Electronic scorekeeping

[Jodacus]

Any league players out there that think electronic scorekeeping might be better than the present methods? Seems to me a small program for a PC that could handle the input on league night and then e-mail the results would be a big step forward. Has this ever been considered and/or tried? What do you think?

 

[rcarson]

TAP unveiled a iPhone app that allows you to do that at nationals this year. Never used it so not sure if it is any good or not. I also think your league needs to be setup with it.

 

[janaka]

I think that with how many people have smart phones or tablets (ipad or blackberry or whoever) that in a short period of time there will be electronic scoring and submitting of results. As soon as I read the topic I was thinking my tablet would be perfect for this (only a small 7" BB one).

Pretty cool that TAP launched it, I wish I had leagues in my area, since I moved from Ontario there's no leagues here. So I did what I had to and am building a mancave

 

[chefjeff]

I'd like to see a pool light that could be used to keep score so the whole place could see it.

I think this would help spectators to enjoy watching more. That and a measel cue ball. Plus, just a teeny tiny bit of marketing the league to the bar patrons who don't play.

'Bout time a league got a phone app. VNEA could really use one, too.

Jeff Livingston

 

[krupa]

Any league players out there that think electronic scorekeeping might be better than the present methods? Seems to me a small program for a PC that could handle the input on league night and then e-mail the results would be a big step forward. Has this ever been considered and/or tried? What do you think?

I don't see where the improvement would be except in terms of convenience. An even then it's a pretty small improvement. It could be helpful in a 14.1 league I guess, but an APA bar league... I don't see what you gain. I wouldn't bring a laptop into the joints I play league matches and the smartphone "solution" would require people to have a smartphone, not everyone has or wants one. The smartphone solution would also require someone to develop the app for Android, iPhone, and Blackberry. (Could you imagine having to say, "Well, I'd like to play in your league but my phone doesn't run the score-keeping software.") Plus you would then have to learn the interface which may or may not be intuitive/easy to use. Also, what happens if the app crashes in the middle of a match? Do you want to go back and rekey everything in?

Also, in my leagues both teams keep score on paper and they have to agree and sign the score sheets at the end of the night. How would you do that in software?

To do it right, your "small program" is more complicated than you think and I don't think it's an overall improvement to the process.
You could do the whole thing directly through a web interface but you still need extra equipment (laptop, phone, tablet) that people might not have, and you still have the problem of both captains agreeing with the final results AND you don't have a paper trail in case the server crashes. To add another wrinkle, if the server is down for maintenance/problems when you play your match, the app would have to save the results on the client (i.e., your device), then try to upload them at a later time. The user can't be bothered to manually upload them later, so it has to do that automatically and keep trying until it works. But that's crazy so eventually the software has to tell you that it couldn't get the results uploaded. Then what!? What if it was stored on your device and you got crushed in your match. Will your opponents believe you that the app crashed and the results were lost?

So the questions to answer are:

1. What is wrong with the current approach?
2. How does a software-based solution fix it? Seriously... what is so wrong with the current solutions that you want to go down this road? I didn't even get into the fact that different leagues score things differently...

 

[chefjeff]

(snip)

So the questions to answer are:

1. What is wrong with the current approach?
2. How does a software-based solution fix it?

Cost reduction. That leaves more money for other good stuff.

Jeff Livingston

 

[krupa]

Cost reduction. That leaves more money for other good stuff.

Jeff Livingston

Who's cost? As I keep thinking about this, the software is getting more and more complicated, just to replace a piece of paper and pencil. If the league has to pay to develop the software (and they will), that cost will be pushed to the players.

 

[chefjeff]

Who's cost? As I keep thinking about this, the software is getting more and more complicated, just to replace a piece of paper and pencil. If the league has to pay to develop the software (and they will), that cost will be pushed to the players.

Currently someone has to go to each and every bar and pick up the paperwork and the money. This is costly.

Imagine if the paperwork and info and monies could be sent instantly for next to nothing.

Then there are all the future uses of such technologies that we can't even imagine yet.

