position the noose near your elbow to hold your arm up where you want it when shooting (this takes some adjustment of the ceiling knot to get the correct hieght).

Now when you shoot the shot, the rope will prevent you from dropping your elbow, or if you hit hard with an elbow drop, the knot should slip so as not to hurt yourself.

It's a nice feedback/control thing that cost maybe 25 cents. I use it when my stroke is going whacky and I want it back, closer to normal.

P.S. I'm staying out of both camps.

Jeff Livingston

 

[fxskater]

What instructor are you using? I live near you and am looking for a good instructor. I talked to John Horsfall and Paul Pautier about instruction, but i heard of some guy named Cecil thats supposed to be a grumpy old man but a great instructor. I have heard of lots of pros going to him. Who are you seeing? Is he good? What does he base his instruction on? Is he more of a stance/setup guy that wants to build you HIS stroke, or is he more of a adapt and perfect what you have kinda guy? I'm looking for a good instructor anywhere in BC.

 

[fxskater]

Didn't you mean would have been a lot less elbow drop?

I have seen lots of local players back in the 60s, when there were no instructors, with absolutely beautiful strokes. How did this happen anybody?? It so happened that the majority of these players could really play straight pool, and they didn't have the English square stance. Have you ever seen anyone with a square stance who could run hundreds of balls? Allison is very mechanical and gets the job done, but I personally don't think that ANY of the players with a square stance can get that micro position. Why? They are too freakin mechanical and don't possess the fluidity.
WW

I don't really agree 100% with you here. Without offending anyone here, I asked a friend, and agreed with his answer, of why every filipino i see play pool, no matter if they are good or bad, generally has a smooth or very fluid cueing action. My friend atributed it to Left Brain/Right Brain thinking. Without going into it, i think your assumption that a square stance can't be fluid isnt exactly correct. I don't think your leg or body position affects the fluidity of your stroke neccessarily. It can hamper your cueing, but i think a Filipino with a square stance could likely be just as fluid or more fluid as a Westerner with a stance as you describe. The funny thing is you never see fluidity in a snooker stroke. What is your explaination for that? Snooker players need to make Micro shape as often as a straight pool player. But i guess the size of the table increases the Micro Area that you need to Play Micro Shape into.

 

[drivermaker]

Try this: Get some cotton rope, about 4 or 5 feet should do the trick. Make a lasso or noose big enough to go around your bicep. Screw a cup hook into your ceiling directly under where your elbow will be when stroking. With a very loose knot, tie the rope to the cup hook and stick your arm through the noose. Make your stance and position the noose near your elbow to hold your arm up where you want it when shooting (this takes some adjustment of the ceiling knot to get the correct hieght).

Jeff Livingston

Jeff...I think you should delete this post IMMEDIATELY! If DCP has a chance to read it, and especially if he's having a very bad night on the table, no telling what he might do with this "noose" idea.

 

[APA9]

Nice topic. Has the jihad started yet?

 

[fxskater]

Jeff...I think you should delete this post IMMEDIATELY! If DCP has a chance to read it, and especially if he's having a very bad night on the table, no telling what he might do with this "noose" idea.

For the safety of DCP please, pull this thread!!

 

[APA9]

My observation on this is that most of the "instructors" say not to drop the elbow, while most of the "players" do drop their elbows to some extent (some more than others). I don't think I can name 3 professionals that don't drop their elbow at all during the follow through.

 

[AceHigh]

I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out or not, but when you drop your elbow, you have more have a follow through. Having more of a follow through increases your ability to control the cueball.

My advice when it comes to your elbow. . . drop it like it's hot!

 

[Purdman]

Didn't you mean would have been a lot less elbow drop?

I have seen lots of local players back in the 60s, when there were no instructors, with absolutely beautiful strokes. How did this happen anybody?? It so happened that the majority of these players could really play straight pool, and they didn't have the English square stance. Have you ever seen anyone with a square stance who could run hundreds of balls? Allison is very mechanical and gets the job done, but I personally don't think that ANY of the players with a square stance can get that micro position. Why? They are too freakin mechanical and don't possess the fluidity.

Getting back to how did this happen. I think that they must have watched the best players and analyzed what they were doing, and most of them (and this is only my silly theory/guess?) did not have much of an elbow drop if any, except for the power shots.

I don't have the answer to your question because there are so many successful methods. But I can tell you that in order to practice not moving my head, the best and most reliable method is the RandyG method of freezing at the finish of your stroke. For me, in order to do this, the tip of my cue touches the cloth the majority of the time, which translates into less of an elbow drop. When I first played pool, I had a very large elbow drop and since having corrected this to an acceptable level, I have improved my game.

BTW, Scott Lee, a BCA qualified instructor (I think now), has a beautiful stroke with hardly any elbow drop. He can do power shots with no elbow drop. So it can be done. I can't do it that way and don't want to (too stubborn LOL) since some elbow drop is already ingrained too deeply into my game. Stay loose as a goose, Set-pause-finish-freeze (RandyG), and use the Stroke Trainer to build muscle memory. Whatever feels natural, if it is within acceptable methods, is what you should ultimately end up using. My last word of advice is to take a few months experimenting and then choose which method you like and stick with it. Test it under pressure and if it fails, go back to the drawing board (see instructor again, maybe try a new one although some will say stick to the same instructor, and take videos of yourself).

