No, I have not. I am going to though.
When a player's only option is to take a wild kick at a ball, I think it makes for weak competition. I think it could be better.
Eliminating Ball in Hand
- Thread starter BeiberLvr
- Start date
No, I have not. I am going to though.
When a player's only option is to take a wild kick at a ball, I think it makes for weak competition. I think it could be better.
I'm fine with kicking.
Sure there's a bit of luck involved, but in today's game, kicking is definitely a skill.
I just think the result of a missed kick should be something other than ball in hand.
(It happens more frequent than everyone would like) A player flat out misses and leaves an opponent behind a ball. There should be a way to reduce the number kick shots and ball in hands taken while making the game faster and more strategic. The game would be better if there was another option.
Some have suggested the option of making a player shoot again after a miss. That does not reduce the number of kick shots or ball in hands. It only transfers them.
My thinking: It really does not matter whether a player is hid behind a ball through an opponent's safe, an opponent's miss, or the shooter's own bad position. It is all the same. There just must be a better option other than kicking and risking a ball in hand. (It used to be called two-shot-push-out. We are not going back.)
I will also add, I have got no ideas to even try out.
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Wow, you aren't asking for much :grin:. First off, I don't have anything against the current rules and not trying to start a debate with you or anyone else. I just want your thoughts on a few of my ideals and hope they don't come off as a knee-jerk reaction.
What are your thoughts on the following:
1. Player breaks from head spot to start game
2. Call pocket and call safeties and any ball not pocketed, made in wrong pocket, or pocketed on a called safety the incoming player has option to shoot or take BIH in the kitchen but can shoot in any direction. This does not eliminate BIH but would possibly put a strategic twist on things.
3. Pocketed balls on scratches get spotted and fouls the incoming players gets BIH in kitchen and able to shoot in any direction.
4. 3 fouls by same player, not consecutive, loses a game and incoming player has option to shoot or re-rack, does not get credited with a win.
Have a good day and best of luck with your events.
I haven't really given this much thought, but it popped into my head, so I'll share...
What if you left everything as is except that you could always give the shot back to the shooter? Then every defense and missed shot effectively becomes kind of like a push where you still contact the next OB and the player in the chair doesn't come to the table until they are happy with what they are stepping up to (or at least happy enough not to give it back).
I know it takes away the value of a lock-up safety, but honestly, most of those are more opportunity than skill anyways and 9-ball is supposed to be an offensive game. I'm sure this idea is totally broken in some way; it just hasn't come to me yet.
What if you left everything as is except that you could always give the shot back to the shooter? Then every defense and missed shot effectively becomes kind of like a push where you still contact the next OB and the player in the chair doesn't come to the table until they are happy with what they are stepping up to (or at least happy enough not to give it back).
I know it takes away the value of a lock-up safety, but honestly, most of those are more opportunity than skill anyways and 9-ball is supposed to be an offensive game. I'm sure this idea is totally broken in some way; it just hasn't come to me yet.
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i havent read 6 pages of posts in this topic, but i will say i watched an old match between earl and mike massey from the 90s i think and they were playing shoot again, and it was pretty darned entertaining if you enjoy lots of shotmaking.
I don't know about anybody else but this intrigues me. I am going to give it a try.
I would be down for #4, but what happens when the player that 3 fouled is at 0 games?
I think it would be too much of a hassle to go negative with the score.
I figured it must have been at least tried before. Seems like Earl would love that sort of game.
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Great question. My original thought was to give the offending player a negative score but I would also agree a negative score would be a hassle to keep count of and under these circumstances a game would need to be awarded to the other player and eliminates any chance of being creative here. At the end of the day it's what two opposing players agree to play by and it don't matter what anyone else says or thinks.
Have a good day.
Giving ball in hand does speed up the game, but the safety play takes away some of the incentive to go for it or break out trouble balls during a run out. Lessening the availability of ball in hand may be an incentive to take tougher shots and getting out.
One idea is to not award BIH for a foul. Shooting out of the kitchen on a scratch or making the player shoot again, if they don't hit the ball and drive something to a rail, could be an option. Another foul would be BIH.
The problem I see with this is that, if a player doesn't give up BIH by not hitting the object ball, they would just roll the cue ball out into the clear where they can hit the ball. In effect, a push out where the incoming shooter has the option to pass it back or shoot it. This is two shot foul 9 ball.
A different option might be to make any three fouls per game by a player a BIH award. This would satisfy the safety players and kicking aficionados. :grin:
Best,
Mike
One idea is to not award BIH for a foul. Shooting out of the kitchen on a scratch or making the player shoot again, if they don't hit the ball and drive something to a rail, could be an option. Another foul would be BIH.