The costs for the initial production of software is spread out forever. I'm sure the intital costs are high and that's why most leagues haven't done this yet, but big leagues such as VNEA and TAP, etc. better get on board or they'll soon be obsolete.

Jeff Livingston

 

[decent dennis]

Currently someone has to go to each and every bar and pick up the paperwork and the money. This is costly.

Imagine if the paperwork and info and monies could be sent instantly for next to nothing.

Then there are all the future uses of such technologies that we can't even imagine yet.

The costs for the initial production of software is spread out forever. I'm sure the intital costs are high and that's why most leagues haven't done this yet, but big leagues such as VNEA and TAP, etc. better get on board or they'll soon be obsolete.

Jeff Livingston

There goes another job to china,oops wrong thread

 

[krupa]

Currently someone has to go to each and every bar and pick up the paperwork and the money. This is costly.

This depends on the league. I know in our APA league, the results and money are sent in via snail mail. In my NAPA league the results are uploaded via a website by the local LO. But on league night, the individual teams keep score on paper.

Imagine if the paperwork and info and monies could be sent instantly for next to nothing.

It's not "next to nothing". You have to maintain computer infrastructure on both ends and that's not free.

Then there are all the future uses of such technologies that we can't even imagine yet.

Future uses of pool league score-keeping software?

The costs for the initial production of software is spread out forever.

"Forever" is a bit of an exaggeration. They initial costs are spread out over a couple years. But a) there are ongoing maintenance and bug-fixing costs and b) when next year's new technology that can't run current software is released, the whole process begins anew.

 

[SSlav]

What do you think happens after the score sheets are picked up from the pool hall?

They are entered into an "online scoresheet" by the LO or whoever. The interface and infrastructure are already there.

 

[krupa]

What do you think happens after the score sheets are picked up from the pool hall?

They are entered into an "online scoresheet" by the LO or whoever. The interface and infrastructure are already there.

Sure. Some of the infrastructure is there. To automate it further and deal with all of the possible and probable error conditions is where things get complicated.

Personally, I'm a big fan of using the right tool for the right job and I just don't see what the problem with paper score sheets are, especially when compared to doing it in software.

There are probably other things leagues can do to cut costs before going to a totally software-based score system.

 

[Black-Balled]

Who's cost? As I keep thinking about this, the software is getting more and more complicated, just to replace a piece of paper and pencil. If the league has to pay to develop the software (and they will), that cost will be pushed to the players.

Nobody is cost. Duh.

 

[Jodacus]

Not difficult

Both teams keep their own electronic score sheet and electronically sign ( acknowledge) the other teams score sheet at the end of the night. Balls and innings are entered by the push of a key and can be corrected just as easily. The software knows when the match is won and by whom automatically. Checking a box with a mouse is easier and a lot cleaner than with a pen or pencil. Players are selected from a team roster for each match. New players are typed in manually.

Electronics is the way to go, if it wasn't we would still be standing in line at the gas station waiting to pay cash for our gas instead of with a card at the pump.

 

[krupa]

Both teams keep their own electronic score sheet and electronically sign ( acknowledge) the other teams score sheet at the end of the night. Balls and innings are entered by the push of a key and can be corrected just as easily. The software knows when the match is won and by whom automatically. Players are selected from a team roster for each match. New players are typed in manually.

So now we need TWO laptops!? For the record, software-based scoring is entirely possible and not actually that hard (though the interface would be tricky on a smartphone). Intelligently handling all the possible error/failure conditions is what makes the software more complicated than you may think.

My opinion is simply that electronic scoring doesn't solve any major problem in paper scoring and therefore isn't worth the effort.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I know plenty of my league players ask all the time if it will ever get to a point where they would enter their scores directly into our system. The truth is, tablets haven't yet been integrated into our lives quite yet. They're still a novelty item. One day, I'm sure a poolroom will have a tablet-like device at every table that can be used for a plethora of things like ordering drinks, league records and score reporting and displaying current scores. However, I don't think any poolroom right now is interested in purchasing two dozen iPads at $500 a pop so they can get broken/stolen. I'm sure in the next couple of years, we'll start to see software roll out but assumed participation will not happen until tablets are readily provided. For that to happen, tablets (specifically iPads) have to be cheaper. It would also help if there were tablets that were designed for purposes such as poolrooms that had a more structured layout.