WW

I wouldn't be so quick to give randyg the credit for S P F F. I believe his business associate ( Leslie ) may have come up with that one. Droping your elbow after CB contact to keep your cue level isn't always such a bad thing.
Just the facts and MHO. Purdman

 

[Rod]

Another thing you can use instead of Stroke Perfector, is a stack of pennies. Have a friend place a stack, 4-5, of pennies on your elbow when you get into the set position (before beginning your stroke). Once you finish the stroke, see if the pennies are still there, if they fell off, you dropped your elbow.
The BSACA DVD's are phenominal instructional videos!

Zim

Not quite Zim, your assuming everyone plays bent over with a high elbow and upper arm. In fact many players are not low at all. Their upper arm is at a 45 degree angle or less. I easily have my chin 12 to 14 inches over the cue. Guess those people always fail this test or they need super glue. LOL

Rod

 

[CaptainJR]

Come on now folks. Not even one LOL at me arguing with myself. I try to be a little entertaining or funny from time to time on here and nobody ever says anything. I'll try to be more serious I guess. Sorry

 

[AceHigh]

Come on now folks. Not even one LOL at me arguing with myself. I try to be a little entertaining or funny from time to time on here and nobody ever says anything. I'll try to be more serious I guess. Sorry

ha ha, crazy old man

 

[recoveryjones]

how about this one............

is it acceptable to drop the elbow, using backhand english, all the while using one of hal's systems?????

that'll get em goin

VAP

LOL. I talked to H.H on the phone several times.He's a very interesting, funny, controversial and brilliant man.He said that he went to a handicap school and got the smartest of the retards and had him potting balls successfully within minutes with his aiming systems.

He also said that he could stand on one leg and pot balls and have people put a blanket in front of the pocket and still make balls.And the truth of the matter is,is that he's not bullshitting.People who have encountered him in person say he pots balls with great success from all over the table.RJ


come on VA, this threads just got going.....time for you or perhaps DM to throw some more gas on the fire

 

[vapoolplayer]

Not quite Zim, your assuming everyone plays bent over with a high elbow and upper arm. In fact many players are not low at all. Their upper arm is at a 45 degree angle or less. I easily have my chin 12 to 14 inches over the cue. Guess those people always fail this test or they need super glue. LOL

Rod

actually from what i've noticed with the BSACA.............you're gonna need to revamp your entire stroke........because you're WRONG................LOL

sorry zim, had to poke fun

VAP

 

[chefjeff]

Jeff...I think you should delete this post IMMEDIATELY! If DCP has a chance to read it, and especially if he's having a very bad night on the table, no telling what he might do with this "noose" idea.

lol...I've thought of that as I've looked at it hanging from the ceiling. Of course, my thought wasn't of DCP but of my cat right after I find chalk on the floor of the pool room and kitten tracks on the cloth. (I'm kidding!!!)

Jeff Livingston

 

[drivermaker]

time for you or perhaps DM to throw some more gas on the fire

I prefer passing mine...it works just as well.

 

[ScottR]

Come on now folks. Not even one LOL at me arguing with myself. I try to be a little entertaining or funny from time to time on here and nobody ever says anything. I'll try to be more serious I guess. Sorry

I thought someone highjacked your ID. Then I got it. In between it sounded like my wife arguing with herself about which car to drive. I usually ignore it and take whatever car is left.

btw - it was funny and presented both sides of the argument!

 

[CaptainJR]

I thought someone highjacked your ID. Then I got it. In between it sounded like my wife arguing with herself about which car to drive. I usually ignore it and take whatever car is left.

btw - it was funny and presented both sides of the argument!

Thank you Scott

Personally I thought the funniest part was the last line (P.P.P.S.) when I confess truthfully that I don't even know if I drop my elbow and that I really don't want to know.

 

[recoveryjones]

I finally found a pool playing pro who does SPFF and no elbow drop(pretty much) to perfection.His name is Jeff Carter (a house pro ,Chicago Billiards Cafe) from Chicago.

I watched a match(Sands Regency 1995) between him and Mike Massey which was an accustats player review match.In this match Jeff Carter wins the lag and proceeds to break and run 5 racks in a row.In this particlar tape the cameraman usually showed the back cueing arm on almost every shot.

Jeff would do sets and often two or three re-sets and pauses before pulling the trigger.Other than the break,not once did I see him drop his elbow and even on the break he doesn't drop it much.A few shots were power shots and he didn't drop his elbow on those shots either.If the BCA instructors wanted a good sample pro to show what they are trying to teach, Joe(and the afformentioned tape) would be a great example.The way he ran off those five racks proved to me that you can get anywhere on the table without elbow drop.

Does all this mean I'm a converted born-again non elbow dropping SPFF devotee.No, not nessecarily so because I'd love to be able to shoot like Reyes,Bustamante,Strickland, Soquet, Archer etc etc and the rest of the seculiar heathanistic elbow dropping sinners...LOL.

It does prove to me(in watching Jeff Carter) that Scott Lee, Randy G,Cane,Steve and the rest of the SPFF,non elbow dropping evangilists do have some good merit in what they are trying to teach.Yes it's true folks. you don't have to drop your elbow to run 5 racks in a row, Jeff C proved it.

In open-mindedness I'm going to continue to try and work on ingraining SPFF and no elbow drop(or as little as possible) into my shooting style at least for a season.I'm kinda stuck at being an average A level player so I want to see if this takes me to the promised land(of consistency) because being stuck on the good ole plataeu isn't satisfactory to me anymore.I'll keep you posted. RJ

ps. Does anyone know Jeff Carter and what he's up to in the world of pool today? Does he teach?


........RJ still thinks that a healthy mix of no elbow drop, mixed in with occasional elbow drop for certain shots is probably the best solution.