The problem I see with this is that, if a player doesn't give up BIH by not hitting the object ball, they would just roll the cue ball out into the clear where they can hit the ball. In effect, a push out where the incoming shooter has the option to pass it back or shoot it. This is two shot foul 9 ball.
A different option might be to make any three fouls per game by a player a BIH award. This would satisfy the safety players and kicking aficionados. :grin:
Best,
Mike
The rules were "ball in hand" on any foul which did add to the shot-making
Yes, this tournament was held in Memphis Ten. -. Roger Griffis ended up winning against either Earl or Mike Massey in the finals.....I think I finished 4th or 5th. The rules were "ball in hand" on any foul which did add to the shot-making, but also required strategic "roll the balls" shots....."Lucky 9 Ball," however it did have some entertaining elements for sure.
Yes, this tournament was held in Memphis Ten. -. Roger Griffis ended up winning against either Earl or Mike Massey in the finals.....I think I finished 4th or 5th. The rules were "ball in hand" on any foul which did add to the shot-making, but also required strategic "roll the balls" shots....."Lucky 9 Ball," however it did have some entertaining elements for sure.
One-Foul-Ball-in-Hand may not actually speed things up. BIH is so rewarding that players tend to play safeties (rather than play a ball). Players may be playing an inordinate amount of safeties as a result. I think the game is much improved if the players shoot more often at difficult shots and the game was to move along faster, Texas Express may not be accomplishing its original intent.
Let's take a look at a rack comparing one foul rules to two foul rules.
One Foul:
Player A runs 1-4. Plays safe on the 5
Player B kicks and misses.
Player A runs out.
Two Foul:
Player A runs 1-4. Doesn't have a shot on the 5, so he pushes to a bank shot.
Player B gets out of his seat, and assesses the situation. Passes shot back.
Player A goes for the bank (misses) and plays a two way shot leaving the CB safe.
Player B pushes out to a thin cut
Player A gets up and shoots the shot, but hangs the ball in the pocket.
Player B runs out.
One foul might not be the best rules, but it's certainly the fastest, at least when compared to two foul.
I think it used to be. You are assuming that the strategies for both one and two-foul are the same. They are not. Where it makes sense to shoot a particular shot in two-foul, it makes sense to play safe and try to earn a BIH in one-foul. The trend is leaning toward more and more safeties (in one-foul), slowing the game down.
I want to add: I am not advocating two-foul. I think it is possible that there is a third option that could be faster and require more thought and skill.
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You have a point if we're talking about weaker players, but I'm strictly talking about the best of the best. At that level...
Great Safety = better chance at ball in hand.
Ball in hand = run out
It's very rare to see a rack between two of today's great players with more than 2 safeties in a rack.
Your post is not clear. Please explain the rules (shoot again) and how they impacted play.
Maybe imparting a variation of Black Ball rules to 9 ball would be interesting.
- If a player doesn't make a legal hit on the lowest ball, the incoming player shoots as the balls lie, but gets a free shot. Meaning they can contact or pocket any other ball on the table. If they pocket the 9, it spots up.
- All CB scratches result in BIH behind the line. No free shot to the incoming player. The lowest ball may be shot even if it's behind the line.
- If a player doesn't make a legal hit on the lowest ball, the incoming player shoots as the balls lie, but gets a free shot. Meaning they can contact or pocket any other ball on the table. If they pocket the 9, it spots up.
- All CB scratches result in BIH behind the line. No free shot to the incoming player. The lowest ball may be shot even if it's behind the line.
I just can't get by having to kick at balls. It just seems that there would be a more strategic and skilled way to play other than one-foul without having to go to two-foul. What you describe above does get rid of BIH and does go a long way to getting rid of the incentive to play safe.
Rules that are good should not only work well for a tournament match, they should also work well for a gambling match.
Speaking of Ball in Hand....check out Mike seigal's new league. Handicap is crazy but sounds interesting. If your a -1(professional) or 0 you get no ball in hands except on a legit foul. If you are a 1 to a 6 (6 being really bad) you get ball in hand anytime your handicap inn the match except the 8 ball. So if you are 2,3,etc you get that many ball in hands per game in a race to 5. Crazy sh###t eh! Sounds fair to me but I probably wont agree after I loose to a lower ranked player. I belive the idea is promote runouts, so if a person is not good with positioning the cue ball they can take advantage. Im willing to give it a try. And only one professional is allowed per team. Check it out. Google it.