 

[ctyhntr]

Developing the software is a fixed one time cost. Unless you keep tinkering it.

Instead of an app, make a smartphone browser friendly web portal (480 x 640), and submit scores that way. Instead of reinventing the id/password wheel, add facebook or gmail authentication.

Who's cost? As I keep thinking about this, the software is getting more and more complicated, just to replace a piece of paper and pencil. If the league has to pay to develop the software (and they will), that cost will be pushed to the players.

 

[Goldy]

As comprehensive as the NAPA league is online, I'm sure they will be pushing a mobile end user input app at some point.

League Match reminders via SMS/Email/Facebook/Twitter would also be a plus.

 

[JMuck]

Well......I guess I will make myself vulnerable.

This is a compilation of some thoughts I shared with a couple of acquaintances within the last two years.Didn't get much feedback.I think the reason that a product like TAR doesn't flourish beyond what it does today is lack of exposure.Streaming to me is the end product without a bridge to reach it.

Roughly February 2010,
It seems to me the single biggest strength pool has going for it is the number of people that can be accessed over a given period of time in the places they play.Large square footage's with groups of people,sometimes large groups,congregating and participating in the game they love.Create a technological cool devise that is capable of accurate scoring and display,then network the devices.A by-product of the devise is to be able to then advertise.Advertising at this level now creates opportunities for products or businesses outside the billiard industry to access the captured audience.Create a completely separate revenue stream and a moderated distribution of that wealth,as in percentages provided for the house or possibly a dedicated slice to improve pro pool and its structure.Sponsorship from the ground up rather than holding out for some angel investor.The "Holy Grail",accurate and reproducible,real time scoring and display capable of accommodating all the various league systems. Gather data,organize the statistics in a compelling way and inform players.Advertise and BRAND,BRAND,BRAND.

When objectively looking at a pool room or bar,owners are basing how they function on available square feet of floor space.My assertion is that the space above the tables can be used more productively.The lighting system as used now seems antiquated.Introducing cameras for field registration and ball tracking would be a start.Things like break speed,a shot clock and maybe even foul recognition with replay and explanations may be possible.Or,who top pros are and where there from and mix in history blurbs just for fun.The whole idea is to make it functionally compelling,easy to use, provide instant feedback,increase interactivity,provide revenue and BRAND to all who enter the building weather they play or not.

Technologically this may seem like a lot to bite off and chew,but I believe this is a direction more people should be thinking towards.It doesn't have to be all encompassing at first but could be introduced and tweaked at a single location.Oh yea,don't underestimate the WOW factor.

Maybe the interface could be with a projection on the table rather than a piece of hardware like an iPad.

 

[Goldy]

There have been great advancements in video via TCP/IP which makes installation of cameras on tables rather simplified. A entry level IP camera at 720p HD runs about ~$100 wholesale, $300 Retail and can all be tied to a NAS drive accessed remotely.

When objectively looking at a pool room or bar,owners are basing how they function on available square feet of floor space.My assertion is that the space above the tables can be used more productively.The lighting system as used now seems antiquated.Introducing cameras for field registration and ball tracking would be a start.Things like break speed,a shot clock and maybe even foul recognition with replay and explanations may be possible.Or,who top pros are and where there from and mix in history blurbs just for fun.The whole idea is to make it functionally compelling,easy to use, provide instant feedback,increase interactivity,provide revenue and BRAND to all who enter the building weather they play or not.

Technologically this may seem like a lot to bite off and chew,but I believe this is a direction more people should be thinking towards.It doesn't have to be all encompassing at first but could be introduced and tweaked at a single location.Oh yea,don't underestimate the WOW factor.

Maybe the interface could be with a projection on the table rather than a piece of hardware like an iPad.